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What’s Out In Scripture?

Pah

Pah

Uber all member
From the magazine of the same name - http://www.hrc.org/scripture/June4.asp

Acts 2:1-21 dramatically portrays the story at the heart of Pentecost Sunday. The passage celebrates the movement of the Spirit to birth an inclusive Christian movement. The church depicted here welcomes as beloveds of God those once considered strangers, even enemies of God. Time and again, the church has been transformed by outsiders, first by non-Galilean Jews, then by Gentiles and in our own time, by the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community.
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On Pentecost many of the devout insiders who heard Peter’s message were shocked that God’s Spirit was being poured out “upon all flesh” (Acts 2:17) just as some contemporary Christians refuse to accept that LGBT people of faith are being empowered by the Spirit to claim their rightful place in church and society. However, that first Pentecost the outsiders (Acts 2:9-11) heard the message loud and clear even though they did not hear it in Peter’s language. Rather, they heard and received the good news within their own cultural language and context.
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Read Ezekiel 37:1-14. Many a pastor is used to preaching to old, dried-out bones, both figuratively and literally (Ezekiel 37:1-3). For LGBT people, our bones have seen hard times and are dried out from oppression and the ongoing warfare against our bodies and spirits. Countless numbers are closeted in “graves” while hoping for the day of putting on new flesh and coming out from the grave.

The good news is that the Spirit liberates and brings new life to those who have been buried in pain and grief and left for dead (Ezekiel 37:12-14). Even old, worn-out arguments and useless debates can be transformed into life-giving messages, embodied in acts of justice and compassion that offer hope, respect and encouragement.
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God stands ready to fill open hands in Psalms 104:24-34. Without God’s breath, all hope is dead (Psalms 104:29). Therefore, any liberation is found and centered on a God ready to stand on the side of justice so as to create a new thing. When there is justice as right relationship between persons, creation and God — people have cause to rejoice!
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With the birth of any new creation, there is pain and “groaning in labor” (Romans 8:22). Romans 8:22-27 declares that for pain and suffering to be productive, it must aim at wholeness and liberation. Creative labor produces “the redemption of our bodies” (Romans 8:23) renewal for individuals and for communities.

It is the Spirit that helps us in our weakness during this protracted birthing process (Romans 8:26-27). The Spirit’s encouragement is welcome because we live constantly in the struggle, catching glimpses here and there of justice and new life, but also encountering much resistance and many obstacles. Even though LGBT people and our allies trust that justice is on our side and that new life is about to emerge in the world, the moment of delivery is both “soon” and “far off.” Many of us feel that tension deeply and “groan in travail,” hoping against hope.
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In John 15:26-27, 16:4b-15, Jesus promises to send the Spirit, the Advocate of truth, so that we will not be alone. For those who become new creations, this good news is that the Spirit overcomes the forces of this world which attempt to keep the oppressed silent, repressed, closeted or in despair (John 16:8-9). Those once dried-out and crushed bones that took on flesh, through Christ’s Spirit, can now find the hope and strength to truly be a new creation in the here and now, not just in the hereafter. As theologian James B. Nelson writes in The Intimate Connection, “If we do not know the gospel in our bodies, we may not know it at all.”
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As I've often said before, if you deny the Holy Spirit working in others you deny the Holy Spirit himself. And of course that leads to denying Christ through the Trinity.

To deny the Spirt moving in the flesh of the gay community to disavow yourself as Christian.
 
M

mattp

Member
that is an interesting comment, but do you really believe that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same person?
 
Pah

Pah

Uber all member
mattp said:
that is an interesting comment, but do you really believe that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same person?
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Yes (with qualifications - I'm an atheist), but the question is off topic to the thread
 
D

dan

Well-Known Member
So sociological trends and a metaphorical application of the Bible completely change God's view on sin? Now God bends to suit our desires instead of the other way around.

What can we do about adultery? The world's pretty much ok with adultery, so let's take a look at some parallels in the Bible so we can change that too...
 
Pah

Pah

Uber all member
dan said:
So sociological trends and a metaphorical application of the Bible completely change God's view on sin? Now God bends to suit our desires instead of the other way around.

What can we do about adultery? The world's pretty much ok with adultery, so let's take a look at some parallels in the Bible so we can change that too...
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If the Holy Spirit is to be believed, and the words of Jesus are to be believed, why isn't a newer revelation to be believed. Why isn't it believed that the Holy Spirit can move in different directions.

We seem to have outgrown that the massace of other, non-believing races/tribes is now "outmoded". We seem to understand the Spirit's movement, at least in many churches and society in general, that slavery should not be tolerated nor women suppressed in society and in church.

Why do you doubt the Holy Spirit? - for isn't he the bedrock of revelation.
 
Mister Emu

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
To deny the Spirt moving in the flesh of the gay community to disavow yourself as Christian.
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You are right, the Holy Spirit does move within the homosexual community. He leads people to repentance of all our sins.
 
Pah

Pah

Uber all member
Mister Emu said:
You are right, the Holy Spirit does move within the homosexual community. He leads people to repentance of all our sins.
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Indeed he does. I'm not sure that you hear what he is saying in this case.
 
Pah

Pah

Uber all member
Mister Emu said:
I disagree ;)
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As with biiblical infanticide, genocide, slavery, the punishments of the laws, and suppression of women, current events will and reflection on history will both prove you wrong. sorry1:
 
Smoke

Smoke

Done here.
Mister Emu said:
He leads people to repentance of all our sins.
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Since sin -- in the sense of offending God or violating his precepts -- is an entirely subjective term, is there any objective reason why it should be less offensive to say that it's a sin to be gay than to say that it's a sin to be Christian?

My renunciation of Christianity has had some effect on my beliefs, but I rejected Christianity entirely for ethical reasons. May I dare to hope that other Christians will see the error of their ways and make a similar ethical decision?

May I define "sin" in terms of ethics instead of in terms of divine decree? If so, may I express my conviction as the hope that people will repent of the sin of Christianity?
 
Mister Emu

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
As with biiblical infanticide, genocide, slavery, the punishments of the laws, and suppression of women, current events will and reflection on history will both prove you wrong. sorry1
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:no:

Once again, I disagree. Even though the majority of Christendom were to condone homosexuality, only God can prove me wrong. The NT teaches that women and men are equal before God, teaches that children are important to God, teaches that punishing someone based on OT proscription is hypocritical. I seem to remember, but I can't think of the place(will have to search) that it also teaches that slavery is wrong. It also teaches that homosexuality is a sin before God.


is there any objective reason why it should be less offensive to say that it's a sin to be gay than to say that it's a sin to be Christian?
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I am confused, it wouldn't really offend me at all if you said christianity were a sin...

May I define "sin" in terms of ethics instead of in terms of divine decree?
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Go for it.
 
D

dan

Well-Known Member
Pah said:
If the Holy Spirit is to be believed, and the words of Jesus are to be believed, why isn't a newer revelation to be believed. Why isn't it believed that the Holy Spirit can move in different directions.

We seem to have outgrown that the massace of other, non-believing races/tribes is now "outmoded". We seem to understand the Spirit's movement, at least in many churches and society in general, that slavery should not be tolerated nor women suppressed in society and in church.

Why do you doubt the Holy Spirit? - for isn't he the bedrock of revelation.
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I don't doubt any of that, but where is it written or revealed that this is the particular sin that is to be turned around. Isn't it entirely possible that man could just be using that open door to push his own agenda through?

Keep in mind that it is my church that believes in continuing revelation. If you want to go against the Bible that's fine with me (I don't, but you can do whatever you want), but just don't ever use the Bible to try to knock my faith down again, because you're calling it an amendable document in this post.
 
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