In Support of the Bible, pt.5: "The Exodus & Red Sea Crossing."

Shad said:

You mistake Josephus theology for history, as he did.

Irrelevant to your claims as evidence which contradicts your view exists.

Click to expand...

Hawkins said:

*

Click to expand...

Ingledsva said:

I'll assume you mean Titus Flavius Josephus.

Josephus was not there. He is first century. And a lot of what Josephus has said has been found to be wrong, - or made up.

Josephus just repeats what he has read or heard. There is no proof in his writings about Exodus.

Here is an online site for people to read what he did write about Exodus. http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-2.htm

There is NO Archaeological evidence for the Exodus. And NO corroborating writings, - from the Egyptians for instance, or other groups whom would have written about such a huge group of people crossing the caravan routes in that small desert.

Click to expand...

Hawkins said:

So you are still clueless.

Let me make it simpler for you . Show us a history book which is supported by archaeology.

Among the thousands of nations ever existed on earth ever since humans can write. Shed us some light on how much written history is supported by archaeology?

Click to expand...

Hawkins said:

Again, let me make it clearer for you. Show us a history book ever existed, out of the thousands have ever been written, which is evidenced by archaeology and the like!

Click to expand...

greentwiga said:

There is a variety of supporting evidence for the Exodus. The Ipuwer papyrus, at a minimum shows that ten plague like events were possible.
If you put the Israelites running for seven days, and then walking fast and the Egyptian horsemen then chasing them, the only body of wateris the gulf of Aqaba
The Gulf of Aqaba is the only sea with reeds growing in it, and had more before most streams were diverted for irrigation.
This make the most likely place for the Mt Sinai near Petra, a place reworked often in history.
The time is often quoted as 480 years before Solomon, but the Septuagint lists it as 440 years.
Using that time, we have the Dream Stele, A Pharaoh going to unusual lengths to show the death of his older (first born) brother was ordained by a God.
A study of the word Hebrew in the Old Testament shows it was only used when talking with Pharaoh, or when taking of slaves.
It was only in New Testament times that Hebrew came to be applied to Israelites by Israelites.
If Hebrew was the term that Egyptians used to refer to people like the Israelites, then Canaanites writing to the Pharaoh would have used that term
In the Amarna tablets, we have Canaanites using Apiru to refer to invaders,
These tablets date to Amenhotep III or Akhenaten (1370-1330 BC) , right when the Israelites invade (1366-1360 BC)
Therefore, though there is no evidence for the Exodus, defined narrowly, there is plenty of supporting evidence.

Click to expand...

Ingledsva said:

Not so.

"The admonitions of Ipuwer
It is impossible to give a date for the composition of this document. The surviving papyrus (Papyrus Leiden 334) itself is a copy made during the New Kingdom. Ipuwer is generally supposed to have lived during the Middle Kingdom or the Second Intermediate Period, and the catastrophes he bewails to have taken place four centuries earlier during the First Intermediate Period.
On the other hand, Miriam Lichtheim, following S. Luria, contends that the 'Admonitions of Ipuwer' has not only no bearing whatever on the long past First Intermediate Period, it also does not derive from any other historical situation. It is the last, fullest, most exaggerated and hence least successful, composition on the theme "order versus chaos."
M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Volume I, p.150

Fringe historians often compare the content of this papyrus with Exodus, the second book of the Bible. ..."

All of you can read it here - http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/ipuwer.htm

And here is the BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY page DEBUNKING all of these and more.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2006/09/20/Debunking-The-Exodus-Decoded.aspx

"The exhibits of The Exodus Decoded do not stand up to scrutiny in the court of objective scholarship. Archaeological data are wrenched from their chronological contexts and forced into a different time frame to fit the filmmaker’s reconstruction. What is more, the film is replete with factual errors. Although the production is offered as a serious and accurate documentary, it is not accurate and it cannot be taken seriously. There is little of substance in The Exodus Decoded for those seeking valid historical and archaeological information on the Exodus."

*

Click to expand...

greentwiga said:

Are you replying to me or to what others have said, others who I don't accept?

As to the Ipwer papyrus, I never claimed that it was the Egyptian recounting of the ten plagues. Whether this writing refers to First intermetiate times, second intermediate, or is a fiction that pulls together various calamities, it shows what I said, that the ten plagues are possible.

Click to expand...

Ingledsva said:

As I said; I actually studied Archaeology, - and there is NO evidence for the Exodus.

No archaeological material, and no written corroborating material.

*

Click to expand...

greentwiga said:

So saying there is "no archaeological material" proves your case? If the Exodus was in ~1406 BC and the Dream Stele was written in 1401 BC, don't we have possible corroborating evidence of an older brother/crown prince dying unexpectedly? If the Old Testament is right that the term Hebrew/Apiru is a term used by Egyptians to describe the Israelites and other Semites, then the Tablets (1360-1330 BC) could record the invasion (~1366-1360 BC) since the letters address the Pharaoh and again use the term Apiru. Again, possible corroborating evidence.

Click to expand...

Hockeycowboy said:

With all the dispute regarding the Bible's authenticity, I though I'd post some evidences in favor of it being accurate.

Click to expand...

• ... that it is of undisputed origin?
• ... that some of it conveys metaphoric truths?
• ... that some of it is literally accurate?
• ... that all of it is Holy Writ?[//list]
  
  

  Hockeycowboy said:

  "The Exodus and the Red Sea Crossing
  Is there any archeological evidence of the events that led up to the Exodus and/or IsraEl's escape through a parted Red Sea? Yes, however it is simply ignored by secular historians. For example, notice how a plague-like destruction is described as coming upon Egypt on a fragmented stela that is located on the third pylon of the Karnak temple (see 'The Tempest Stele of Ahmose I'). It is interesting that this stela has been dated to around the death of Ahmose I, who may well be the pharaoh of the Exodus). If you read it, you can clearly see that this appears to be a description of one of the plagues that God sent upon Egypt before Israel's departure, as it was explained from the viewpoint of the hard-hearted ruler of that country.
  
  What is the opinion of secular 'scholars?' Note the added comment after the translation of the stele, as is found on the site, The Tempest Stele of Ahmose I:
  'This text, like so many others, is grist for the busy mills of Bible apologists, in this case of those attempting to find proof for the Biblical plagues and the Exodus. The incongruities of their arguments do not seem to bother them, but it might be better for them to accept that (to this date at least) no archaeological proof has been found yet for anything written about in the Bible pertaining to the Bronze Age, save possibly the mere existence of the people of Israel.'
  
  So note: According to this explanation, the evidence can't be accepted due to a lack of evidence… and the fact that there is an IsraEl and that they have written records, doesn't count. Can this statement be considered truly objective? Although history and archeology are virtually FILLED with proofs of the Exodus, secular critics continue to claim that they don't exist! Consider for example, the fact that Egypt's historical records tell of a people called the Hyksos, who are obviously the IsraElites, since they lived in Egypt during the same period, and they were identified as such by no less than the noted ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus in his famous work, Antiquities of the Jews. And in fact, modern Egyptian records show that the Pharaohs of the Sixteenth Egyptian Dynasty were all Hyksos (Hebrews)! No proof? How about ignored proof?
  
  There is an article by Jonathan Gray, titled In Search Of Pharaoh's Lost Army, which offers interesting (supposed) archeological evidence and conclusions concerning the Exodus. We suggest that you examine this document cautiously, since we are aware of the fact that Bible archeology (like secular archeology) is often inaccurate and untrustworthy."

  Click to expand...

  ^ This is simply pathetic.

12jtartar said:

Ingledsva,
When you have some reason for not believing something, whether true or not, it makes it almost impossible for you to learn truth. This is very sad, because any person who calls the Almighty God, Jehovah a lier, being on very precarious ground. I can tell by your posts that you are, just as the Bible says, at Psalms 10:3,4. Only the foolish says that there is no God, Psalms 14:1, 53:1.

Click to expand...

Ingledsva said:

Did you even bother to read what was written up there? Or the Biblical Archaeology link that debunked all of that?

Don't you think Biblical Archaeology Magazine, and site, - would want to PROVE Exodus? Well they can't. And since they have integrity, tell it the way it is. These have been debunked.

I studied archaeology, and am - as I have said many times, - interested in ancient people, their movements, their religions, and the spread of language and the impact on philosophy, law, etc.

In other words I looked into the Exodus material. There IS NO credible archaeology. And there are no corroborating writings.

You can't wish it into being.

*

Click to expand...

Hockeycowboy said:

Do you realize what "biblearcheology" debunked? It was the film (movie), made by Jacobovici!

Click to expand...

12jtartar said:

Ingledsva,
When you have some reason for not believing something, whether true or not, it makes it almost impossible for you to learn truth. This is very sad, because any person who calls the Almighty God, Jehovah a lier, being on very precarious ground. I can tell by your posts that you are, just as the Bible says, at Psalms 10:3,4. Only the foolish says that there is no God, Psalms 14:1, 53:1.

Click to expand...