robtex said:
I don't know if forged is a good term. Paul created christianity the bigger question, and I would have to read more on it to, is how it caught on. Who talked about it and to whom. About the religion costing him his life, he couldn't predict that would happen.
Anybody got any information on his brother, James? I figure if James could be historically mapped, even just a few of his years, than Jesus should have connected to James. Also I have heard claims that the city of Nazareth came into being in 100-150 ad.
Anybody have verification on when Nazareth became a town?
According to the holylandnetwork Nazareth is not mentioned in the 45 towns of Galilee nor is spoken of in the Talmud during the time Jesus is speculated to have lived during.
http://www.holylandnetwork.com/nazareth/nazareth.htm
The more you look on the internet, the more you find people who deny the existance of Nazareth; one such is from:-http://messianic.nazirene.org/nazir.htm
The evidence for a 1st century town of Nazareth does not exist not literary, not archaeologically, and not historically.
Biblical scholars and clergy alike have always had difficulty accepting the possibility that at the time of Jesus there was no city called Nazareth. They have always resisted this possibility and sometimes, quite vigorously.
The Encyclopaedia Biblica, a work written by theologians, and perhaps the greatest biblical reference work in the English language, says:
"We cannot venture to assert positively that there was a city of Nazareth in Jesus' time."
Nazareth is not mentioned in any historical records or biblical texts of the time and receives no mention by any contemporary historian. Nazareth is not mentioned in the Old Testament, the Talmud (the Jewish law code), nor in the Apocrypha and it does not appear in any early rabbinic literature.
Nazareth was not included in the list of settlements of the tribes of Zebulon (Joshua 19:10-16) which mentions twelve towns and six villages, and Nazareth is not included among the 45 cities of Galilee that were mentioned by Josephus (37AD-100AD), a widely traveled historian who never missed anything and who voluminously describes the region. The name is also missing from the 63 towns of Galilee mentioned in the Talmud.
The first reference to Nazareth is in the New Testament where it can be found 29 different times. However, there is still cause for speculation as to whether or not the city existed at the time of Jesus. It is mentioned only in the Gospels and Acts. These books do refer to Nazareth, but they did not originate at this time, they are later writings. The earlier writings of the NT (Paul etc) mention Jesus 221 times - but never mention Nazareth.
But this one:-
http://kevin.davnet.org/articles/jesus_exist.html answers both questions.
Did Jesus Really Exist?
With well over a billion Christians (myself included) and nearly a billion Muslims, for whom the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth is an article of faith, plus rows upon rows of Historical Jesus books, one might think that the question posed above was nonsense. The fact of the matter is that some Christians have false views about how strong the evidence of the historical Jesus is, and some anti-Christians have false views about how weak the evidence is. What I would like to do on this page is to explode some of the myths on both sides.
The Myths
The Archko Volume The
Archko Volume has some truly wonderful documents detailing aspects of Jesus' life as told by prominent historical figures. Chapters include: "Jonathan's interview with the Bethlehem shepherds--Letter of Melker, Priest of the Synagogue at Bethlehem", "Report of Caiaphas to the Sanhedrim concerning the execution of Jesus", "Gamaliel's interview with Joseph and Mary and others concerning Jesus", "Herod Antipater's defense before the Roman Senate in regard to his conduct at Bethlehem" and "Pilate's report to Caesar of the arrest, trial, and crucifixion of Jesus". The book is a complete and utter fraud, written by a Presbyterian minister named Mahan in the 19th century. He got kicked out of his church for writing it. For details, see
Modern Apocrypha by Edgar Goodspeed, Beacon Press, 1956. It's out of print, but not impossible to find.
Dates (early/late) of the Gospels Briefly, some on the affirmative side have unreasonably early dates for the writing of the Christian Gospels (the 40's) and some on the negative have unreasonably late (2nd century) dates for the writing of the Gospels. While the actual dates of the composition of the Gospels is subject of much debate, most authorities place their writing somewhere between these two extremes. I have compiled some fairly
standard dates from commentaries and reference works.
Josephus proves Jesus existed Flavius Josephus was a Jew born some time around 30 AD (near the date of Jesus' death according to the Gospels). He was a Jewish military leader who later became a historian for the Romans. He might be considered a Jewish apologist. In any case, Josephus wrote extensively, and is probably the best source we have for historical events in 1st-century Palestine. The bias of his reporting is debated, but what is of interest here is the two references in Josephus to Jesus. The main citation is from Josephus'
Antiquities of the Jews 18:3.3, popularly called the
Testimonium Flavium. It says in part: "Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; Pilate...condemned him to the cross...and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." We know that after Christians took over the Roman empire through the conversion of Emperor Constantine, various forgeries and alterations (sometimes called "interpolations") were made in documents. The
Testimonium Flavium is widely thought to have been one of those interpolations.
All historians know that the mentions of Jesus in Josephus are Christian forgeries It is true that there is significant doubt by historians about the authenticity of the citations about Jesus in Josephus. However, it is far from true that all historians believe that there is no authentic mention of Jesus in Josephus. Certainly the
Testimonium Flavium sounds rather too good to be true, but the other reference, a passing one mentioning Jesus, is thought by many historians to be authentic. That text in
Antiquities 20:9.1 says "Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned."
Jesus was not on the list "The fact that Jesus is missing from the meticulously-kept Roman list of executions, proves that the crucifixion of Jesus never happened." The fact of the matter is, there is no such list.
Citations from Roman Historians prove Jesus existed There are several, but their value is limited. None were eyewitnesses to anything. About all they prove is that some time around 60 AD there was a group called Christians.
The Gospels are Fiction "The Gospels are fiction, therefore Jesus never existed." That's really begging the question. We do know that some things in the Gospels are not fiction, like John the Baptist (mentioned in Josephus), Herod and Pontius Pilate. Those are historical figures. The ossuary of the high priest Caiaphas was recently unearthed.
The Gospels are Miraculously Accurate, therefore they must be completely true This, again, is begging the question but from the other side.
The lack of independent documentation of Jesus from the 1st Century proves Jesus was fictional There is a general lack of documentation on just about everything from 1st Century Palestine. Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, which might have contributed to this lack of documentation.
Christianity is just like other religions of its day, e.g. Mithraism There are striking similarities between Christianity and Mithraism including a resurrected savior and a sacred meal. Therefore "Christianity is a fiction made by adapting Mithraism." There are also striking differences. If you look just at the similarities, they look persuasive--but only if you ignore the differences.
Jesus came from a fictional town The argument here goes that the town of Nazareth, which is Jesus' "hometown" according to the Gospels did not even exist until hundreds of years after his death. It is true that Nazareth is not mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures. However there is
archaeological evidence that the town we now call Nazareth had been inhabited since 400 BC. As far as I am concerned, Jesus lived; where and when are of no consequence (to me); I believe he was the incarnate son of God, and that is all I need.