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Did Jesus ever Live ?

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
Rob, interesting and eye opening post. But a few questions. If Paul created Christianity, then the gospels where forged by him also? And what would be the purpose of him doing so? Was he not well to do, then with this new religion, cost him his life?
 

robtex

Veteran Member
jeffrey said:
Rob, interesting and eye opening post. But a few questions. If Paul created Christianity, then the gospels where forged by him also? And what would be the purpose of him doing so? Was he not well to do, then with this new religion, cost him his life?
I don't know if forged is a good term. Paul created christianity the bigger question, and I would have to read more on it to, is how it caught on. Who talked about it and to whom. About the religion costing him his life, he couldn't predict that would happen.

Anybody got any information on his brother, James? I figure if James could be historically mapped, even just a few of his years, than Jesus should have connected to James. Also I have heard claims that the city of Nazareth came into being in 100-150 ad. Anybody have verification on when Nazareth became a town?

According to the holylandnetwork Nazareth is not mentioned in the 45 towns of Galilee nor is spoken of in the Talmud during the time Jesus is speculated to have lived during.
http://www.holylandnetwork.com/nazareth/nazareth.htm
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
niceguy said:
He definity existed in a spirutal sense, that is what is really imortant. If the Christan faith are worth anything, then any facts regarding the physical persons existance or not cannot change that.

Isn't that line of thinking one of the classic heresies?
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
robtex said:
I don't know if you could have evidence that someone did not exist.

Hm. You might have texts or traditions that amounted to "Paul was a fakir and made everything up!"
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
jeffrey said:
Rob, interesting and eye opening post. But a few questions. If Paul created Christianity, then the gospels where forged by him also? And what would be the purpose of him doing so? Was he not well to do, then with this new religion, cost him his life?

Paul created Pauline Christianity. The Gospels, however, came from earlier sources. There was definitely a community of believers prior to Paul's writing and activity. For instance, the Thomas community split prior to the year 40. Their "brand" of Xy is quite different from the Pauline.

While Paul doesn't deal much with the historical Jesus, there were some early communities that did. I think it's unwise to pin the veracity of Jesus' historical existence on the Pauline letters.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
robtex said:
Anybody got any information on his brother, James? I figure if James could be historically mapped, even just a few of his years, than Jesus should have connected to James. Also I have heard claims that the city of Nazareth came into being in 100-150 ad. Anybody have verification on when Nazareth became a town?

Apparently if you go to Jerusalem and visit the Syriac Orthodox Church, you can meet some descendants of Jesus' family. Like it's common in the Middle East, they actually remember their lineage that far back, and farther.

They were on a "Digging for the Truth" the other evening. Interesting bunch. They still speak Aramaic and use it as their liturgical language.
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
Rob brings out some valid points. Does anybody have links that can show a counterpoint to his links?
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
The site Rob links continues on to say this.....

Nazareth is not included in the 45 cities of the Galilee that mentioned by Josephus the historian and its name is missing from the 63 towns of Galilee mentioned in the Talmud. It was not expected to have a prophet, a king, or priest to ever come out of Nazareth. This prompted the response of Nathaniel in John 1:46 "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Nazareth was isolated in ancient times because no trade routes ran through the city therefore had no economical value.

At 20-33 AD the beginning Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth mark of the start of the Common Era. Excavations conducted in the region and remains of pottery prove a continuous settlement during the period 900-600 BCE of Jewish villages and Hellenized Syrians towns.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
robtex said:
According to religious tolerance.org there is no writings mentioning Jesus in the time frame that he lived.

Except, of course, the New Testament and the writings of the early church fathers. I imagine that Jesus is mentioned more than a few times in the 26 documents and the several letters of the earliest Christian bishops.

It is absurd, of course, to limit the possible time frame of a historical reference to only a hypothetical lifespan. Several ancient writers wrote on people who lived hundreds of years before them...
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
I do find the teachings of Christ, whether or not he did exist, to be quite amazing. I would love to hear someone explain Rob's post from a Christian perspective, other then just faith.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
robtex said:
Also I have heard claims that the city of Nazareth came into being in 100-150 ad. Anybody have verification on when Nazareth became a town?

Fascinating. I've never heard this before. I will look into it.
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
I believe he definantly lived. Why? Because I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and it says that he lived. I don't neccesarily believe that he was born on December 25th, but that's not important. The Bible never says that he was born on the 25th.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
robtex said:
Anybody got any information on his brother, James? I figure if James could be historically mapped, even just a few of his years, than Jesus should have connected to James.

The Book of James in the NT is supposed to have been written by Jesus' brother. Also, there is the Secret Book of James in the Gnostic texts.

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/1ja.html
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
robtex said:
I don't know if forged is a good term. Paul created christianity the bigger question, and I would have to read more on it to, is how it caught on. Who talked about it and to whom. About the religion costing him his life, he couldn't predict that would happen.

Anybody got any information on his brother, James? I figure if James could be historically mapped, even just a few of his years, than Jesus should have connected to James. Also I have heard claims that the city of Nazareth came into being in 100-150 ad. Anybody have verification on when Nazareth became a town?

According to the holylandnetwork Nazareth is not mentioned in the 45 towns of Galilee nor is spoken of in the Talmud during the time Jesus is speculated to have lived during.
http://www.holylandnetwork.com/nazareth/nazareth.htm

The more you look on the internet, the more you find people who deny the existance of Nazareth; one such is from:-http://messianic.nazirene.org/nazir.htm

The evidence for a 1st century town of Nazareth does not exist – not literary, not archaeologically, and not historically.
Biblical scholars and clergy alike have always had difficulty accepting the possibility that at the time of Jesus there was no city called “Nazareth.” They have always resisted this possibility and sometimes, quite vigorously.
The Encyclopaedia Biblica, a work written by theologians, and perhaps the greatest biblical reference work in the English language, says: "We cannot venture to assert positively that there was a city of Nazareth in Jesus' time."
Nazareth is not mentioned in any historical records or biblical texts of the time and receives no mention by any contemporary historian. Nazareth is not mentioned in the Old Testament, the Talmud (the Jewish law code), nor in the Apocrypha and it does not appear in any early rabbinic literature.
Nazareth was not included in the list of settlements of the tribes of Zebulon (Joshua 19:10-16) which mentions twelve towns and six villages, and Nazareth is not included among the 45 cities of Galilee that were mentioned by Josephus (37AD-100AD), a widely traveled historian who never missed anything and who voluminously describes the region. The name is also missing from the 63 towns of Galilee mentioned in the Talmud.
The first reference to Nazareth is in the New Testament where it can be found 29 different times. However, there is still cause for speculation as to whether or not the city existed at the time of Jesus. It is mentioned only in the Gospels and Acts. These books do refer to Nazareth, but they did not originate at this time, they are later writings. The earlier writings of the NT (Paul etc) mention Jesus 221 times - but never mention Nazareth.

But this one:- http://kevin.davnet.org/articles/jesus_exist.html answers both questions.

Did Jesus Really Exist?

With well over a billion Christians (myself included) and nearly a billion Muslims, for whom the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth is an article of faith, plus rows upon rows of Historical Jesus books, one might think that the question posed above was nonsense. The fact of the matter is that some Christians have false views about how strong the evidence of the historical Jesus is, and some anti-Christians have false views about how weak the evidence is. What I would like to do on this page is to explode some of the myths on both sides.
The Myths

The Archko Volume The Archko Volume has some truly wonderful documents detailing aspects of Jesus' life as told by prominent historical figures. Chapters include: "Jonathan's interview with the Bethlehem shepherds--Letter of Melker, Priest of the Synagogue at Bethlehem", "Report of Caiaphas to the Sanhedrim concerning the execution of Jesus", "Gamaliel's interview with Joseph and Mary and others concerning Jesus", "Herod Antipater's defense before the Roman Senate in regard to his conduct at Bethlehem" and "Pilate's report to Caesar of the arrest, trial, and crucifixion of Jesus". The book is a complete and utter fraud, written by a Presbyterian minister named Mahan in the 19th century. He got kicked out of his church for writing it. For details, see Modern Apocrypha by Edgar Goodspeed, Beacon Press, 1956. It's out of print, but not impossible to find. Dates (early/late) of the Gospels Briefly, some on the affirmative side have unreasonably early dates for the writing of the Christian Gospels (the 40's) and some on the negative have unreasonably late (2nd century) dates for the writing of the Gospels. While the actual dates of the composition of the Gospels is subject of much debate, most authorities place their writing somewhere between these two extremes. I have compiled some fairly standard dates from commentaries and reference works. Josephus proves Jesus existed Flavius Josephus was a Jew born some time around 30 AD (near the date of Jesus' death according to the Gospels). He was a Jewish military leader who later became a historian for the Romans. He might be considered a Jewish apologist. In any case, Josephus wrote extensively, and is probably the best source we have for historical events in 1st-century Palestine. The bias of his reporting is debated, but what is of interest here is the two references in Josephus to Jesus. The main citation is from Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 18:3.3, popularly called the Testimonium Flavium. It says in part: "Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; Pilate...condemned him to the cross...and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." We know that after Christians took over the Roman empire through the conversion of Emperor Constantine, various forgeries and alterations (sometimes called "interpolations") were made in documents. The Testimonium Flavium is widely thought to have been one of those interpolations. All historians know that the mentions of Jesus in Josephus are Christian forgeries It is true that there is significant doubt by historians about the authenticity of the citations about Jesus in Josephus. However, it is far from true that all historians believe that there is no authentic mention of Jesus in Josephus. Certainly the Testimonium Flavium sounds rather too good to be true, but the other reference, a passing one mentioning Jesus, is thought by many historians to be authentic. That text in Antiquities 20:9.1 says "Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned." Jesus was not on the list "The fact that Jesus is missing from the meticulously-kept Roman list of executions, proves that the crucifixion of Jesus never happened." The fact of the matter is, there is no such list. Citations from Roman Historians prove Jesus existed There are several, but their value is limited. None were eyewitnesses to anything. About all they prove is that some time around 60 AD there was a group called Christians. The Gospels are Fiction "The Gospels are fiction, therefore Jesus never existed." That's really begging the question. We do know that some things in the Gospels are not fiction, like John the Baptist (mentioned in Josephus), Herod and Pontius Pilate. Those are historical figures. The ossuary of the high priest Caiaphas was recently unearthed. The Gospels are Miraculously Accurate, therefore they must be completely true This, again, is begging the question but from the other side. The lack of independent documentation of Jesus from the 1st Century proves Jesus was fictional There is a general lack of documentation on just about everything from 1st Century Palestine. Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, which might have contributed to this lack of documentation. Christianity is just like other religions of its day, e.g. Mithraism There are striking similarities between Christianity and Mithraism including a resurrected savior and a sacred meal. Therefore "Christianity is a fiction made by adapting Mithraism." There are also striking differences. If you look just at the similarities, they look persuasive--but only if you ignore the differences. Jesus came from a fictional town The argument here goes that the town of Nazareth, which is Jesus' "hometown" according to the Gospels did not even exist until hundreds of years after his death. It is true that Nazareth is not mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures. However there is archaeological evidence that the town we now call Nazareth had been inhabited since 400 BC. As far as I am concerned, Jesus lived; where and when are of no consequence (to me); I believe he was the incarnate son of God, and that is all I need.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
The Encyclopaedia Biblica, a work written by theologians, and perhaps the greatest biblical reference work in the English language, says: "We cannot venture to assert positively that there was a city of Nazareth in Jesus' time."

This conclusion may have to be revised if Roman baths have actually been discovered in Nazareth in 2003.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...067930,00.html

Found at:
http://www.uoregon.edu/~mharrsch/200...h_archive.html

Referenced also at:
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/040597.htm
http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives/000491.html
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Buttercup said:
The site Rob links continues on to say this.....

Nazareth is not included in the 45 cities of the Galilee that mentioned by Josephus the historian and its name is missing from the 63 towns of Galilee mentioned in the Talmud. It was not expected to have a prophet, a king, or priest to ever come out of Nazareth. This prompted the response of Nathaniel in John 1:46 "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Nazareth was isolated in ancient times because no trade routes ran through the city therefore had no economical value.

At 20-33 AD the beginning Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth mark of the start of the Common Era. Excavations conducted in the region and remains of pottery prove a continuous settlement during the period 900-600 BCE of Jewish villages and Hellenized Syrians towns.

There are quite a few towns near where I live that have undergone name changes -- just within the last 150 years. Isn't it conceivable that Nazareth had previously been known by other names, as well?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
sojourner said:
There are quite a few towns near where I live that have undergone name changes -- just within the last 150 years. Isn't it conceivable that Nazareth had previously been known by other names, as well?

In this case this hypothesis seems unlikely to me. Also, Christians did have opponents - like Pliny the Younger - who did not ridicule the idiot Christians who followed a man supposedly from a made-up town.

EDIT: Of course it may well be that Pliny did not know that Jesus was from Nazareth. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/pliny.html. It's not mentioned.
 

ProfLogic

Well-Known Member
Christiangirl0909 said:
I believe he definantly lived. Why? Because I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and it says that he lived. I don't neccesarily believe that he was born on December 25th, but that's not important. The Bible never says that he was born on the 25th.

Sorry to use your quote but you might want to read some of the pagan epics. You might see that there is a very strong possibility that most of the important events from the bible was taken from the babylonian epics. Let your mind be free of the manipulation and read it objectively. I am not here to change your beliefs but here to just have a 2 way dialogue since most of the priest and religious folks I talk to refuse to address this possibility and even read some of the pre christianity writings. All I know is man have never improved. There are always a few that want to start their own ways, no matter the consequences. Religion was their vessel. All I ask is open your mind and read writings that were authenticated and found to be hundreds of years before the bible. I have been researching and most of the writings about Jesus where done way after his life. If people believed during that time that he was god, its pretty suspcious that no one ever wrote anything during Jesus' childhood, not even the fabled 3 kings. Kings that should have access to numerous writers but no stories in other cultures that I know of. I am not here to convert anyone, but I just wanted you to read and see for yourself.
 
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