How does religion hold up when faced with these questions?

lovesong said:

The video isn't available in the US.

The gods I believe in did not create the world, they simply have the power to make changes within it (bring rain, bloom a flower, ect.). This ideas that you presented are one of the reasons I left Christianity. I could not believe that a loving god would send people to hell, that a father would torture his children for for an eternity for disobeying. There were many other reasons I left, but this was certainly one of them.

My parents are not the same religion as me, I found my own path.

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Then I have a lot of respect for you.

Thana said:

Death is inevitable, it happens to us all. And it is only sad because we are selfish. You don't grieve because they are gone, you grieve because they are gone from you.

Death itself is not evil and it is not bad. It just is.

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Interesting theory, but if death is not bad then why are we, by human nature, extremely unhappy when someone dies? God, or the creator could have easily made it so we were happy when one of us died, especially of natural causes. Your argument that we are sad because we are selfish doesn't hold up because it is human nature and not learnt. God could have easily made is happy when a family member died.

So my argument to you would be this; if god wills a baby to die, that's not evil, fine, by your argument.

Why does god or the creator make us so miserable as parents and the friends/family of the person who died naturally miserable when it happens.

George-ananda said:

I think a more acceptable understanding can be found in eastern/Indian religions.

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You always say that, but the Dharmic religions have their own glaring issues, many of which are the same or similar as the shortcomings of the Abrahamic religions.

Owneh said:

Interesting theory, but if death is not bad then why are we, by human nature, extremely unhappy when someone dies? God, or the creator could have easily made it so we were happy when one of us died, especially of natural causes. Your argument that we are sad because we are selfish doesn't hold up because it is human nature and not learnt. God could have easily made is happy when a family member died.

So my argument to you would be this; if god wills a baby to die, that's not evil, fine, by your argument.

Why does god or the creator make us so miserable as parents and the friends/family of the person who died naturally miserable when it happens.

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Except you are as a kid told about death. And we have funerals and make a big deal and people tell you how sorry they are for you and on and on, All learned behaviours on how we should feel about death.

It's not a natural reaction. It's an indoctrinated one.

Thana said:

Death is inevitable, it happens to us all. And it is only sad because we are selfish. You don't grieve because they are gone, you grieve because they are gone from you.

Death itself is not evil and it is not bad. It just is.

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Thana said:

Except you are as a kid told about death. And we have funerals and make a big deal and people tell you how sorry they are for you and on and on, All learned behaviours on how we should feel about death.

It's not a natural reaction. It's an indoctrinated one.

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There's no way. So what about when animals are sad when one of their pack or family dies, saying a distaste of death is a learned behavior is just wrong.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...rrogant-think-were-the-only-animals-who-mourn

Do animals and other mammals also learn to grieve?



http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/178/6/580.2

http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20150909-many-animals-can-become-mentally-ill

Grieving is not a learned behavior.

Not to mention, if a child is born, and brought into this world and is taught to grieve and be sad when someone dies, in an extreme way, as evident in parents after their child is killed, then how can you say god is not to blame but humans are? The child is innocent, and god has given the child the natural ability to learn this behaviour through no choice of the childs own. The child cannot say at 10 year old "death is ok, it's not sad" or make his/her own decisions.

God knows, that if a child is brought up in society it will take up its norms, behaviours ect as he designed us to do so, so he also knows that if he does not make it human nature to accept death joyfully, then the child and anyone in society will grieve, through no choice of their own. It is not the child being selfish, or the parent being selfish, is it how they are taught and they have no say in the matter. If your mother died, or sibling, or child (if you have them, of course.) would you be sad? If yes, are you being selfish and are you to blame for your emotions? No.

It doesn't matter if grievance is a learned reaction or not, the way we grieve and the choice to be selfish or not is not made by the person grieving and therefore god is to blame for their sadness for not changing it - and the original argument holds.

Not to mention, to overcome societies norms and the learned behaviours you need to be extremely emotionally intelligent and intelligent as a whole, and not all people simply have the capability to overcome their learned behaviours. Is that their fault that their intelligence does not allow them? Or is it gods for making them that way? I say the latter.

Owneh said:

There's no way.

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Oh.
well I guess that wraps it up then.
I mean YOU say there is no way.....

Move long folks, nothing more to see here.

Mestemia said:

Oh.
well I guess that wraps it up then.
I mean YOU say there is no way.....

Move long folks, nothing more to see here.

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I literally just backed up what I said with proof, proof and more proof. How can you even BEGIN to contemplate that it's me saying that alone? Honestly, read the rest of the post you moron. So if anyone gives an opinion, then backs it up with proof you're going to sit down and waste away? I feel sorry for your ignorance and wasted life.

Owneh said:

therefore god is to blame for their sadness for not changing it - and the original argument holds.

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And we come full circle. God doesn't fix all your problems, therefore God is a bad guy. No personal responsibility, no questions as to whether or not you even deserve utopia. Typical.

Thana said:

And we come full circle. God doesn't fix all your problems, therefore God is a bad guy. No personal responsibility, no questions as to whether or not you even deserve utopia. Typical.

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Not me. Not my problems. Starvation. disease. Bone marrow cancer in children. I may not deserve utopia, I might not deserve anything, and I may deserve the suffering of eternal hell. But does the two year old toddler with bone marrow cancer deserve to die screaming in agony? This isn't about me, my problems or what I deserve. It's not about me at all, or me taking responsibility, it's about babies with torturing diseases, starvation across the world ect.

Owneh said:

Not me. Not my problems. Starvation. disease. Bone marrow cancer in children. I may not deserve utopia, I might not deserve anything, and I may deserve the suffering of eternal hell. But does the two year old toddler with bone marrow cancer deserve to die screaming in agony? This isn't about me, my problems or what I deserve. It's not about me at all, or me taking responsibility, it's about babies with torturing diseases, starvation across the world ect.

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And this is the basic ego-centrism and ultimate indifference of Christian beliefs, among other beliefs which try to justify the unjustifiable. They always see it as a way of God to provide opportunity for personal growth forgetting, thereby, the screaming of the children. Which are, if personal growth is so important, ultimately an acceptable price to pay.

Ciao

- viole

Owneh said:

Also, ask yourself this. If you're muslim, would you be a muslim if both of your parents were devout christians? Or the other way around? Substitute both religions to whatever, but if you deeply believe in a religion because of your parents or the people around you, why are you right in this instance but not right in the one(s) in which your influences are from a different religion?

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I have a hearing problem so cannot understand videos. One can be a Muslim even if none of the parents are Muslims and even the neighborhood is not Muslim. Europe has many examples of that. Many of these people who have converted to Islam have turned out to be terrorists or have gone to Syria and Iraq to join IS.

Owneh said:

Interesting theory, but if death is not bad then why are we, by human nature, extremely unhappy when someone dies? God, or the creator could have easily made it so we were happy when one of us died, especially of natural causes. Your argument that we are sad because we are selfish doesn't hold up because it is human nature and not learnt. God could have easily made is happy when a family member died.

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Empathy, even animals show it. But in many cases we are pleased by death (of our enemies) or are indifferent (on death of people with whom we have no relationship). Basically, we are selfish.

Saint Frankenstein said:

You always say that, but the Dharmic religions have their own glaring issues, many of which are the same or similar as the shortcomings of the Abrahamic religions.

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Such as? I didn't hear them in the OP video. I find that often those that find fault do not deeply understand eastern thought. Christianity (and I am still pro-Christianity) has its man-made dogma and understandings that if reasoned to their logical conclusions do not really stand up to modern reason as the OP points out. Its errors are in the man-made understandings that come from thousands of years back.

Owneh said:

Not me. Not my problems. Starvation. disease. Bone marrow cancer in children. I may not deserve utopia, I might not deserve anything, and I may deserve the suffering of eternal hell. But does the two year old toddler with bone marrow cancer deserve to die screaming in agony? This isn't about me, my problems or what I deserve. It's not about me at all, or me taking responsibility, it's about babies with torturing diseases, starvation across the world ect.

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It is you and you. Who else is pained, if not you? Buddha gained enlightenment due to such empathy. Probably you will also.

I can't see the video, but based on the text, I imagine religion has a hard time stifling its yawns.

Owneh said:

If you are deeply religious, I want you to watch the video, tell me what you think or even just question it yourself.

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Reading your posts I see you place a lot of emphasis on the Problem of Evil.....I see the issue differently than you because of the more eastern views of reincarnation and the ultimate goal of life (Oneness with God0. Here is something I once wrote:

I look at life from the perspective that life is eternal and we are in the process of learning that. We live as individuals for eons and not one life. We all return to godhead in the end. If one could see one's life from separation from godhead through the eons to return to godhead then things and temporary sufferings make more sense. What we see as evil are very short temporary events in the grand scheme of things where each individual story ends in success; return to peace/bliss/awareness of godhead.

Plus Problem of Evil proponents look at good/bad events as happening randomly to people. Eastern thinkers believe a long series of cause/events (karma) causes things to be the way they are.

I also use the analogy of creation as some grand expansive multi-dimensional artwork. And human problem of evil proponents view from their little speck and dimensional perspective of the artwork and try to judge the entire artwork. Their view is too limited to be meaningful.

I think to understand the answer to the 'Problem of Evil' we need to start thinking in more eastern ways.

1) That we live for eons in a soul developing process; not one body's duration. In that perspective any suffering in one life is short and temporary in this grander view. And even an unfortunate life and death has lessons for that soul and for those seeing and interacting with the unfortunate life.

2) That such things are not as random as they appear. There is chain of cause and effect through time we can not see.

3) That those currently living an unfortunate life will have victory 'enlightenment' at the end of the challenges.

4) That it is God at the core of everything and it is He who experiences the temporary good and bad fortunes. It is ultimately not Him imposing it on other separate beings. It is His play/drama where He separates Himself from Himself and returns Himself to Himself but this play ends with a happy ending for all. In any great play/drama there is always drama/suffering in the middle.

So, before someone shows me a picture of a suffering, dying child; let me say all we can do is show compassion and do the best we can at the physical level. And we can also view this and comfort others with the understanding that there are better places than this world (if their belief system is compatible with that idea; if not we can only do what little we can).

Owneh said:

What do you say to this?

[video=youtube;-suvkwNYSQo]

[/video]

If god/Allah/whatever is real, then we shouldn't be worshipping them, but despise them. Honestly, if you believe in god then I don't know why you'd worship them. What kind of ****ed up being would create a race and then ask them to say thanks 6 times a day, or create a world which babies die the day they are born? This world isn't evil because of humanity, although we do play a part, but the evils of humanity aren't a TOUCH on the evils of the one(s) who created this world.

If you are deeply religious, I want you to watch the video, tell me what you think or even just question it yourself.

Also, ask yourself this. If you're muslim, would you be a muslim if both of your parents were devout christians? Or the other way around? Substitute both religions to whatever, but if you deeply believe in a religion because of your parents or the people around you, why are you right in this instance but not right in the one(s) in which your influences are from a different religion?

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These are not unheard of questions are come from a very small, hateful place. Like Allah says in the Quran, "Which one of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?" People like Fry deny them all.

Can he not be grateful for having a working body, to live a well off life, to not have to beg and scratch for money. To be healthy in a general sense. If he is hypothetically believing in God for this argument, then surely he can not deny these bounties, similar things have been given to billions of people world wide.

We live in a world where the evil, the bad, the unjust is consistently highlighted but how about the every day miracles? I'm a medical student and I have seen a miracle almost every day spent in hospital. People walking who doctors said would never be able to, people recovering from infections they shouldn't have been able to, people surviving cancers doctors only gave 6 months too and so on and so forth.

Allah has blessed so many. Yes there are cases of immense tragedies around the world, natural disasters among them but that is how Allah has created nature. Tectonic plates move, the winds pick up, rain causes floods. That's nature. And even then, the vast majority of the human population is saved from teh worst of it.

Children die, again, another tragedy but Allah sends them straight to paradise. Eternal life, no pain, no disability, no envy, hunger, jealousy. Parents of such children will follow them into paradise too. A blessing through pain and hardship.

On top of all that, Allah has never once stated that this life is perfect. It's not meant to be. It's a struggle. Do we hate and curse and admonish our parents for making us do our homework so that we can have a successful life in the future? Do we hate them for not giving us what we want all the time? Wek now it is all for the better.

It always strikes me that the most well of seem to complain the most.

Owneh said:

Not me. Not my problems. Starvation. disease. Bone marrow cancer in children. I may not deserve utopia, I might not deserve anything, and I may deserve the suffering of eternal hell. But does the two year old toddler with bone marrow cancer deserve to die screaming in agony? This isn't about me, my problems or what I deserve. It's not about me at all, or me taking responsibility, it's about babies with torturing diseases, starvation across the world ect.

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And who are you to judge what they do and do not deserve? And are you not capable of helping them? Are we not all capable of helping them?

Is it really God letting them die or is it us? Do you blame God so that no one will blame you?

Tomorrows_Child said:

These are not unheard of questions are come from a very small, hateful place. Like Allah says in the Quran, "Which one of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?" People like Fry deny them all.

Can he not be grateful for having a working body, to live a well off life, to not have to beg and scratch for money. To be healthy in a general sense. If he is hypothetically believing in God for this argument, then surely he can not deny these bounties, similar things have been given to billions of people world wide.

We live in a world where the evil, the bad, the unjust is consistently highlighted but how about the every day miracles? I'm a medical student and I have seen a miracle almost every day spent in hospital. People walking who doctors said would never be able to, people recovering from infections they shouldn't have been able to, people surviving cancers doctors only gave 6 months too and so on and so forth.

Allah has blessed so many. Yes there are cases of immense tragedies around the world, natural disasters among them but that is how Allah has created nature. Tectonic plates move, the winds pick up, rain causes floods. That's nature. And even then, the vast majority of the human population is saved from teh worst of it.

Children die, again, another tragedy but Allah sends them straight to paradise. Eternal life, no pain, no disability, no envy, hunger, jealousy. Parents of such children will follow them into paradise too. A blessing through pain and hardship.

On top of all that, Allah has never once stated that this life is perfect. It's not meant to be. It's a struggle. Do we hate and curse and admonish our parents for making us do our homework so that we can have a successful life in the future? Do we hate them for not giving us what we want all the time? Wek now it is all for the better.

It always strikes me that the most well of seem to complain the most.

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Great post Tomorrows Child. And good for you pursuing medicine.

Tomorrows_Child said:

Allah has blessed so many.

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And cursed all the rest.

Owneh,

Welcome to the Forum! I couldn't see the video you posted but felt I could respond to your statement below regarding God as Creator and our worship of Him:

Owneh said:

As to why we should not worship the creator; it just seems deeply vain that a being would create a world and then expect or even want them to worship him/her/it. You don't see, for example, humans creating computer programs which are then expected to worship them, it seems from my perspective that if a being was to create a world, even if the world was magnificent and perfect, and wanted their creations to worship and thank them for simple being allowed to exist, that it seems pointless, vein and to what ends and means does this accomplish?

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For my part I see not just the concept of worship but rather "love".. You note that Jesus quoted from Torah as an answer to the greatest commandment:

'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

He is quoting Deuteronomy 6:5 of the Torah. So this is an ancient teaching and it is still a focus in the Baha'i Writings where Abdul-Baha describes four kinds of love... The love of the Creator for humanity..the created; The love of the created (humanity) for the Creator; The love of man for man; The love of God for God so in my view this more than "worship" ... Love can only exist from a choice ... a freedom to love, otherwise it is mere obedience or mechanical response as in a robotic response.

For detail of this teaching see:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PT/pt-59.html

Owneh said:

What do you say to this?...

If god/Allah/whatever is real, then we shouldn't be worshipping them, but despise them. Honestly, if you believe in god then I don't know why you'd worship them. What kind of ****ed up being would create a race and then ask them to say thanks 6 times a day, or create a world which babies die the day they are born? This world isn't evil because of humanity, although we do play a part, but the evils of humanity aren't a TOUCH on the evils of the one(s) who created this world.

If you are deeply religious, I want you to watch the video, tell me what you think or even just question it yourself.

Also, ask yourself this. If you're muslim, would you be a muslim if both of your parents were devout christians? Or the other way around? Substitute both religions to whatever, but if you deeply believe in a religion because of your parents or the people around you, why are you right in this instance but not right in the one(s) in which your influences are from a different religion?

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We live in a natural world and people die.

However, the Bible says YHVH murdered the innocent for the crimes of others. That is not acceptable, and tells me that the Bible is not the word of God, - but of man.

I agree with you on the worship thing. It would be like a mother pumping out some kids, and then saying kneel before me and worship, - I gave you life. And if you don't worship me, - I'm going to destroy you.

Remember, the Abrahamic religions are not the only religions.

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