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Wondering About Forgiveness

Akivah

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Spockrates said:
I want to learn about different religious beliefs. Not sure, but I'm thinking that comparing ideas about something we all have in common--forgiving--might open my eyes a little. So please tell me:

• What's your religion?
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Conservative Judaism

Spockrates said:
• What do you believe forgiveness is?
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It is part of Teshuvah (repentance). It is the act of being pardoned for errors you made against another person or against G-d.

Spockrates said:
• When do you believe you should forgive and when should you not forgive?
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Repentance is not granted just by asking. The person that wants to repent must do several actions before they can be forgiven. First, they must admit what they did wrong. Second, they must offer restitution to the person wronged. Third, they must promise not to repeat the action. Lastly, they ask for forgiveness from the wronged party.

If the party that made the error does not do any of this, then they haven't earned forgiveness.

Spockrates said:
If you want, feel free to cite a text from a religious author, so I may look it up myself.
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Teshuvah is mostly covered in the Talmud. I don't have references.
 
Spockrates

Spockrates

Wonderer.
allfoak said:
You ask question after question of people as if you are studying them, rather than looking for answers for yourself, which is what you claim to be doing.
Not sure if anyone actually knows your position on the subject, which means that we all take the time to answer your questions and you go away leaving us wondering if you ever heard anything that was said.
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It seems I've given you the wrong impression, as Socrates did when he employed his Socratic method. To one who misunderstood him, he said:

"You come to me as though I professed to know about the questions which I ask, and as though I could, if I only would, agree with you. Whereas the fact is that I enquire with you into the truth of that which is advanced from time to time, just because I actually do not know! So when I have enquired, I will say whether I agree with you or not, but please then to allow me time to reflect."
(Charmides)

The truth is I really don't understand what you yourself are trying to tell me. Others I do understand, but I'm not at all sure I agree, yet. That is, for some--such as yourself-- I'm trying to learn what they believe, for I don't yet know. For others, I'm trying to learn why they believe, for they have shown me what, but I don't yet grasp why. For others I hope to soon discern if why they believe is a good reason why I should believe too.

You see, I asked you to give a simple yes or no answer to this question: "Is forgiving merely a feeling and never something I say or do?" I'm still waiting for you to say yes or no. But if you'd rather not tell me, that's OK, I'm willing to follow you and learn your way. Only don't be dismayed if I don't take what you believe and make it my own. For you see, I can't take what I don't know.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Akivah said:
Third, they must promise not to repeat the action.
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I understand that to promise something is akin to swearing which I am sure is wrong according to my understanding of it.

Lastly, they ask for forgiveness from the wronged party.
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There are two ways that might go.

If the party that made the error does not do any of this, then they haven't earned forgiveness.
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If it is true that forgiveness is something that is earned then I am wrong about it being the same thing as love is.
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
allfoak said:
You ask question after question of people as if you are studying them, rather than looking for answers for yourself, which is what you claim to be doing.
Not sure if anyone actually knows your position on the subject, which means that we all take the time to answer your questions and you go away leaving us wondering if you ever heard anything that was said.
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His username is "Spockrates." ;)
 
Spockrates

Spockrates

Wonderer.
allfoak said:
At least so you can see them.
It is for your benefit not ours.
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No problem. I see two contrary ideas about forgiveness: (1) It is what someone thinks or feels, but never what someone says or does. (2) It is not only what someone thinks and feels, but also what someone says or does. I'm not sure what definition is true, or if there is a third possibility. So that's why I'm asking.

[emoji4]
 
allfoak

allfoak

Alchemist
@Spockrates

As for what i know, i have given you a glimpse of this through an exercise of the imagination.
There is enough information contained in those posts than most are willing to consider.
I can assure you that your question was answered thoroughly.
I am sorry if you are unable to understand something that a child would be able to grasp it is so simple.
 
Spockrates

Spockrates

Wonderer.
Akivah said:
Conservative Judaism

It is part of Teshuvah (repentance). It is the act of being pardoned for errors you made against another person or against G-d.

Repentance is not granted just by asking. The person that wants to repent must do several actions before they can be forgiven. First, they must admit what they did wrong. Second, they must offer restitution to the person wronged. Third, they must promise not to repeat the action. Lastly, they ask for forgiveness from the wronged party.

If the party that made the error does not do any of this, then they haven't earned forgiveness.

Teshuvah is mostly covered in the Talmud. I don't have references.
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I think I'd enjoy reading the Talmud, Mishna and other writings of wise Jewish rabbis. I hope it's OK to say that perhaps Jesus read the Talmud?

Luke 17:1-4 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. So watch yourselves.“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

It would seem he agrees, if indeed he is saying one must repent to be forgiven.

[emoji4]
 
Spockrates

Spockrates

Wonderer.
allfoak said:
@Spockrates

As for what i know, i have given you a glimpse of this through an exercise of the imagination.
There is enough information contained in those posts than most are willing to consider.
I can assure you that your question was answered thoroughly.
I am sorry if you are unable to understand something that a child would be able to grasp it is so simple.
Click to expand...

Allfoak: As for the time you gave trying to lift me up so the truth might not pass over my head, a sincerely appreciate it! May God as you understand him, her or it, greatly bless you! Thanks, my new virtual friend. Hope we meet again.

[emoji4][emoji868]
 
allfoak

allfoak

Alchemist
Spockrates said:
Allfoak: As for the time you gave trying to lift me up so the truth might not pass over my head, a sincerely appreciate it! May God as you understand him, her or it, greatly bless you! Thanks, my new virtual friend. Hope we meet again.

[emoji4][emoji868]
Click to expand...

4h0JjO7FnY4.jpg
 
Akivah

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Spockrates said:
I think I'd enjoy reading the Talmud, Mishna and other writings of wise Jewish rabbis. I hope it's OK to say that perhaps Jesus read the Talmud?
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You can say whatever you want about fictional characters. I believe there was a debate if Dumbledore was really gay.
 
Spockrates

Spockrates

Wonderer.
allfoak said:
That is not the impression given.

4h0JjO7FnY4.jpg
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Yes, but I didn't ask what forgiveness is not. I asked what it is. So one example of what forgiveness is, is found in Akivah's definition:

"[Forgiveness] is the act of being pardoned for errors you made against another person or against G-d." To me, this means our Jewish friend believes forgiving is something one does, since it is pardoning someone for a wrong he or she committed. Our friend also tells us forgiveness is not arbitrary. It requires conditions be met, such as the forgiven one first repenting and making restitution for the wrongs done.

So this is one good starting point for me. Having understood what Akivah believes forgiveness is, I may now inquire as to why Akivah believes this.
 
allfoak

allfoak

Alchemist
It seems your approach is not working very well.
Serious question, sorry if it offends.

Are you a sociopath?
 
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