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Men and women... equal salaries for similar jobs in Saudi Arabia?

Debater Slayer

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
... while many (possibly most) Saudi women are discouraged from pursuing a career except in very specific fields, and even then, many are just expected to stay at home.

Good job, Labor Minister: you have achieved "salary equality" for women in the half a dozen jobs they are barely allowed to do in your country.
 
S

Smart_Guy

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Premium Member
Nah, there is a start for everything. Looking down at small starts as insignificant because they are done by those we don't like is a negative behavior. One must have an eye at the smallest changes and have hope in one day bigger changes see light.
 
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Thana

Thana

Lady
Smart_Guy said:
And I quote from the article:
"Saudi Arabia has banned gender-based salary discrimination between men and women working in similar jobs, one of the new regulations announced by Labor Minister Adel Fakieh."

https://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/07/12/157343.html

The government also plans to replace men with women in all lingerie shops and women’s clothing stores, the article includes.
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Smart_Guy said:
Nah, there is a start for everything. Looking down at small starts as significant because they are done by those we don't like is a negative behavior. One must have an eye at the smallest changes and have hope in one day bigger changes see light.
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Women can barely interact with men. They are limited in how effective of workers they can be, not because they are limited but because they are forced to be. They cannot even shake hands with their fellow male co-workers, And they still are required to be escorted outside of their home by a man. Barely 15% of the workforce is made up of women, and now that companies can't pay them less what incentive do they have to hire women or consider them as equally effective as their male counterparts?

It's not a start. Letting women leave the country of their own volition, that's a start. One I'd gladly celebrate.
 
S

Smart_Guy

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Premium Member
Thana said:
... And they still are required to be escorted outside of their home by a man.
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Wrong. People should stop allowing plain words and thoughtless gossip to fool them. If you have wrong information in this point, then what related you further say could be just as wrong. But thank you for sharing an opinion anyway.
 
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Thana

Thana

Lady
Smart_Guy said:
Wrong. People should stop allowing plain words and thoughtless gossip to fool them. If you have wrong information in this point, then what related you further say could be just as wrong. But thank you for sharing an opinion anyway.
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It's not thoughtless gossip. Women require Mahrams for various things, including travel outside the home. So in other, simpler terms, they require an escort. And I'm not talking about a trip to the grocery store (obviously) but distant travel in general.
And nothing I said was wrong, which is why I was so unimpressed with the OP. Saudi Arabia is a million miles away from equality, And I don't think saying anything different is at all helpful to the cause.
 
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Smart_Guy

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Premium Member
Thana said:
It's not thoughtless gossip. Women require Mahrams for various things, including travel outside the home. So in other, simpler terms, they require an escort. And I'm not talking about a trip to the grocery store (obviously) but distant travel in general.
And nothing I said was wrong, which is why I was so unimpressed with the OP. Saudi Arabia is a million miles away from equality, And I don't think saying anything different is at all helpful to the cause.
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Nope, not obviously. You're twisting things. You said "are required to be escorted outside of their home by a man", and that's a wrong generalization. Distant travel is off-topic here. No need to twist the thread for reasons I don't know what, that you have in mind.

It is wrong. Ever been to Saudi Arabia to confirm your claim? It is a thoughtless gossip. Women roam around in shopping malls and in their working places all day long here. Or do you think men don't work and escort women where they work too? That's off-topic anyway.

And I didn't talk about equality in general. The thread is about enforcing equal "pay" only. If you have other problems with Saudi Arabia, you are welcome to start other threads about it. I personally welcome it. I'm not defending them or anything. No need to twist this thread for things you have in mind against Saudi Arabia.

As for the subject at hand, if it is not a start as you claimed, then you are only implying that enforcing equal pay is wrong.

Now, you have anything more on topic, which is, by the way, banning gender-based salary discrimination between men and women?
 
Thana

Thana

Lady
Smart_Guy said:
Nope, not obviously. You're twisting things. You said "are required to be escorted outside of their home by a man", and that's a wrong generalization. Distant travel is off-topic here. No need to twist the thread for reasons I don't know what, that you have in mind.

It is wrong. Ever been to Saudi Arabia to confirm your claim? It is a thoughtless gossip. Women roam around in shopping malls and in their working places all day long here. Or do you think men don't work and escort women where they work too? That's off-topic anyway.

And I didn't talk about equality in general. The thread is about enforcing equal "pay" only. If you have other problems with Saudi Arabia, you are welcome to start other threads about it. I personally welcome it. I'm not defending them or anything. No need to twist this thread for things you have in mind against Saudi Arabia.

As for the subject at hand, if it is not a start as you claimed, then you are only implying that enforcing equal pay is wrong.

Now, you have anything more on topic, which is, by the way, banning gender-based salary discrimination between men and women?
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You're the one who mentioned it being a start, And I assumed you meant a start towards equality. Is that not what this thread is supposed to be about? Because if it was specifically about gender-based salary discrimination wouldn't you have mentioned that instead of bringing up laws specifically about gender issues in Saudi Arabia?

And I wasn't intending to twist things, I'm sorry if I came off wrong, I obviously don't think that men spend all their time taking women places. But male escorts are required in some circumstances, that is the truth and that's all I meant.

And all I was trying to say was that I don't think it's a good idea to praise these efforts because they don't actually help. Maybe one day when there is much more progress, but these issues are not the ones that need focus right now. Women being considered individuals and equal to men and all that entails, like driving themselves, long distance travel, being able to leave the country, being allowed to shake their bosses/coworkers hand, actively being desired to join the work-force and so on. Those are a start, but not this.
 
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Smart_Guy

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Premium Member
Thana said:
You're the one who mentioned it being a start, And I assumed you meant a start towards equality. Is that not what this thread is supposed to be about? Because if it was specifically about gender-based salary discrimination wouldn't you have mentioned that instead of bringing up laws specifically about gender issues in Saudi Arabia?

And I wasn't intending to twist things, I'm sorry if I came off wrong, I obviously don't think that men spend all their time taking women places. But male escorts are required in some circumstances, that is the truth and that's all I meant.

And all I was trying to say was that I don't think it's a good idea to praise these efforts because they don't actually help. Maybe one day when there is much more progress, but these issues are not the ones that need focus right now. Women being considered individuals and equal to men and all that entails, like driving themselves, long distance travel, being able to leave the country, being allowed to shake their bosses/coworkers hand, actively being desired to join the work-force and so on. Those are a start, but not this.
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So I understand that you're saying enforcing, or even considering, a gender-based equal pay is not a good thing and don't actually help, something that the West and probably Europe are complaining about, and that saying it is useless in such a culture. If that's your opinion, I'm obliged to respect it in a general sense.

I also respect that you finally decided to say "male escorts are required in some circumstances" this time, instead of the generalizing statement earlier. But it is not within the subject at hand, so I'll just thank you for sharing it.
 
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Thana

Thana

Lady
Smart_Guy said:
So I understand that you're saying enforcing, or even considering, a gender-based equal pay is not a good thing and don't actually help, something that the West and probably Europe are complaining about, and that saying it is useless in such a culture. If that's your opinion, I'm obliged to respect it in a general sense.

I also respect that you finally decided to say "male escorts are required in some circumstances" this time, instead of the generalizing statement earlier. But it is not within the subject at hand, so I'll just thank you for sharing it.
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No.
We've progressed to the point where the issue is relevant. But in your country? Women don't even make up a quarter of your workforce, and are not allowed to work any job. Only specific jobs are allowed. It's like skipping ahead, it's not helpful. You need to tackle the issues of getting women employed, getting women equal opportunity, then getting women equal pay. That's the process the West went through, at any rate.

Otherwise, what reason do companies in Saudi Arabia have for employing women who have cultural and religious limitations on the work they are allowed to do and how effective they can be? Especially when hiring a man is easier, culturally expected, and has no limitations on the work he can do or the people he can interact with.
 
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Smart_Guy

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Premium Member
Thana said:
No.
We've progressed to the point where the issue is relevant. But in your country? Women don't even make up a quarter of your workforce, and are not allowed to work any job. Only specific jobs are allowed. It's like skipping ahead, it's not helpful. You need to tackle the issues of getting women employed, getting women equal opportunity, then getting women equal pay. That's the process the West went through, at any rate.

Otherwise, what reason do companies in Saudi Arabia have for employing women who have cultural and religious limitations on the work they are allowed to do and how effective they can be? Especially when hiring a man is easier, culturally expected, and has no limitations on the work he can do or the people he can interact with.
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Yes, I understand :)
 
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