Slavery in the Bible

Mathematician · May 20, 2006

I think sparc's post is directed towards those Christians who believe the Bible is one-hundred percent accurate all the time and that the Holy Spirit made it so the prophets wrote down nothing that goes against God's truths. Otherwise, there's nothing debatable.

sparc872 · May 20, 2006

I think sparc's post is directed towards those Christians who believe the Bible is one-hundred percent accurate all the time and that the Holy Spirit made it so the prophets wrote down nothing that goes against God's truths. Otherwise, there's nothing debatable.

Thank you, that was my target group. So far there has only been a couple of them to post, I wish some more would come here so I could get their opinions on the matter.

Booko · May 20, 2006

sparc872 said:
In the Old Testament, slavery was everywhere. It was a common part of everyay life back then and it seems God approved of it. I think most of us would agree that the act of owning a slave is one of the most immoral acts any person could commit, so how could God allow his people to practice it?

We went to our neighbor's bar mitzvah today and it's interesting, but this exact subject came up because of the readings in shul, some of which concerned dealing with slaves.

The rabbi spoke very eloquently on this subject, and in detail about what the Torah commands by way of treating slaves, and how in the end it would tend to discourage slavery compared to the pagans' practices at the time.

For example, if the owner has only enough food for one person, he has to give it to the slave. If he has only 1 pillow, God commands he give it to the slave. And there was much more, but this gives you an idea at least.

So while reading the Tenach outside its cultural and historical context it sounds like "God said slavery is just fine," the reality is different the deeper you dig.

It's easy to see while reading the book they use for services, which is loaded with commentary on the passages and prayers, you might think something in Leviticus is just talking about rotating crops, but it means a LOT more than that. It has entire implications about how to do business with others and generosity as well.

Buttons* · May 20, 2006

Booko said:
We went to our neighbor's bar mitzvah today and it's interesting, but this exact subject came up because of the readings in shul, some of which concerned dealing with slaves.

The rabbi spoke very eloquently on this subject, and in detail about what the Torah commands by way of treating slaves, and how in the end it would tend to discourage slavery compared to the pagans' practices at the time.

For example, if the owner has only enough food for one person, he has to give it to the slave. If he has only 1 pillow, God commands he give it to the slave. And there was much more, but this gives you an idea at least.

So while reading the Tenach outside its cultural and historical context it sounds like "God said slavery is just fine," the reality is different the deeper you dig.

It's easy to see while reading the book they use for services, which is loaded with commentary on the passages and prayers, you might think something in Leviticus is just talking about rotating crops, but it means a LOT more than that. It has entire implications about how to do business with others and generosity as well.

I'd really love to see the scriptures actually listed that you speak of

Lindsey-Loo · May 20, 2006

First of all, I'm ignoring the Old Testament because we're not under that law anymore. Remember, in the Old Testament, God also had harsh punishments for those who broke His laws. But He no longer has laws like that for us.

In Ephesians and 1 Timothy, the Bible uses the words servants or bondservants. These aren't the same things as slaves. Servants are paid for their work, and bondservants are people who owed debts but couldn't pay them off. To pay off the debt, they had to work for the debtor. That was just the way things were. If we still practiced having bondservants today, the verses you presented would certainly apply. But bondservants/servants and slavesx are not the same things.

The verses in Luke were part of a parable. Jesus was making an analogy between a Master and a disobedient servant to Himself and His servant.

Booko · May 20, 2006

Buttons* said:
I'd really love to see the scriptures actually listed that you speak of

That's the problem with the Tenach. It's not in there. You wanna buy that copy of the Talmud for $2,999 with the 9-quart baking dish thrown in for free?

Or maybe the Jews need to start their own campaign, like;

What Would RAMBAM Do?

Buttons* · May 20, 2006

Booko said:
That's the problem with the Tenach. It's not in there.

well if it's not in there.... how can you say that it's.... in there? :sarcastic

Booko · May 20, 2006

Buttons* said:
well if it's not in there.... how can you say that it's.... in there? :sarcastic

I guess 'cause it's in the oral Torah?

sheesh, where is Jewscout when you need him? :help:

Buttons* · May 20, 2006

Booko said:
I guess 'cause it's in the oral Torah?

sheesh, where is Jewscout when you need him? :help:

just cause i'm not jewish :sad4:

Booko · May 20, 2006

Buttons* said:
just cause i'm not jewish :sad4:

Yeah, well neither am I, but it doesn't mean I don't listen when people talk.

Hey, isn't evareal online now?

The sun has been down for HOURS on the East Coast. Hey guys -- Shabbat is over! Where are you? :sad4:

sparc872 · May 21, 2006

First of all, I'm ignoring the Old Testament because we're not under that law anymore. Remember, in the Old Testament, God also had harsh punishments for those who broke His laws. But He no longer has laws like that for us.

I see this all of the time. Christians ignore the Old Testament because we have a 'new deal' so to speak. It does not change the fact that God still allowed slavery in the Old testament and committed genocided etc. The God of the Old Testament is the same one as the New Testament, so you would think that rather than telling us to own slaves and worrying about what kind of clothing we wear, he would be teaching us love, that just wasn't the case. Jesus brought a message of love, the God of the OT brought a message of war, how can the two be brought together? I see no way that they can.

jewscout · May 22, 2006

GeneCosta said:
I think sparc's post is directed towards those Christians who believe the Bible is one-hundred percent accurate all the time and that the Holy Spirit made it so the prophets wrote down nothing that goes against God's truths. Otherwise, there's nothing debatable.

ahh well if this is the target audience then i don't have to say anything

sweeeeeet less work for me

but just cause i gotta say something...there are also laws dealing w/ sacrifices in the Temple, but there's no Temple, so there's no sacrifices...
no more slavery, no more using the laws pertaining to slavery...not that they are gone, we just don't use them any more...

i think a rabbinical decree at some point actually ended the institution w/in jewish law anyways...so it's not really an issue anymore
not sure where i saw that tho... :shrug:

angellous_evangellous · May 22, 2006

sparc872 said:
I see this all of the time. Christians ignore the Old Testament because we have a 'new deal' so to speak. It does not change the fact that God still allowed slavery in the Old testament and committed genocided etc. The God of the Old Testament is the same one as the New Testament, so you would think that rather than telling us to own slaves and worrying about what kind of clothing we wear, he would be teaching us love, that just wasn't the case. Jesus brought a message of love, the God of the OT brought a message of war, how can the two be brought together? I see no way that they can.

Are you comparing the OT to the NT here?

Do you somehow think that in the OT God did not teach people to love?

Lev 19:18
Love your neighbor as yourself

Deut 6
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. [a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts.

Jesus used these in teaching the greatest commandment in Mark. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael

"Shema is one of the sentences that are quoted in the New Testament. The Gospel of Mark 12:29 mentions that Jesus considered the Shema the beginning exhortation of the first of his two greatest commandments: "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, 'Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord'" (KJV). Jesus also refers to the Shema in The Gospel of John 10:30. A group of Jews in the Temple in Jerusalem at the Feast of Dedication, or Hanukkah, asks him if he is Messiah, the anointed one of God. Jesus concludes his response with the words "I and my Father are one" (KJV). This is an allusion to the Shema, which the Jews immediately recognize and pick up stones to stone him."

Î©RÃ´ghÃªnÎ© · May 22, 2006

well, my dear, it's the same reason that women are not allowed to speak in church, and have to have their heads covered in front of anyone who isn't their husband.... BS!

Eh, "its the way things were culturally".... you know, even the most richous of God's men friggin had slaves, conqubines, and all sorts of stuff we consider wrong today....

the bible was written by men. Obviously men who could write, and who had money, and who were in power, who could have control of others. It's a control thing. "Be my slave or God will hate you" ....

no one is going to argue towards slavery. No one should own anyone else. And I should quit talking

yes you should

Î©RÃ´ghÃªnÎ© · May 22, 2006

In the Old Testament, slavery was everywhere. It was a common part of everyay life back then and it seems God approved of it. I think most of us would agree that the act of owning a slave is one of the most immoral acts any person could commit, so how could God allow his people to practice it? In the New Testament, Jesus didn't seem to mind it either.

So why do we think slavery is immoral? Clearly our morality isn't coming from God. God approved of slavery both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. If we were to follow God's morality, we would all be owning our slaves, letting the male slaves go after six years and keeping the woman and children as our slaves. If our slaves wanted to stay with us, we would have to get an awl and pierce their ear.

Slavery is immoral, that is not an issue open to debate. There is nothing moral about owning another person, forcing them to work, and beating them. So to anyone remotely familiar with this subject, feel free to respond with any ideas as to how we can understand this.

Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:2-6
Exodus 21:7-11
Exodus 21:20-21
Ephesians 6:5
1 Timothy 6:1-2
Luke 12:47-48

3 ways

1.Christ teaches slaves to obey their masters (if they are slaves already and have no way of getting out of slavery), and their masters treat their slaves well. it works for me. if your a slave your going to heaven faster than your master anyway. i wouldnt mind being a slave if i came to god. theres nothing wrong with it as long as it is not being abbused. you see we are all slaves to god.the master should not deal harsh deals oin the slave and allow him a lot of freedom.

2.alternatively it may refer to servants rather than slaves, the bible is very symbolic you know.

3.alternatively the law was destroyed with the temple. so yeah, like jewscout said. this is the one i pick

Seeing the multitudes, he went up onto the mountain. When he had sat down, his disciples came to him.

2 He opened his mouth and taught them, saying,

3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.

10 Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

11 "Blessed are you when people reproach you, persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven. For that is how they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

13 "You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its flavor, with what will it be salted? It is then good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.

14 You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden.

15 Neither do you light a lamp, and put it under a measuring basket, but on a stand; and it shines to all who are in the house.

16 Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.

19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Lindsey-Loo · May 22, 2006

I see this all of the time. Christians ignore the Old Testament because we have a 'new deal' so to speak. It does not change the fact that God still allowed slavery in the Old testament and committed genocided etc. The God of the Old Testament is the same one as the New Testament, so you would think that rather than telling us to own slaves and worrying about what kind of clothing we wear, he would be teaching us love, that just wasn't the case. Jesus brought a message of love, the God of the OT brought a message of war, how can the two be brought together? I see no way that they can.

People change. Get over it.

In the Old Testament, God had certain laws for his people because he loved them. I don't know how else to explain this to you. In the Old Testament, they didn't yet have the message of salvation that Jesus brought to us. The culture was differant then, as well. When we're reading the Bible, we don't always realize the big picture. But the Old Testament was written hundreds, if not thousands of years before the New Testament.

MdmSzdWhtGuy · May 22, 2006

sparc872 said:
In the Old Testament, slavery was everywhere. It was a common part of everyay life back then and it seems God approved of it. I think most of us would agree that the act of owning a slave is one of the most immoral acts any person could commit, so how could God allow his people to practice it? In the New Testament, Jesus didn't seem to mind it either.

So why do we think slavery is immoral? Clearly our morality isn't coming from God. God approved of slavery both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. If we were to follow God's morality, we would all be owning our slaves, letting the male slaves go after six years and keeping the woman and children as our slaves. If our slaves wanted to stay with us, we would have to get an awl and pierce their ear.

Slavery is immoral, that is not an issue open to debate. There is nothing moral about owning another person, forcing them to work, and beating them. So to anyone remotely familiar with this subject, feel free to respond with any ideas as to how we can understand this.

Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:2-6
Exodus 21:7-11
Exodus 21:20-21
Ephesians 6:5
1 Timothy 6:1-2
Luke 12:47-48

Sparc,

It cannot be explained by any Biblical literalist, obviously, using any socially acceptable means. Jesus in the NT, and those writing on behalf of God in the OT both obviously and openly condone slavery. We know inherently that slavery is wrong, because, as you say, we as a society do not derive our morality from God, or gods.

We, as a humanistic, naturalistic society of modern, somewhat educated humans know without being told by any supernatural diety that it is quite wrong in and of itself to own another human and force that human to work against his/her will for our benefit.

The passages you quote in the OP are quite clear, and if someone is going to take the position that the Bible is literally true and literally the word of God, then there simply is no way to come to any other rational conclusion other than "God condones slavery."

This is, as was written above, the reason for the split between the Babtists and Southern Babtists that you see today. I know many Southern Babtists, and a good percentage of them are Biblical Literalists, who have no problem telling you that they world is 6,000 years old. Now they won't be quite so vocal about women not talking in Church, or covering their head, and they sure get squemish when the "God condones slavery" topic comes up, at least in public, but in quiet moments, there are, shocking as this may be, many people who still look at those with beleifs and skin color/culture different than there own, as being less than they are, and subject to subjugation/slavery, if only the South had been in possession of a few more steel mills.

I think there are real and genuine reasons, Sparc, why you don't have any more literalists getting on here defending the position you pointed out in the OP. For one, it is an almost indefensible position. And for a second reason, forcing someone who takes the Bible literally to face a problem such as this, is quite uncomfortable for them, leading many to do the kind of intellectual sidestepping that ChristianGirl has done, posting things such as "I don't pay any attention to the Old Testament" and "When Jesus spoke of these things, he was referring to a paid servant" (gross paraphrases there) rather than dealing with the legitimate issue you so poignently framed in the OP.

The real, most likely answer to the question is. . . the same guys who wrote the Bible are the ones who wrote the U.S. Constitution. Wanna see who those guys are? Then read the document and see who benefits most from the rules laid out.

(hint, its the MEN who own LAND and have SLAVES who benefit the most from both sets of rules)

B.

MdmSzdWhtGuy · May 22, 2006

sparc872 said:
In the Old Testament, slavery was everywhere. It was a common part of everyay life back then and it seems God approved of it. I think most of us would agree that the act of owning a slave is one of the most immoral acts any person could commit, so how could God allow his people to practice it? In the New Testament, Jesus didn't seem to mind it either.

So why do we think slavery is immoral? Clearly our morality isn't coming from God. God approved of slavery both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. If we were to follow God's morality, we would all be owning our slaves, letting the male slaves go after six years and keeping the woman and children as our slaves. If our slaves wanted to stay with us, we would have to get an awl and pierce their ear.

Slavery is immoral, that is not an issue open to debate. There is nothing moral about owning another person, forcing them to work, and beating them. So to anyone remotely familiar with this subject, feel free to respond with any ideas as to how we can understand this.

Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:2-6
Exodus 21:7-11
Exodus 21:20-21
Ephesians 6:5
1 Timothy 6:1-2
Luke 12:47-48

Sparc,

It cannot be explained by any Biblical literalist, obviously, using any socially acceptable means. Jesus in the NT, and those writing on behalf of God in the OT both obviously and openly condone slavery. We know inherently that slavery is wrong, because, as you say, we as a society do not derive our morality from God, or gods.

We, as a humanistic, naturalistic society of modern, somewhat educated humans know without being told by any supernatural diety that it is quite wrong in and of itself to own another human and force that human to work against his/her will for our benefit.

The passages you quote in the OP are quite clear, and if someone is going to take the position that the Bible is literally true and literally the word of God, then there simply is no way to come to any other rational conclusion other than "God condones slavery."

This is, as was written above, the reason for the split between the Babtists and Southern Babtists that you see today. I know many Southern Babtists, and a good percentage of them are Biblical Literalists, who have no problem telling you that they world is 6,000 years old. Now they won't be quite so vocal about women not talking in Church, or covering their head, and they sure get squemish when the "God condones slavery" topic comes up, at least in public, but in quiet moments, there are, shocking as this may be, many people who still look at those with beleifs and skin color/culture different than there own, as being less than they are, and subject to subjugation/slavery, if only the South had been in possession of a few more steel mills.

I think there are real and genuine reasons, Sparc, why you don't have any more literalists getting on here defending the position you pointed out in the OP. For one, it is an almost indefensible position. And for a second reason, forcing someone who takes the Bible literally to face a problem such as this, is quite uncomfortable for them, leading many to do the kind of intellectual sidestepping that ChristianGirl has done, posting things such as "I don't pay any attention to the Old Testament" and "When Jesus spoke of these things, he was referring to a paid servant" (gross paraphrases there) rather than dealing with the legitimate issue you so poignently framed in the OP.

The real, most likely answer to the question is. . . the same guys who wrote the Bible are the ones who wrote the U.S. Constitution. Wanna see who those guys are? Then read the document and see who benefits most from the rules laid out.

(hint, its the MEN who own LAND and have SLAVES who benefit the most from both sets of rules)

B.

MdmSzdWhtGuy · May 22, 2006

sparc872 said:
In the Old Testament, slavery was everywhere. It was a common part of everyay life back then and it seems God approved of it. I think most of us would agree that the act of owning a slave is one of the most immoral acts any person could commit, so how could God allow his people to practice it? In the New Testament, Jesus didn't seem to mind it either.

So why do we think slavery is immoral? Clearly our morality isn't coming from God. God approved of slavery both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. If we were to follow God's morality, we would all be owning our slaves, letting the male slaves go after six years and keeping the woman and children as our slaves. If our slaves wanted to stay with us, we would have to get an awl and pierce their ear.

Slavery is immoral, that is not an issue open to debate. There is nothing moral about owning another person, forcing them to work, and beating them. So to anyone remotely familiar with this subject, feel free to respond with any ideas as to how we can understand this.

Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:2-6
Exodus 21:7-11
Exodus 21:20-21
Ephesians 6:5
1 Timothy 6:1-2
Luke 12:47-48

Sparc,

It cannot be explained by any Biblical literalist, obviously, using any socially acceptable means. Jesus in the NT, and those writing on behalf of God in the OT both obviously and openly condone slavery. We know inherently that slavery is wrong, because, as you say, we as a society do not derive our morality from God, or gods.

We, as a humanistic, naturalistic society of modern, somewhat educated humans know without being told by any supernatural diety that it is quite wrong in and of itself to own another human and force that human to work against his/her will for our benefit.

The passages you quote in the OP are quite clear, and if someone is going to take the position that the Bible is literally true and literally the word of God, then there simply is no way to come to any other rational conclusion other than "God condones slavery."

This is, as was written above, the reason for the split between the Babtists and Southern Babtists that you see today. I know many Southern Babtists, and a good percentage of them are Biblical Literalists, who have no problem telling you that the world is 6,000 years old. Now they won't be quite so vocal about women not talking in Church, or covering their head, and they sure get squemish when the "God condones slavery" topic comes up, at least in public, but in quiet moments, there are, shocking as this may be, many people who still look at those with beleifs and skin color/culture different than there own, as being less than they are, and subject to subjugation/slavery, if only the South had been in possession of a few more steel mills.

I think there are real and genuine reasons, Sparc, why you don't have any more literalists getting on here defending the position you pointed out in the OP. For one, it is an almost indefensible position. And for a second reason, forcing someone who takes the Bible literally to face a problem such as this, is quite uncomfortable for them, leading many to do the kind of intellectual sidestepping that ChristianGirl has done, posting things such as "I don't pay any attention to the Old Testament" and "When Jesus spoke of these things, he was referring to a paid servant" (gross paraphrases there) rather than dealing with the legitimate issue you so poignently framed in the OP.

The real, most likely answer to the question is. . . the same guys who wrote the Bible are the ones who wrote the U.S. Constitution. Wanna see who those guys are? Then read the document and see who benefits most from the rules laid out.

(hint, its the MEN who own LAND and have SLAVES who benefit the most from both sets of rules)

B.

roli · May 22, 2006

sparc872 said:
sparc872 said:

In the Old Testament, slavery was everywhere. It was a common part of everyay life back then and it seems God approved of it. I think most of us would agree that the act of owning a slave is one of the most immoral acts any person could commit, so how could God allow his people to practice it? In the New Testament, Jesus didn't seem to mind it either.

So why do we think slavery is immoral? Clearly our morality isn't coming from God. God approved of slavery both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. If we were to follow God's morality, we would all be owning our slaves, letting the male slaves go after six years and keeping the woman and children as our slaves. If our slaves wanted to stay with us, we would have to get an awl and pierce their ear.

Slavery is immoral, that is not an issue open to debate. There is nothing moral about owning another person, forcing them to work, and beating them. So to anyone remotely familiar with this subject, feel free to respond with any ideas as to how we can understand this.

Click to expand...

If you only knew God's heart and what He had in mind when He set the whole bondservant / maidservant in place.
Was it really to inflict suffering on them ,no ,I think man got his hands on many things and perverted it as usual,just like marriage God said 1 wife,but many had multiple wivbes was that God's plan ,no
When you use that word "slave"in and of itself, it does sound ,totally immoral and degrading, but the Hebrew word emphasis was the word ,servant,exploit that word when you use the word salve ,you may well give people a fuller contextual understanding of the true meaning of the word,' slave',not a bias perspective taken out of context used to slam God ,you just won't ever win.
Like I said ,you have no clue the intention of God when He insituted servants and masters.
Did you ever think it may very well be similar to what you call your employer,I am sure your openmined enough to have considered that.
Did you ever also consider that maybe the servants had no income or livelyhood and it was God's way of provision,
No, let's just bash God everytime we can't see clearly into things,In reality it gives us somewhat of a more liberal conscience to do as we please, so when we blameshift ,excuse and justify we liberate ourselves somewhat to better live our lives without a dictatorship type God, we humans think we know sooooo.. much.
By the way man always perverts what God meants for good.
Let's see ,people bash God continually yet God still grants them the air to breath,what is that called, love or immoral.

Slavery in the Bible

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