Magic and Placebo (part two?)

1137 · Apr 4, 2016

I believe @Erebus started the last thread on this, but I wanted to pick up the topic again. Perhaps the best way to define magic, not in the modern demystified way, is as acts where one willfully acts against the "natural order." In myths you get extreme examples, such as manipulating the weather, and in modern occultism you get things like forced belief (essentially the placebo effect). Most people simply equate magic with placebo off as if it's nothing, but it's actually a big deal.

For example, studies are now showing that placebos can improve lives without deception, meaning that people know the pill is a sugar pill and take it anyways, cause an improve in their subjective symptoms. So willfully believing something will help you may make it helpful to you. This is the core of magic. It's also important to understanding the mind and brain as a whole.

Without self awareness you essentially just act according to your own nature, such as in individuals who lack anger management abilities. But with the mind we can address these drives, this natural flow, and willfully redirect it. In a world where mind = body we should only see the body impacting the mind, not the other way around. But the very simple fact shown by placebos is the mind, simple conscious will or belief, can impact the physical brain as well. I'd actually encourage the comparison between magic and placebo, especially in general discussion.

George-ananda · Apr 4, 2016

1137 said:
I believe @Erebus started the last thread on this, but I wanted to pick up the topic again. Perhaps the best way to define magic, not in the modern demystified way, is as acts where one willfully acts against the "natural order." In myths you get extreme examples, such as manipulating the weather, and in modern occultism you get things like forced belief (essentially the placebo effect). Most people simply equate magic with placebo off as if it's nothing, but it's actually a big deal.

For example, studies are now showing that placebos can improve lives without deception, meaning that people know the pill is a sugar pill and take it anyways, cause an improve in their subjective symptoms. So willfully believing something will help you may make it helpful to you. This is the core of magic. It's also important to understanding the mind and brain as a whole.

Without self awareness you essentially just act according to your own nature, such as in individuals who lack anger management abilities. But with the mind we can address these drives, this natural flow, and willfully redirect it. In a world where mind = body we should only see the body impacting the mind, not the other way around. But the very simple fact shown by placebos is the mind, simple conscious will or belief, can impact the physical brain as well. I'd actually encourage the comparison between magic and placebo, especially in general discussion.

Interesting stuff. Ultimately, I think this leads to consciousness being the creator of the material world. To complicate the matter, doesn't magic also affect things/people who are not aware that magic is being used. So maybe the creator of the magic is causing some of this too. I am aware of the theory of 'Entangled Minds' which is fascinating.

bobhikes · Apr 4, 2016

Interesting concept but I can add nothing at this time, I would need to study it.

Baladas · Apr 4, 2016

1137 said:
For example, studies are now showing that placebos can improve lives without deception, meaning that people know the pill is a sugar pill and take it anyways, cause an improve in their subjective symptoms. So willfully believing something will help you may make it helpful to you. This is the core of magic. It's also important to understanding the mind and brain as a whole.

Very interesting.
I've thought this about the placebo effect too.

There are certainly instances in which placebo effect can be beneficial...I never connected that with the idea of magic.
I'll have to think about this, and read up on magic more.

Thief · Apr 4, 2016

1137 said:
I believe @Erebus started the last thread on this, but I wanted to pick up the topic again. Perhaps the best way to define magic, not in the modern demystified way, is as acts where one willfully acts against the "natural order." In myths you get extreme examples, such as manipulating the weather, and in modern occultism you get things like forced belief (essentially the placebo effect). Most people simply equate magic with placebo off as if it's nothing, but it's actually a big deal.

For example, studies are now showing that placebos can improve lives without deception, meaning that people know the pill is a sugar pill and take it anyways, cause an improve in their subjective symptoms. So willfully believing something will help you may make it helpful to you. This is the core of magic. It's also important to understanding the mind and brain as a whole.

Without self awareness you essentially just act according to your own nature, such as in individuals who lack anger management abilities. But with the mind we can address these drives, this natural flow, and willfully redirect it. In a world where mind = body we should only see the body impacting the mind, not the other way around. But the very simple fact shown by placebos is the mind, simple conscious will or belief, can impact the physical brain as well. I'd actually encourage the comparison between magic and placebo, especially in general discussion.

would you like to hook this up to the events of healing?.....performed by the Carpenter

crossfire · Apr 5, 2016

Thief said:
would you like to hook this up to the events of healing?.....performed by the Carpenter

Here is a clear example:
Matthew 9:20-22

20 Just then, a woman who had suffered from bleeding for 12 years approached from behind and touched the tassel on His robe, 21 for she said to herself, “If I can just touch His robe, I’ll be made well!”

22 But Jesus turned and saw her. “Have courage, daughter,” He said. “Your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that moment.

Thief · Apr 5, 2016

crossfire said:
Here is a clear example:
Matthew 9:20-22

20 Just then, a woman who had suffered from bleeding for 12 years approached from behind and touched the tassel on His robe, 21 for she said to herself, “If I can just touch His robe, I’ll be made well!”

22 But Jesus turned and saw her. “Have courage, daughter,” He said. “Your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that moment.

the story I got had a slight variable.....

the people were crowding Him and His disciples......and the woman took hold of His garment
she was healed.

He said to His disciples.....Who has touched Me?
and they replied.....what do you mean? the crowd is pressing unto us?

apparently .....she was on her hands and knees reaching through and in between the people

but He saw her and then said .....woman your faith has healed you

point being.......the healing was drawn from Him
without His intent

1137 · Apr 5, 2016

Thief said:
the story I got had a slight variable.....

the people were crowding Him and His disciples......and the woman took hold of His garment
she was healed.

He said to His disciples.....Who has touched Me?
and they replied.....what do you mean? the crowd is pressing unto us?

apparently .....she was on her hands and knees reaching through and in between the people

but He saw her and then said .....woman your faith has healed you

point being.......the healing was drawn from Him
without His intent

Point being she healed herself without Jesus doing anything.

Thief · Apr 5, 2016

1137 said:
Point being she healed herself without Jesus doing anything.

so to Whom?...does the 'magic' belong?

allfoak · Apr 6, 2016

We don't know exactly how "magic" such as the placebo effect works, cause if we did we would all be great healers and magicians.
We do however, know some things about it.

We know that there are many different models handed down to us.
Much of it seems to center around the use of consciousness, energy and spirit.
These are considered by many to be separate but i tend to think that they cannot be separated.

Consciousness magic would be the idea that thoughts are things and that like attracts like (law of attraction), so our life becomes the thoughts we entertain.
Our outer life reflects the inner life.
As is the inside, so is the outside.
Our outer environment reflects our inner consciousness.

The energy concept is simply that there is a universal energy and energy follows thought, so it can be directed and used.
Thought directs energy is how it is connected to the first idea.

The spirit concept is the use of spirits to carry out a task.
This concept is connected to the others through the same idea of thought directing energy (spirits).
The spirit is something that has been built through constant feeding of thought forms over the millennia or for however long it has existed, by countless numbers of people.
They can be summoned and commanded.

There is some difference in these models but they work much the same way.
They are dependent upon the idea that there is a universal energy that is full of life and can be used to heal and heighten and expand our own consciousness through their conscious use.

Using these ideas to understand the placebo effect, one would come to the conclusion that the person experiencing this effect would have created it themselves through the directing of energy to the place that needs the healing and then letting it go to work it's magic!
The letting go part is very important by the way.
The energy, the thought or the spirit, which ever you are working with have to be released in order to do their work.
So when someone takes a pill believing it will help them, this seems to be what is happening.
Magic!

HonestJoe · Apr 6, 2016

I fail to see the advantage of bringing the word “magic” in to the domain of studying the workings of the human mind. It seems to me that a term with all the baggage of such diverse meanings and disputed reality could only serve to further complicate and already complicated field.

Thief · Apr 6, 2016

HonestJoe said:
I fail to see the advantage of bringing the word “magic” in to the domain of studying the workings of the human mind. It seems to me that a term with all the baggage of such diverse meanings and disputed reality could only serve to further complicate and already complicated field.

indeed....
picture the situation if we each were born to the ability ....changing stone to bread......water to wine.

allfoak · Apr 6, 2016

HonestJoe said:
I fail to see the advantage of bringing the word “magic” in to the domain of studying the workings of the human mind. It seems to me that a term with all the baggage of such diverse meanings and disputed reality could only serve to further complicate and already complicated field.

It would seem to me that we have a good deal to learn from already without having to rewrite it.
One may not like the term Magick but with a little research on the part of any intelligent person it can be seen that the term Magick and it's practices, have everything to do with the study and use of the human mind.

aoji · Apr 6, 2016

Where's the link to the afore-mentioned thread?

aoji · Apr 6, 2016

1137 said:
Point being she healed herself without Jesus doing anything.

No. Jesus said, "I felt virtue draining from me". There was a transfer of energy. She was receptive to that energy and drew the energy out.

The first question to ask is whether or not one is sensitive enough to feel energy? Have you ever felt psychic vampires, for example? Have you ever felt love wash over you from a beloved?, felt your spirit soar, felt the hairs on your body stand up as you hear her voice? or felt her touch? If the latter is true, why can't the former also be true?

aoji · Apr 6, 2016

1137 said:
I believe @Erebus ... without deception, meaning that people know the pill is a sugar pill and take it anyways...

You're making a case for Self-delusion. We delude ourselves every day. You're just saying that we selectively concentrate on an idea. That concentration would then be called "magic", hardly any different than focuses meditation, yoga, hypnosis, etc. Funny thing is, no matter what the mind may wish for the body will do what it wants to do, it will get old, it will get diseased, it will die. It's a matter of energy...

Quintessence · Apr 6, 2016

HonestJoe said:
I fail to see the advantage of bringing the word “magic” in to the domain of studying the workings of the human mind. It seems to me that a term with all the baggage of such diverse meanings and disputed reality could only serve to further complicate and already complicated field.

Do you think that this perspective may be the result of some cultural biases on your part? I ask the question because applying a term like "placebo" to things is the novel approach, not using the term "magic." Westerners on the whole have a great deal of trouble taking magical practices seriously, in spite of the fact that they have been found throughout human history in all cultures. It's us who feel we have to rationalize magic with social science terms like "placebo," and we need to be mindful of that. Vocabulary can illuminate, but it can also obfuscate when we aren't sensitive to the underlying cultural differences behind those words we're using. Am I making sense? Probably not.

1137 · Apr 6, 2016

aoji said:
Where's the link to the afore-mentioned thread?

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/why-say-magic-instead-of-placebo.184297/

Quintessence · Apr 6, 2016

@1137 ,

I think you might want to back up a few steps with the OP - at assumes more knowledge in spellcraft/magic/occult stuff than the average reader around here is going to have. What's the central idea you wanted to get across with this thread?

HonestJoe · Apr 6, 2016

Quintessence said:
Do you think that this perspective may be the result of some cultural biases on your part?

Yes.

It's on the part of the OP and pretty much everybody reading this too though, that's my point. Magic means lots of things already so simply replacing an existing word with it in a particular context seems like it can only add confusion and gain nothing (unless creating confusion is the purpose!).

Quintessence said:
I ask the question because applying a term like "placebo" to things is the novel approach, not using the term "magic."

Language isn't first-come first-served. These two words mean different things regardless of when they were first used. They don't even mean the same type of thing - placebo is an effect, magic is a (proposed) cause.

You see, I've absolutely no problem with the word magic being used in this context. If someone wants to define some element of the mental process and identify it as magical that's fine. Of course, they'd need to define exactly what they mean by that and, if they wish to be taken seriously, provide some evidence to back up that hypothesis though.

And maybe that's the problem here. Is this just about being able to say "magic exists" by taking something that does exist but maybe isn't fully understood and sticking a label with "magic" written on it?

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