• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why exactly do Jehovah's Witnesses evangelize?

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The old testament is for Jews, and it says so. Shunning is against the teachings of Jesus, as I have stated.

"Shunning is against the teachings of Jesus". Where is the Scripture? How about read Matthew 7:23? "Get away from me, you evil doers!" Yes, Jesus shunned unrepentant ones. That's the key: unrepentant.


And 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 -- that's in the New Testament -- gives us guidelines on 'removing' unrepentant ones.
Especially note vss.11-13. It's quite clear.

It doesn't have to be a permanent condition. In 2 Corinthians, Paul told the Christians there to "welcome him back" -- he had been saddened, and repented.
 

blue taylor

Active Member
Death, in the Bible, is "unconsciousness", "non-awareness", likened to "sleep." -- John 11:11-13; Acts of the Apostles 7:60; Psalms 146:3-4; Ecclesiastes 9:5; et.al. (This is way different than what is taught in most churches!)

Dead ones will live again, only when they will be resurrected (John 5:28-29; Acts of the Apostles 24:15. Note the future tense of the verbs, in both verses), which Jesus said will occur "in the Last Day." -- John 6:44.

And notice again John 5:28-29. When this Resurrection occurs in the future, where did Jesus say they will be coming from? From 'heaven'? From 'hell'? No....righteous and unrighteous will "come out" from the "memorial tombs"! And not zombie-like, but as normal humans.

Although, for a relative few, there are some chosen to be with Christ, as kings in heaven. Part of God's Kingdom. -- See Revelation 21:3-4...."a voice from the throne say, 'Look the tent of God is with mankind....no pain.....no death." Really, a fulfillment to the Lord's Prayer at Matthew 6:9-10, "Thy will be done...... on Earth."

You won't hear this in Christendom. But it is a very easy to understand truth.

Take care!
Death in the Bible depends on which scriptures you wish to quote.
 

blue taylor

Active Member
"Shunning is against the teachings of Jesus". Where is the Scripture? How about read Matthew 7:23? "Get away from me, you evil doers!" Yes, Jesus shunned unrepentant ones. That's the key: unrepentant.


And 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 -- that's in the New Testament -- gives us guidelines on 'removing' unrepentant ones.
Especially note vss.11-13. It's quite clear.

It doesn't have to be a permanent condition. In 2 Corinthians, Paul told the Christians there to "welcome him back" -- he had been saddened, and repented.
Paul the imposter again. There is no place in the words of Jesus where he shunned anyone.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I believe some of the churches are doing what Christ commanded, not all. Not every JW does everything Christ commanded either. If you think they do, you really are deceived. To think that every person on earth has been commanded to preach the gospel is absurd. For people to put their trust in someone that claim to be God's anointed and only channel to the world, but openly admits they can and will make mistakes is absurd. JW's don't put their trust in God or the Bible, they put their trust in what the 7 men in NY tell them.

How do I know that's true? The gentleman I study with, who has been a JW for 30 years, does not consult the Bible when asked a question. When I ask a question he has not been trained to answer, he says, "well lets see what it says" and opens his, "what does the Bible really teach" book. This is a man who has been a member of "God's organization", has been taught by "Jesus' appointed" slave, for 30 years and doesn't turn to the Bible to answer any questions, he turns to WT literature as his source and authority. He's not spreading the Bible gospel, he's spreading what the GB says the gospel is.

I have yet to have a conversation with a JW where they have not brought up the subject of bloodshed. It seems as though, when a JW starts seeing the truth, they have to get back on track and think about them not going to war. Why is that? Just like my friend, well be talking and I'll show him something from the Bible, and I can see him actually seeing what is says, then he immediately says, "but who are the only people that won't go to war?" JW's have to grab on to something when they start seeing the truth, and that's all they have, "we don't go to war, we don't kill".

What did Solomon say? The GB likes to use Solomon to support their doctrine.

Ecc 3:1-8 (ESVST) 1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
3 a time to kill, and a time to heal;
a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 a time to seek, and a time to lose;
a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 a time to tear, and a time to sew;
a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 a time to love, and a time to hate;
a time for war, and a time for peace.

Look at the justification, Deeje! Ignoring the "weightier matters of the Law"! Typical.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
But please show me a teaching of Jesus Christ that advocates bloodshed or participation in the wars of the nations...? How do we "love our enemies" with bombs and tanks and AK47's? Would you like to show me the clauses where Christ's teachings can be put aside for political agendas? o_O

Please show me a teaching of Jesus Christ that tells you not to accept blood transfusions.

Mar 7:14-16 (NKJV) 14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, " Hear Me, everyone, and understand:15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Look at the justification, Deeje! Ignoring the "weightier matters of the Law"! Typical.

Look Deeje, he thinks I'm under the law like JW's are. The law is just for JW's. They are the ones who have to work for their salvation. I'm not under the law, but under grace!

Rom 6:13-15 (ESVST) 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Paul the imposter again. There is no place in the words of Jesus where he shunned anyone.
Matthew 7:23 is Jesus' words.

So, even the New Testament -- at least the 14 books Paul wrote -- you will not accept? As if God can't control what is in His own word?
We have very little basis for agreement, then. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is out the window.

Happy searching.

So long.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Look Deeje, he thinks I'm under the law like JW's are. The law is just for JW's. They are the ones who have to work for their salvation. I'm not under the law, but under grace!

Rom 6:13-15 (ESVST) 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
It is a law (John 13:34-35) to "love your brothers"! It's very 'weighty', according to 1 John 3:10-15! But you give justification for war. LOL!
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Armageddon is God's WAR and that Jesus Christ leads God's TROOPS to KILL everyone who doesn't think the things the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses tell them to think.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
The "Bible Teach" Book is exactly what the title suggests....it shows people what "the Bible" teaches.

Really?

*** bh chap. 4 p. 39 par. 5 Who Is Jesus Christ? ***
5 In the first century C.E., the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth were fully convinced that he was the foretold Messiah. (John 1:41) One of the disciples, a man named Simon Peter, openly said to Jesus: “You are the Christ.” (Matthew 16:16) How, though, could those disciples—and how can we—be sure that Jesus really is the promised Messiah?

That's not true at all. What about John? He was sent to baptize and prepare the way for Jesus, wasn't he?

Jn 1:32-34 (ESVST) 32 And John bore witness: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. ' 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God."

But what did John say whilst in prison?

Luk 7:18-20 (ESVST) 18 The disciples of John reported all these things to him. And John, 19 calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to the Lord, saying, " Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?" 20 And when the men had come to him, they said, " John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, ' Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another? '"

LOL....John 1:41, which the WT is using to try and make their point, says nothing of the disciples being "FULLY CONVINCED" that He was the foretold Messiah.

Jn 1:40-41 (ESVST) 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Jesus was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which means Christ).

That just says, "one" of the two told his brother they found the Messiah. What about the other one who heard John? Doesn't say what he said or did.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
"While the earliest Christians endeavored to be good citizens, their faith prevented them from taking the life of another or from sacrificing their own lives for the State. The Encyclopedia of Religion states: “The early church fathers, including Tertullian and Origen, affirmed that Christians were constrained from taking human life, a principle that prevented them from participating in the Roman army.” In his book The Early Church and the World, Professor C. J. Cadoux writes: Up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least [161-180 C.E.], no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.

Why do members of the churches of Christendom not view things this way today? Because of a radical change that took place in the fourth century. The Catholic work A History of the Christian Councils explains:Many Christians, . . . under the pagan emperors, had religious scruples with regard to military service, and positively refused to take arms, or else deserted. The Synod [of Arles, held in 314 C.E.], in considering the changes introduced by Constantine, set forth the obligation that Christians have to serve in war, . . . because the Church is at peace (in pace) under a prince friendly to Christians.” As a result of this abandonment of Jesus’ teachings, from that time until now, the clergy of Christendom have encouraged their flocks to serve in the armies of the nations, although some individuals have taken a stand as conscientious objectors." ('96 WT)

Are these references in the WT from JW's or from Christendom?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Armageddon is God's WAR and that Jesus Christ leads God's TROOPS to KILL everyone who doesn't think the things the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses tell them to think.

Good point.
Also...

To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:

A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;

A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8


And in the NT...


"Soldiers are mentioned throughout the Gospels, and Jesus never treats them as sinful or wrong in carrying out their duties, nor does He command them to leave the service. John the Baptist tells them to be fair and honorable (Luke 3:14). In the Bible, several soldiers are also described as devout and faithful men (Acts 10:7; Matthew 8:5–13)."
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-fighting.html
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
LOL....this applied in Israel when God's nation had a well defined territory to defend. There was indeed a "time to kill" and "a time for war" back then, with God's sanction.

I think I understand now!

Ecc 3:1-8 (ESVST) 1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die; (for us now)
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted; (for us now)
3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; (not for us now)
a time to break down, and a time to build up; (for us now)
4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; (for us now)
a time to mourn, and a time to dance; (for us now)
5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; (for us now)
a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; (for us now)
6 a time to seek, and a time to lose; (for us now)
a time to keep, and a time to cast away; (for us now)
7 a time to tear, and a time to sew; (for us now)
a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; (for us now)
8 a time to love, and a time to hate; (for us and not for us)
a time for war, and a time for peace. (not for us and for us)


Is that something of how it goes?
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Good point.
Also...

To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:
A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8


And in the NT...


"Soldiers are mentioned throughout the Gospels, and Jesus never treats them as sinful or wrong in carrying out their duties, nor does He command them to leave the service. John the Baptist tells them to be fair and honorable (Luke 3:14). In the Bible, several soldiers are also described as devout and faithful men (Acts 10:7; Matthew 8:5–13)."
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-fighting.html


I just brought up Ecc 3:3 to Deeje, and this is the response I got,


LOL....this applied in Israel when God's nation had a well defined territory to defend. There was indeed a "time to kill" and "a time for war" back then, with God's sanction.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I believe the scriptures indicate that the faithful slave mentioned in Matthew and Luke is any believer(s) who are faithfully sharing the biblical message of Christ and of course as pointed out below no one really knows for certain they are considered a faithful slave until Christ returns bless and reward those who He says have been faithful.

Does it apply when "Christians" teach other "Christians" false doctrines?...because that is what is responsible for the fractured and disunited state of Christendom. (1 Cor 1:10) Protestants can't seem to agree on much except the false doctrines they brought with them from Catholicism in the reformation.
Their foundation is very shaky.

"Another difficulty arises when we consider that the Watchtower leaders have already declared themselves to be the “faithful and discreet slave," but when does Jesus declare them to be “faithful and discreet”? According to Matthew 24:45, He declares this when He returns. Therefore, it is nothing short of presumptuous and arrogant for someone to claim this position before Christ actually returns to bless those who are faithful and discreet.
Christ is already ruling in his kingdom. He gave a "sign of his presence" (not his "coming") because it was not going to be obvious to the world that he was now ruling except for the appalling events happening in the world. (Matt 24:3)

Daniel saw Christ's enthronement in heaven in a vision...he was the only human to actually "see" it, thousands of years before it happened. (Dan 7:13, 14) His whole book was written about "the time of the end"...the time we are living in now. The time when Christ would return and a cleansing and refining of God's people was to take place. (Dan 12:9, 10) We believe that this is 100 years into the fulfillment already.

When Christ's manifestation takes place...that is when "every eye will see him" and everyone will know that he is the King and judge of all mankind. If Christians did not discern Christ's "presence" by the sign he gave, they will not be "doing the will of the Father" during these momentous times and will not be recognized by him as his own. (Matt 7:21-23)

This next point is likely to be the most detrimental that the Watchtower has yet to address. Many JW’s may not realize that there is a parallel account in Luke regarding the “faithful slave.” In Luke 12:37, Jesus describes the blessing of the slave when He returns. Peter’s response to the parable is noteworthy: “Lord, are you addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?” If Jesus were referring to a small group of men that would appear 2,000 years later, then He surely would have made this clear. Instead, He goes on to explain the parable similarly to Matthew’s account in 24:45. Jesus is providing an answer to Peter’s question and directing it to the audience of Jesus. Therefore, there must be persons in Jesus’ audience who are the “faithful and discreet slave.”

There is also a parallel account in Mark 13:32-37.

In verse 32 of Luke 12, Jesus addresses his disciples a "little flock" and rightly so when we consider that the ones chosen to rule with him in his kingdom were a limited number. All of the first Christians had "the heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) They were the first to be gathered...but not the only Christians who are saved.

The sign of the last days was to alert Christ's disciples of his presence and to assure them that he was backing the greatest preaching campaign in the history of the world...."and then the end will come".

So who really is the “faithful and discreet slave?" The answer is very simple: anyone who is found faithful to Christ’s command to “give them their rations at the proper time,” (Luke 12:42) when He returns. Surely these faithful slaves have existed since the first century. After all, Jesus directly admonished Peter to “feed my sheep,” (John 21:15-17).

If you have found him in fellow Christians who may have all sorts of different ideas, then you are welcome to that. Rafferty's rules don't apply to Christian teaching.Christ did not contradict himself. It is man, by his conduct who contradicts the teachings of the Christ.

I know who is fulfilling the role assigned for this slave. I am happy to sit at his table and know that this brotherhood is united globally, preaching one message to all the world as he said they would.

Christendom is doing very little in the way of obeying the teachings of Jesus Christ. When they want to break a command, they justify it and feel no remorse. I know because I was part of all that once. I could never go back to that lost and hypocritical system.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Really?

*** bh chap. 4 p. 39 par. 5 Who Is Jesus Christ? ***
5 In the first century C.E., the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth were fully convinced that he was the foretold Messiah. (John 1:41) One of the disciples, a man named Simon Peter, openly said to Jesus: “You are the Christ.” (Matthew 16:16) How, though, could those disciples—and how can we—be sure that Jesus really is the promised Messiah?

That's not true at all. What about John? He was sent to baptize and prepare the way for Jesus, wasn't he?

Jn 1:32-34 (ESVST) 32 And John bore witness: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. ' 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God."

But what did John say whilst in prison?

Luk 7:18-20 (ESVST) 18 The disciples of John reported all these things to him. And John, 19 calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to the Lord, saying, " Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?" 20 And when the men had come to him, they said, " John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, ' Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another? '"

LOL....John 1:41, which the WT is using to try and make their point, says nothing of the disciples being "FULLY CONVINCED" that He was the foretold Messiah.

Jn 1:40-41 (ESVST) 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Jesus was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which means Christ).

That just says, "one" of the two told his brother they found the Messiah. What about the other one who heard John? Doesn't say what he said or did.

Seriously...this is the best argument you have? How terribly controversial djh. Faith altering stuff this.

I am sure we'll never be saved unless we are fully convinced that Jesus is the Christ.
Does it not stand to reason that if Jesus chose the 12, that they were all pretty sure about who he was? Don't you think the miracles would have clinched it?

John the baptist was Jesus' cousin. Families were close back then. Mary visited John's mother Elizabeth when they were both expecting their miracle babies.
Jesus' own siblings did not put faith in him until after his death and resurrection....but they did eventually. It was obviously hard to overcome familial feelings where this person was just you big brother for 30 years and now he is claiming to be the Messiah?.....and God's son at that?!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I just brought up Ecc 3:3 to Deeje, and this is the response I got,

So I am taking it that you couldn't find any words of Jesus to justify bloodshed?

Eccl 3:3, 8 applied to Israel at a time when war was sanctioned by God....he hasn't sanctioned a war for thousands of years. Certainly not one in the christian era.
 

blue taylor

Active Member
Matthew 7:23 is Jesus' words.

So, even the New Testament -- at least the 14 books Paul wrote -- you will not accept? As if God can't control what is in His own word?
We have very little basis for agreement, then. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is out the window.

Happy searching.

So long.
The 14 books that Paul wrote. You gotta be kidding.
 
Top