What Are the Most Pressing Problems Facing Mystics?

crossfire said:

Well, so far we have a size sample of 4 mystics who are Introverted iNtuitives, and 0 who are otherwise.
We can move the personality posts to the Jungian thread if they are disrupting this one.

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No! No! Because this relates to:

What Are the Most Pressing Problems Facing Mystics?
Discussion in 'Mysticism DIR' started by Sunstone, Tuesday at 9:52 AM.

One of the most pressing problems facing mystics is "understanding self" and its relationship to other mystics.

YmirGF said:

In all seriousness, mystic64, it is my opinion that only those who have just got their feet wet would be inclined to use their new found "ability" to cause destruction and harm. Once you have hopped and skipped a fairly short way down the rabbit hole of reality, one realizes that it isn't a very good idea to consciously seek destruction and to harm others. It's a fairly newbie thingy.

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To me it seems indicative of what you see with those who do 'black magic' outside your normal 'white magic' practices. Speaking with people I know with backgrounds in Wicca, their observations and experiences indicate that those who seek black magic are doing so to have power over others, or seeking to control their world which seems out of control, they seek to control others. She refers to them as the "investment bankers" of the spiritual community. I see that not as developmental immature, but a broken and dysfunctional ego that doesn't know how to get what they want in healthy ways.

I makes me think of why spiritual masters keep secret the things they know, only letting those who are good candidates learn when they are ready. Some they would chose not to initiate at all, as it would not be good for them or others. A modern teacher might refer them to psychological therapy first, before they feel they are ready for spiritual training. People with psychological dysfunctions may actually be made worse through practices such as meditation.

Windwalker said:

To me it seems indicative of what you see with those who do 'black magic' outside your normal 'white magic' practices. Speaking with people I know with backgrounds in Wicca, their observations and experiences indicate that those who seek black magic are doing so to have power over others, or seeking to control their world which seems out of control, they seek to control others. She refers to them as the "investment bankers" of the spiritual community. I see that not as developmental immature, but a broken and dysfunctional ego that doesn't know how to get what they want in healthy ways.

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In regards to the highlighted bit, personally, I don't see much of a difference. Inner development should create a wholesome and healthy psychological framework which makes such "tinkering" unworthy of serious consideration. That said, if the tea cup is cracked to begin with one must endeavor to repair the cup before filling it with a nice hot tea.

Windwalker said:

I makes me think of why spiritual masters keep secret the things they know, only letting those who are good candidates learn when they are ready. Some they would chose not to initiate at all, as it would not be good for them or others. A modern teacher might refer them to psychological therapy first, before they feel they are ready for spiritual training. People with psychological dysfunctions may actually be made worse through practices such as meditation.

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Agreed and I've said as much on many, many occasions and, no doubt, will say it many more times. One need not look far, even here on RF, to find psychological aberrations in need of compassionate care.

YmirGF said:

In all seriousness, mystic64, it is my opinion that only those who have just got their feet wet would be inclined to use their new found "ability" to cause destruction and harm. Once you have hopped and skipped a fairly short way down the rabbit hole of reality, one realizes that it isn't a very good idea to consciously seek destruction and to harm others. It's a fairly newbie thingy.

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You would think so wouldn't you . And I came to that conclusion early in my life. But some dark mystics are born with that ability and from there there is an inner core part of them that just doesn't change. They just get better at it. "Everything that you say can and will be used against you.", is their rabbit hole of reality. And their creative moment question to the "Intuitive Mind" is, "How can I take advantage of that just for fun?" And when they get into God, they become God in their own minds. And if this concept is threated in anyway, they crawl under some version of a rock and become some version of sneeky. All message boards have these personality types and generally they are considered "trolls". And generally they are more of an irritation than anything else. The problem is the "gifted" ones. They always play just under the radar of management. And generally they do not consider themselves mystics even though they get their information from the same place that mystics do. It is just that they ask questions to get answers that slant things in the direction that they want things slanted. And they are one of, "the most pressing problems facing mystics." That is mystics that are seeking truth . Because they use their gift to twist truth into something else and they do it in gifted ways.

YmirGF, you are a mystic that is seeking truth and the "rabbit hole" that you go down causes you to walk off different . Some mystics (one who has a functional connection to the intuitive mind/to the "unknown") are not seeking truth and the "rabbit hole" that they go down is a different "rabbit hole" and they just come back slicker. And what I am saying ultimately probably does not matter because there is probably nothing that one can do about these folks anyway, except to explore things first hand and try not to pay too much attention to what other folks have to say. Which is YmirGF, what you have done .

YmirGF said:

In regards to the highlighted bit, personally, I don't see much of a difference. Inner development should create a wholesome and healthy psychological framework which makes such "tinkering" unworthy of serious consideration.

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Well I do agree with normal development. But what of "abnormal"? Those who for whatever reason have something broken, repressed, suppressed, denied, etc., can create a pathology, like a cancer. This takes more than just simply the hard work of growing up. It takes breaking the bone and resetting it so it heals correctly - if possible. It's idealistic to assume it's all simply a matter of proper guidance and correction in order to mature someone into leaving behind the things of childhood. In some cases, it's actually pathological.

YmirGF said:

That said, if the tea cup is cracked to begin with one must endeavor to repair the cup before filling it with a nice hot tea.

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Which is where therapy comes in before normal developmental training.

YmirGF said:

Agreed and I've said as much on many, many occasions and, no doubt, will say it many more times. One need not look far, even here on RF, to find psychological aberrations in need of compassionate care.

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This can be true. Were we all wise enough to always see it as it is, rather than sitting in judgment from our seat of expectations.

Regarding what is being talked about as so-called "dark mystics", is that truly "the most pressing issue facing mystics"? The answer is most certainly not. What is being described is not a potential pitfall, or even a temptation or struggle for mystics in general. What is being described sounds potentially more indicative of the symptoms of those suffering with a psychiatric disorder such as schizophrenia. But that does lead to the question of the relationship between mystics and schizophrenics.

There are in fact some comparisons to be made, so I can see someone making the mistake in understanding that sort of disorder with a type of "dark mysticism". But it's actually not a result of mystical practices at all that opens someone to the "dark side", but rather a case of an existing disorder simply being attracted to the mystical because the nature of what mysticism is can be easily misconstrued to reinforce and validate the delusions that come with the disorder. Even those religious groups that ride the edge of the world of religion (mysticism aside) attract people with this disorder as it appears to them to fit into their delusional modes of thought, imagining themselves as having "the truth" and all others are deceived, or "lost" or whatever makes themselves right and everyone else just "not get it", like they do. They can easily fit in with that type of thinking in a group that has that as their own groupthink mentality. I've personally seen that many times.

What differentiates the mystic from the schizophrenic? It can be argued that the schizophrenic is having genuine mystical apprehensions, but what is off is the the normal editing and filtering functions of the egoic mind with which we translate such subtle states of consciousness are not functioning properly. As they move into the subconscious they are regressing, and then the higher level superconscious floods in and overtakes them and the whole thing is translated in lower functions. They become convinced they are especially gifted, singled out to know this secret truth, and depending on their ego-state, function with this from that place, feeling they have been empowered to overcome those who are against them with this special knowledge, and so forth.

There is a story from Baba Ram Dass when he visited a patient in a psychiatric hospital. The patient had been producing large volumes of material, which when Ram Dass read them could see they were incredibly and genuinely insightful of some of the greatest truths known to mystics. But he was also exhibiting pathological behaviors, such as lying, stealing, cheating, while telling everyone he was the Christ. He would say things like, "I've been given this and you haven't". Ram Dass said to him, "Do you think you're the Christ, the Christ in Pure Consciousness?" He answered him, yes, to which Ram Dass said, "Well I think I am too". The patient looks at him and says, "No, you don't understand". To which Ram Dass replied, "That's why they lock you up, you see."

The mystic on the other hand is able to integrate these deeper and higher truths in healthy ways, which makes them more compassionate and loving. They do not take these 'gifts' and turn them into extensions of broken egos. In fact, those who seek Truth for self-power only feed these lower functions, and a pathology could ensue. It is in fact not reaching higher or more "advanced" stages, but turning lower states into pathologies and dysfunctions. It's a broken pathway from the divine. And as I said before, in order for an otherwise healthy individual on a mystical path to "turn to the darkside", to do a "Darth Vader move", there has to be a considerable amount of structures that have to break down in order to regress in pathological disorders like this.

It is important for people first taking up meditation practices to have "spotters" who can see what is happening with them, to gauge how their psyches are responding to the practice . If they exhibit these sorts of delusional patterns, then it is advisable they stop and get some psychiatric help first. Otherwise, if one is seen to properly integrate these things, then they are unlikely to fall into the "darkside". The point is, this is hardly the 'greatest issue facing mystics".

As I've been reading this dialog I've been thinking:

Over the years, I have achieved a "mystic" state on a number of occasions. While some of these have been related to mediation and intentional effort on my part, most of them, including the first such experience, simply happened--you might even say it was imposed on me.

While the experiences have changed me, I think, I'm not exactly convinced what they are indicative of. Are they a growth of my awareness? A connection to some condition that I already have but do not see (perhaps because of ego or relying on cognition rather than perception)? Is it growth of my spiritual being? A gift of the spirits, or the gods?

The experience is the experience. Everything else is memory of that experience, and cogitation--map making--based on the experiences and my more mundane knowledge that I piece together into a map of my world.

I guess the most pressing problem for me, individually, as a mystic is that aside from what I've already done with my experiences: had them, remember them, honor them, include them in my understanding, my map, of reality--what else, if anything, am I to do? Of late, because of my symptoms of depression, I am unable to easily enter a meditative state. I still consider myself open, but it has been years since I've actually experienced this so-called elevated state.

Sorry, just rambling.

The most pressing problem, -- shared with all the barefoot, berobed members of the spiritual classes -- is foot injury and soreness.
We haven't been able to find a decent pair of sandals since the '60s

Valjean said:

The most pressing problem, -- shared with all the barefoot, berobed members of the spiritual classes -- is foot injury and soreness.
We haven't been able to find a decent pair of sandals since the '60s

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lol!

Windwalker said:

Regarding what is being talked about as so-called "dark mystics", is that truly "the most pressing issue facing mystics"? The answer is most certainly not. What is being described is not a potential pitfall, or even a temptation or struggle for mystics in general. What is being described sounds potentially more indicative of the symptoms of those suffering with a psychiatric disorder such as schizophrenia. But that does lead to the question of the relationship between mystics and schizophrenics.

There are in fact some comparisons to be made, so I can see someone making the mistake in understanding that sort of disorder with a type of "dark mysticism". But it's actually not a result of mystical practices at all that opens someone to the "dark side", but rather a case of an existing disorder simply being attracted to the mystical because the nature of what mysticism is can be easily misconstrued to reinforce and validate the delusions that come with the disorder. Even those religious groups that ride the edge of the world of religion (mysticism aside) attract people with this disorder as it appears to them to fit into their delusional modes of thought, imagining themselves as having "the truth" and all others are deceived, or "lost" or whatever makes themselves right and everyone else just "not get it", like they do. They can easily fit in with that type of thinking in a group that has that as their own groupthink mentality. I've personally seen that many times.

What differentiates the mystic from the schizophrenic? It can be argued that the schizophrenic is having genuine mystical apprehensions, but what is off is the the normal editing and filtering functions of the egoic mind with which we translate such subtle states of consciousness are not functioning properly. As they move into the subconscious they are regressing, and then the higher level superconscious floods in and overtakes them and the whole thing is translated in lower functions. They become convinced they are especially gifted, singled out to know this secret truth, and depending on their ego-state, function with this from that place, feeling they have been empowered to overcome those who are against them with this special knowledge, and so forth.

There is a story from Baba Ram Dass when he visited a patient in a psychiatric hospital. The patient had been producing large volumes of material, which when Ram Dass read them could see they were incredibly and genuinely insightful of some of the greatest truths known to mystics. But he was also exhibiting pathological behaviors, such as lying, stealing, cheating, while telling everyone he was the Christ. He would say things like, "I've been given this and you haven't". Ram Dass said to him, "Do you think you're the Christ, the Christ in Pure Consciousness?" He answered him, yes, to which Ram Dass said, "Well I think I am too". The patient looks at him and says, "No, you don't understand". To which Ram Dass replied, "That's why they lock you up, you see."

The mystic on the other hand is able to integrate these deeper and higher truths in healthy ways, which makes them more compassionate and loving. They do not take these 'gifts' and turn them into extensions of broken egos. In fact, those who seek Truth for self-power only feed these lower functions, and a pathology could ensue. It is in fact not reaching higher or more "advanced" stages, but turning lower states into pathologies and dysfunctions. It's a broken pathway from the divine. And as I said before, in order for an otherwise healthy individual on a mystical path to "turn to the darkside", to do a "Darth Vader move", there has to be a considerable amount of structures that have to break down in order to regress in pathological disorders like this.

It is important for people first taking up meditation practices to have "spotters" who can see what is happening with them, to gauge how their psyches are responding to the practice . If they exhibit these sorts of delusional patterns, then it is advisable they stop and get some psychiatric help first. Otherwise, if one is seen to properly integrate these things, then they are unlikely to fall into the "darkside". The point is, this is hardly the 'greatest issue facing mystics".

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What Are the Most Pressing Problems Facing Mystics?
Discussion in 'Mysticism DIR' started by Sunstone, Tuesday at 9:52 AM.

The operative word is "Problems" and that word is "plural", more than one. From there it becomes "Most Pressing". And that which may be considered in the class "most pressing" to one person may not be considered in the class "most pressing" to another person. It all depends on one's personal challenges/experiences. And here we go again, if one disagrees with you they now begin to inter into the relm of "being a schizophrenic" . And a mystic has to be your definition of a mystic or they are "schizophrenic".

So let us discuss the word "schizoid" as it relates to the consept of "most pressing problems". Schizoid means out of touch with reality. Plain and simple. Everybody who has been up the pike a bit as a mystic knows that the mystic experience takes you out of this world of things and, generally speaking, that this world of things is "schizophrenic", . Out of touch with reality. To the world the mystic is "schizoid"/"schizophrenic", out of touch with reality and to the mystic the world is "schizoid"/"schizophrinic", out of touch with reality. And that can become one of the most pressing problems facing a mystic. But you say that if a mystic hasn't integrated or is attempting integrate themselves into the world, then they are not a true mystic and that they are schizophrenic. I do not know of any mystic that has ever claimed that the object of a true mystic is to integrate themselves into the world. Mr. Windwalker sir, you seem to be in a class of your own. But then the reason that you are a mystic is because someone told you that you were. But at the sametime I do consider you a mystic because you "do" have a gifted attachment to the "intuitive mind". And what I find an interesting study is how you use that attachment to the "intuitive mind" to explain to other mystics (mostly those with little experience) that the world is actually not "schizophrenic" and that to be a true mystic one should use the mystic experience to integrate themselves back into the world.

I personally find folks like that, one of the most pressing problems facing a mystic, especially a mystic that has not much time and grade with the mystic experience. And I am not saying that you do this on purpose, but a dark mystic does do this on purpose. They create an intellectual reality where the mystic is going in or should go in the opposite direction that a mystic is naturally headed. Is all .

mystic64 said:

The operative word is "Problems" and that word is "plural", more than one. From there it becomes "Most Pressing". And that which may be considered in the class "most pressing" to one person may not be considered in the class "most pressing" to another person.

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If that's the way you state it, then no problem. But that's not how you stated it. You said, "And they are one of, "the most pressing problems facing mystics." That is mystics that are seeking truth " You said it's one of the most pressing problems facing, not "one" but "mystics" in general. That is absolutely false. Do you wish to take back the way you said that? It certainly doesn't apply to me, or frankly any mystic I've ever personally met, which is quite a few. You blame me for reading it as you saying it applies to all mystics? I most certainly am seeing truth, but becoming Darth Vader is not a concern nor an issue for me - nor any other mystic I know. I am simply responding to your claim that it is, when it is in fact not. People reading this thread need to know this is not an actual concern for "mystics", in general.

mystic64 said:

And here we go again, if one disagrees with you they now begin to inter into the relm of "being a schizophrenic" . And a mystic has to be your definition of a mystic or they are "schizophrenic".

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What???? What kind of craziness is this? I disagree with many people, including YmirGF on a number of points of difference we have between us. I don't see him as "not a mystic", let alone having a psychiatric disorder! Shame on you for falsely accusing me of doing this.

mystic64 said:

So let us discuss the word "schizoid" as it relates to the consept of "most pressing problems". Schizoid means out of touch with reality. Plain and simple.

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No it does not. People are not diagnosed with schizophrenia because they see the world differently from others. That is only what some hack sitting at a bar with a beer gut spouting nonsense calls people he doesn't like. I'm talking about actual psychological disorders which harm someone and makes the dysfunctional. Not some mystic who sees that all is Brahman. The mystical is more than functional. They do not have a disorder.

My only point about bring up schizophrenia is to address what is an actual issue with mental illness and how it relates to mysticism, and how and why it does not. The "dark mystic", IMO has a problem not related to mystical practices or mysticism in general. It is not an issue for mystics. But mysticism can be an issue for those with that type of a disorder. The signals they get in the brains from the subconscious mind can become quite confused and cause them harm, deepening delusional patterns of thought, and so forth. Again, this is not an issue for mysticism, it's an issue from those who suffer from actual, bona fide, psychiatric disorders. And as such, it bears merit talking about it in this context.

mystic64 said:

Everybody who has been up the pike a bit as a mystic knows that the mystic experience takes you out of this world of things and, generally speaking, that this world of things is "schizophrenic", . Out of touch with reality. To the world the mystic is "schizoid"/"schizophrenic", out of touch with reality and to the mystic the world is "schizoid"/"schizophrinic", out of touch with reality. And that can become one of the most pressing problems facing a mystic.

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That some dude at a bar with a beer calls someone who seems "out of touch with reality" a schizophrenic does not make it a valid diagnosis. Again, I'm talking actual mental disorders here, not someone who is a mystic or a poet whom lay people may see as "crazy". That's not the same thing.

mystic64 said:

But you say that if a mystic hasn't integrated or is attempting integrate themselves into the world, then they are not a true mystic and that they are schizophrenic.

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Absolutely not! I am not saying that. I do not think that. I never have nor ever will utter those words. You accusation is both false and offensive. It is a shame you feel you need to do this to another. I think what you say of me is in fact what you see of yourself, your shadow, your projection. It is not me. It is a projection of your own ideas.

mystic64 said:

I do not know of any mystic that has ever claimed that the object of a true mystic is to integrate themselves into the world.

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The 10th panel of the Ox Herding pictures shows the mystic returning to normal life. This is in fact integrating mystic experience into everyday life, and everyday life into Emptiness. All of the tantric traditions in Buddhism are about embracing the world of form to find Emptiness and Form are not one, not two. Integrating ourselves into the world is in fact the highest state; fully awakened, fully alive.

I'm not going to reply any further to you on this topic of the "dark mystic", as clearly you are upset and responding as you are to me.

Windwalker said:

If that's the way you state it, then no problem. But that's not how you stated it. You said, "And they are one of, "the most pressing problems facing mystics." That is mystics that are seeking truth " You said it's one of the most pressing problems facing, not "one" but "mystics" in general. That is absolutely false. Do you wish to take back the way you said that? It certainly doesn't apply to me, or frankly any mystic I've ever personally met, which is quite a few. You blame me for reading it as you saying it applies to all mystics? I most certainly am seeing truth, but becoming Darth Vader is not a concern nor an issue for me - nor any other mystic I know. I am simply responding to your claim that it is, when it is in fact not. People reading this thread need to know this is not an actual concern for "mystics", in general.


What???? What kind of craziness is this? I disagree with many people, including YmirGF on a number of points of difference we have between us. I don't see him as "not a mystic", let alone having a psychiatric disorder! Shame on you for falsely accusing me of doing this.



No it does not. People are not diagnosed with schizophrenia because they see the world differently from others. That is only what some hack sitting at a bar with a beer gut spouting nonsense calls people he doesn't like. I'm talking about actual psychological disorders which harm someone and makes the dysfunctional. Not some mystic who sees that all is Brahman. The mystical is more than functional. They do not have a disorder.

My only point about bring up schizophrenia is to address what is an actual issue with mental illness and how it relates to mysticism, and how and why it does not. The "dark mystic", IMO has a problem not related to mystical practices or mysticism in general. It is not an issue for mystics. But mysticism can be an issue for those with that type of a disorder. The signals they get in the brains from the subconscious mind can become quite confused and cause them harm, deepening delusional patterns of thought, and so forth. Again, this is not an issue for mysticism, it's an issue from those who suffer from actual, bona fide, psychiatric disorders. And as such, it bears merit talking about it in this context.


That some dude at a bar with a beer calls someone who seems "out of touch with reality" a schizophrenic does not make it a valid diagnosis. Again, I'm talking actual mental disorders here, not someone who is a mystic or a poet whom lay people may see as "crazy". That's not the same thing.


Absolutely not! I am not saying that. I do not think that. I never have nor ever will utter those words. You accusation is both false and offensive. It is a shame you feel you need to do this to another. I think what you say of me is in fact what you see of yourself, your shadow, your projection. It is not me. It is a projection of your own ideas.


The 10th panel of the Ox Herding pictures shows the mystic returning to normal life. This is in fact integrating mystic experience into everyday life, and everyday life into Emptiness. All of the tantric traditions in Buddhism are about embracing the world of form to find Emptiness and Form are not one, not two. Integrating ourselves into the world is in fact the highest state; fully awakened, fully alive.

I'm not going to reply any further to you on this topic of the "dark mystic", as clearly you are upset and responding as you are to me.

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That was well said Mr. Windwalker sir ! And I am not angry, I am just studying your gifted connection to the "intuitive mind" and the directions that your questions take the answers. I personally find you amazing ! And because you are a message board "icon" and revered member and I am just an upstart running around loose, I have to be very careful what I say or I will be strung up . I don't have the options and freedoms that you do to go after one's character, "It is a shame you feel you need to do this to another. I think what you say to me is in fact what you see of your self, your shadow, your projection. It is not me. It is a projection of your own ideas.". And stuff like that.

"The 10th panel of the Ox Herding pictures shows the mystic returning to normal life." Yes it does ! But it is what the picture symbolizes that you and I differ on. And the definition of the concept of "integration" is also something that you and I differ on. The 10th panel represents the final test and it is not about integration in the normal sense of the word. It is about being able to wander about in and interact with this world of things without being affected by it, or trapped by it, or sucked into it. And when the mystic can do that, the mystic is free. It is not about changes in personality programming that make one more functional, because a mystic at that level does not have any personality programming . Or, they will never pass the final test and become free.

mystic64 said:

I don't have the options and freedoms that you do to go after one's character, "It is a shame you feel you need to do this to another. I think what you say to me is in fact what you see of your self, your shadow, your projection. It is not me. It is a projection of your own ideas.". And stuff like that.

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I am not going after your character, but trying to understand your actions and behaviors towards me, when nothing you say that I am doing even remotely resembles me. That is typically projecting one's own shadow on another. For instance, saying I am going after someone's character, while you just finished falsely accuse me of saying, "And here we go again, if one disagrees with you they now begin to inter into the relm of "being a schizophrenic"". That is most definitely a character assassination. You're lucky I haven't yet put you on ignore yet or reported you. But I have always been a believer in attempting reason, kindness, and patience first.

mystic64 said:

"The 10th panel of the Ox Herding pictures shows the mystic returning to normal life." Yes it does ! But it is what the picture symbolizes that you and I differ on. And the definition of the concept of "integration" is also something that you and I differ on.

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I wonder if you actually do understand what I mean by integration. I seriously doubt you do based on your responses. Would you care to tell me what you think that I am saying?

mystic64 said:

The 10th panel represents the final test and it is not about integration in the normal sense of the word. It is about being able to wander about in and interact with this world of things without being affected by it, or trapped by it, or sucked into it. And when the mystic can do that, the mystic is free.

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I very much disagree. It's not the final "test" at all. It's having realized Freedom in the 9th panel, he is now Free and can live life without struggle, without effort. Now comes the fulness part of things.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/weai/exeas/resources/oxherding.html#picture10

This is integrating Freedom into fullness, into life, into the world. It is not the "final test".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls

This is not a test to overcome the world. It is returning to the world already Free. It is taking Freedom and integrating Fullness, being a part of the world, integrated into it as an Enlightened soul.

http://www.jaysquare.com/ljohnson/ox-herding.html

This is what I mean by integrating oneselves in the world. The goal of the mystic is not escape, but integration. It is impossible, and ultimately self-defeating to attempt to hold oneself apart from this process. This is what I hear meant when Jesus says, "You are in the world but not of the world". You are IN the world. "You are the light of the world".

Where I feel the disagreement between us likely stems from is you seem to be saying that you need to escape the world, to remove yourself from it completely, to not attempt to integrate anything on the path of ascension to nirvana. In other words you subscribe to "Flee Samsara, seek Nirvana". And from this you read the Ox-Herding panels in the way you do, which is the "final test" to escape the world (something Zen is not teaching as you can see in all the examples above).

Where I see an integral approach is working both sides of the path of ascension (from the world to God), and the path of descension (from God to the world) at the same time. This is a type of tantric approach, recognizing that freedom is found in fullness, formlessness in form. The more full we are in the world, the more areas of realizing Freedom occur. To be out of balance in the world - inhibits us from finding God, or Freedom, or Realization. We grow spiritually best, when we are whole in body and mind. If we deny and suppress our own emotional and psychological self, we injure ourselves spiritually.

This is what is meant by an integral approach to things. We work to heal and grow the body and mind, in order to better realize the nature of God, or the Absolute in ourselves. It is simply a matter of aligning all things to the Realization of the divine in ourselves in the world. It does so through form, rather than denying and rejecting and fighting against it.

Does that help explain?

mystic64 said:

It is not about changes in personality programming that make one more functional, because a mystic at that level does not have any personality programming .

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Do you not have limbs and organs, a stomach, and a body either? Then why should you not have a personality? I think the thing you fail to understand is that you are still you, and will remain you complete with warts and all! The difference is you are no longer bound to it as if it is what defines who you are. You realize you are more than the body, but you still have a body. You realize you are more than your ego-self (personality), though you still have it. 10th panel of the ox-herder. He doesn't come back as a non-human. He comes back in full realization of himself. His humanity has been realized in his Enlightened being. He is "in the world, but not of the world". He is eternal, and human, warts, bad kees, sneezes, personality quirks, flaws, stomach cramps, and all.

mystic64 said:

Or, they will never pass the final test and become free.

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The 10th panel is after Freedom in the 9th where he "returns to source". Now he lives. Now he is "born again".

Windwalker said:

I am not going after your character, but trying to understand your actions and behaviors towards me, when nothing you say that I am doing even remotely resembles me. That is typically projecting one's own shadow on another. For instance, saying I am going after someone's character, while you just finished falsely accuse me of saying, "And here we go again, if one disagrees with you they now begin to inter into the relm of "being a schizophrenic"". That is most definitely a character assassination. You're lucky I haven't yet put you on ignore yet or reported you. But I have always been a believer in attempting reason, kindness, and patience first.


I wonder if you actually do understand what I mean by integration. I seriously doubt you do based on your responses. Would you care to tell me what you think that I am saying?


I very much disagree. It's not the final "test" at all. It's having realized Freedom in the 9th panel, he is now Free and can live life without struggle, without effort. Now comes the fulness part of things.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/weai/exeas/resources/oxherding.html#picture10

"Finally, the tenth picture shows the enlightened oxherd entering the town marketplace, doing all of the ordinary things that everyone else does. But because of his deep awareness everything he does is quite extraordinary. He does not retreat from the world, but shares his enlightened existence with everyone around him. Not only does he lead fishmongers and innkeepers in the way of the Buddha but, because of his creative energy and the radiance of his life, even withered trees bloom."
​

This is integrating Freedom into fullness, into life, into the world. It is not the "final test".

​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls

10. Return to Society

Barefooted and naked of breast,
I mingle with the people of the world.
My clothes are ragged and dust-laden,
and I am ever blissful.
I use no magic to extend my life;
Now, before me, the dead trees
become alive
​

This is not a test to overcome the world. It is returning to the world already Free. It is taking Freedom and integrating Fullness, being a part of the world, integrated into it as an Enlightened soul.

http://www.jaysquare.com/ljohnson/ox-herding.html

When the traveller on the Tao reaches his/her goal the 10,000 things are again just as they are, just as they were before entering the gateless gate. Nevertheless he/she is infinitely richer for the experience. Now his/her heart flows with the 10,000 things, ignoring the intoxication of senses and experiencing being MU directly. Everything is MU, MU is "alive", therefore everything is "alive" (or, if you prefer: interdependent and in constant evolution). Everyone is an integral part of the entire cosmos. Impossible (and therefore the attempt is self-defeating) to hold oneself apart from this universal process. Time and space collapse and a dead tree is also a sapling in bloom ("the beauty is invisible"). No longer obliged to follow the ideas (rules) of others, you become autonome, complete. Fully satisfied with oneself, and therefore with everyone and everything (Lord Buddha — upon His illumination: "My work in this life is finished"), there's no need to prolong (or shorten) one's life.
​

This is what I mean by integrating oneselves in the world. The goal of the mystic is not escape, but integration. It is impossible, and ultimately self-defeating to attempt to hold oneself apart from this process. This is what I hear meant when Jesus says, "You are in the world but not of the world". You are IN the world. "You are the light of the world".

Where I feel the disagreement between us likely stems from is you seem to be saying that you need to escape the world, to remove yourself from it completely, to not attempt to integrate anything on the path of ascension to nirvana. In other words you subscribe to "Flee Samsara, seek Nirvana". And from this you read the Ox-Herding panels in the way you do, which is the "final test" to escape the world (something Zen is not teaching as you can see in all the examples above).

Where I see an integral approach is working both sides of the path of ascension (from the world to God), and the path of descension (from God to the world) at the same time. This is a type of tantric approach, recognizing that freedom is found in fullness, formlessness in form. The more full we are in the world, the more areas of realizing Freedom occur. To be out of balance in the world - inhibits us from finding God, or Freedom, or Realization. We grow spiritually best, when we are whole in body and mind. If we deny and suppress our own emotional and psychological self, we injure ourselves spiritually.

This is what is meant by an integral approach to things. We work to heal and grow the body and mind, in order to better realize the nature of God, or the Absolute in ourselves. It is simply a matter of aligning all things to the Realization of the divine in ourselves in the world. It does so through form, rather than denying and rejecting and fighting against it.

Does that help explain?


Do you not have limbs and organs, a stomach, and a body either? Then why should you not have a personality? I think the thing you fail to understand is that you are still you, and will remain you complete with warts and all! The difference is you are no longer bound to it as if it is what defines who you are. You realize you are more than the body, but you still have a body. You realize you are more than your ego-self (personality), though you still have it. 10th panel of the ox-herder. He doesn't come back as a non-human. He comes back in full realization of himself. His humanity has been realized in his Enlightened being. He is "in the world, but not of the world". He is eternal, and human, warts, bad kees, sneezes, personality quirks, flaws, stomach cramps, and all.


The 10th panel is after Freedom in the 9th where he "returns to source". Now he lives. Now he is "born again".

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http://www.jaysquare.com/ljohnson/ox-herding.html

mystic64 said:

The above is a discription of a mystic without any personality programming . Mr. Windwalker sir, you do not see how it is possible to be a flesh and blood person and not have any personality programming because you have not stepped through the "gateless gate", the third Dharma Seal.

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Are you so certain about what I have and have not experienced? Based on what? Because I disagree with your bad reasoning? Perhaps you want to say I'm not a "true mystic", because I don't agree with you? This is what you accused me of saying, which I never did, yet here you are assuming what I must not have experienced because if I had, surely I would agree with you. It's rather amusing to me to what you doing what you falsely accused me of doing. As I said, this is what projection is.

To say you have no personality programming as a mystic is completely delusional. Of course you do. You're still a person. Does that personality programming affect the mystical experience? Of course it does. We have discussed this previously. You have to interpret the experience, and that is dragging all that up with you. If you think it isn't, that is itself delusional thinking, and not truly understanding the nature of the nondual. It's a form of denial, which is not embracing nonduality.

Are you a mystic? Sure. Is your understanding the best there is? Hardly so.

mystic64 said:

And yes Mr. Windwalker sir, the basic message that you seem to be teaching, love, light, and life, is a gift to the Community of Humankind, but it is not what Buddha was teaching or the goal of a mystic that is exploring a union with the "unknown". And as long as you are affected be any residual aspects of your personality progamming you are maybe a beautiful person and a gift to peace and love, but you are not a person that has stepped through the "gateless gate" and attained an understanding of freedom.

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Yeah, whatever. As I said in my previous response, you seem to be on the path of "Flee samsara, seek nirvanha." That's fine, but it's not the end game. It's the beginning. As the saying goes, "After the ecstasy, the laundry." From the One to the many, not just from the many to the One.

This describes what I am saying,

"The world is illusory;
Brahman alone is real;
Brahman is the world.

~ Ramana Maharshi

I believe you stop at the second phrase and assume anything else, the third line isn't real. You need to allow others an understanding that you may actually find some benefit to yourself in understanding if you care to listen, rather than assuming you're some "advanced" mystic, whatever that self-ranking means to you. That you are on a path to the One, I congratulate you. If you put on the shoes of humility, you may go farther.

mystic64 said:

Once you step through the "gateless gate" you begin to understand that all aspects to your personality programming are not necessary (the ninth panel) and from there you and the "just is" become "just are" (the tenth panel).

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They aren't necessary to know the One, but to know the One in the many, it most certainly is! If you don't have your own personality in the world, you cannot function. You are not "Brahman is the world". You'd be a non-human. The goal of Enlightenment is not to remove your brain and be a glowing husk that does nothing.

mystic64 said:

At that point you are in this world but not of it and this world will have no effect on you.

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To a certain extent this is true, but I doubt in the sense you mean it. If you cut an enlightened person with a sword, I'm quite certain it will have an effect on him! He'll bleed and die (unless you believe in magic or something). We still have emotions. Being enlightened does not mean you will not experience pain. You will. It doesn't mean you won't cry. You will. It doesn't mean you won't get angry. You will.

If you believe everything I just said there is not true, that you will no longer cry, feel pain, get angry, or any negative emotions - that all you feel is bliss and happiness, never again to feel pain or regrets or guilt or shame, then I'd say you are trying to escape your own life, not find Life. Trying to escape your own life, is in fact, a pursuit of the ego-self. I'll say that one more time. To seek to get away from the pain of this world, is to be seeing for an ego-need. It has the ego as the focus. I know this to be true. To find Peace in our own pains, is the result, not getting rid of them.

mystic64 said:

How do you interact with this world with no personallity programming? Hindu scripture: "I do not need to know because God knows." Your personallity programming becomes the personality programming of the "profoundly powerful force with a conscious mind"/or the "unknown"/or the infinite ocean and believe it or not the "profoundly powerful force with a conscious mind"/the "unknown"/the "infinite ocean" does not have any personallity programming. None.

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Yeah, no. That's not correct. This is a mythological interpretation you are espousing. Does the Infinite enlighten and illuminate the finite self? Absolutely!!! Does it replace it? No. That's not the point. You shouldn't be seeking to make it that. I know for a fact right now I'm talking with a very fallible human talking out of his personality programming. It's quite clear to me to be the case. You are not an oracle mouthpiece of the divine, like imaging the Bible was delivered by dictation.

mystic64 said:

A mystic that has stepped through the "gateless gate" is only a direct gift to humanity in the physical relm if is it is the "will" of the "infinite ocean"/the unknown".

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I have stepped through that gateless gate. I have seen the true nature of things. I have tasted that One Taste. What you say of the rest of this is just your imagination of what it would be like, like imagining Jesus did not have a personality of his own, flaws, or that he had to grow, that what he said to the world was not filtered through his own unique experiences. This is the stuff of mythology. It's a mythological interpretation of the Absolute you are trying to impose upon it, which goes to show in fact everything I have been saying all along. You are interpreting these things through your own filters - in this case mythological ones. You assume that when you become Enlightened, your warts will all go away. You will be perfect, and not this miserable person who has let you down so many times in this fallen, sinful world. It's like a Christian interpretation of Hinduism, where you become perfect in your resurrection body.

Does every thread end up like this?

allfoak said:

Does every thread end up like this?

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Not any more. I've determined the ignore feature is necessary. I should have realized sooner.

Windwalker said:

Not any more. I've determined the ignore feature is necessary. I should have realized sooner.

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Windwalker sir, I have decided that you and people like you are the only true mystics. My message is wrong, so in all fareness to all concerned I have decided to get off of this message board and not go look for another one. It is time for me to do as you have suggested and go out and explore life and give up the message board mystic life. Thank you Mr. Windwalker sir for your gentle push and your wisdom, it is appreciated. And thank you everybody from management on down for allowing me to be here. That is appreciated also.

May you all be blessed and prosper,
Mystic64

Yay!!! I am free!!! And a merry to all !!!

Mystic has left the building to explore the 10th picture.

The most pressing problems mystics in general?
Being misunderstood, becoming trapped in the desire for more experiences, becoming proud of one's experiences...off the top of my head.

Misunderstanding is a given, since we are talking about something that is only understood by experience.
I know that being trapped in the desire for mystical experiences can be an issue from personal experience - I went through a period of that during my early years on the road of the mystic, and I knew others who did as well.
Becoming proud can be an issue sometimes. People can develop delusions of grandeur, coming to believe they are receiving special (possibly exclusive) knowledge via their experiences. This sort of thing is rampant in apostolic Christianity. I have (unfortunately) known one such individual personally...It was very hard to deal with, and incidentally, is the sort of thing that leads to even more misunderstands or even persecution.

Sunstone said:

What are the most pressing or serious problems facing mystics as a group?

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Distractions from the Material Plane.