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The Jewish Jehovah's Witness.

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The mezuzah is an "ornament" עדי. -----Two letters in its scroll are enlarged, the ayin ע and the dalet ד. ---Together they spell "witness" עד.
^ One more pathetic attempt to misappropriate a bit of Judaism and distort and profane it in the name of Jesus.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
^ One more pathetic attempt to misappropriate a bit of Judaism and distort and profane it in the name of Jesus.
We can also add pictures of old Jewish phylactery wearing men that have been mustered up for the fight for Jesus.

Nothing says "I'm legitimate" as much as suggesting one's views are related to authentic views of a different religion.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
I believe that God wants worship from the heart, guided by conscience, rather than performance based on a strict code.

I think Deeje has me on ignore, but I would like any other JW to comment on this statement she made. Do JW's actually believe what she claims? If this is true, why all the fuss about going door to door, using the name Jehovah, not joining the military, not voting, not wearing tight clothing, not having beards (only beard fractions - a mustache), not getting an education and so on, and so on, and so on? All the 8,000,000 JW's hope is based on performance and works. They have to adhere to all 1700 rules and laws put in place by the GB. Only the 144,000 are guaranteed a place right? The rest of the JW's have to work for a "chance" at a spot on earth?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think Deeje has me on ignore, but I would like any other JW to comment on this statement she made. Do JW's actually believe what she claims? If this is true, why all the fuss about going door to door, using the name Jehovah, not joining the military, not voting, not wearing tight clothing, not having beards (only beard fractions - a mustache), not getting an education and so on, and so on, and so on? All the 8,000,000 JW's hope is based on performance and works. They have to adhere to all 1700 rules and laws put in place by the GB. Only the 144,000 are guaranteed a place right? The rest of the JW's have to work for a "chance" at a spot on earth?

I don't have anyone on ignore djhw.

A comment like this is made out of pure ignorance. When I said "I believe that God wants worship from the heart, guided by conscience, rather than performance based on a strict code" I was speaking about written laws that are followed mindlessly as a performance, rather than as something we uphold with our hearts as pleasing to our heavenly Father.
God has laws that he expects us to abide by, but more importantly he wants us to understand the principle upon which his laws are based and align our thoughts with his thoughts.

Let's examine the things you mentioned....and the scriptures we use to back them up.

"going door to door"...this was the method used by the apostles so that no one was missed in the life saving work of preaching the kingdom message.
"how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house," (Acts 20:20 ESV. Acts 5:42; Matt 24:14)
Teaching people "in their homes" was how the disciple making work was carried out in Jesus' day. It was not the only method, but one of the ways they sought out "worthy ones". (Matt 10:11-15)

"using the name Jehovah" Did not our Lord Jesus Christ pray in the Lord's Prayer..."Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name"?
Didn't he say in John 17:26, "I made known to them your name and I will make it known, that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them.”?

The use of God's name was obviously important to Jesus because of its meaning. No one else has a name like his, because there is no one like him....(regardless of how you pronounce it. Psalm 83:18 KJV)
Jehovah (YHWH, Yahweh) is the "Most High"....meaning that there is no one higher. Jesus called him "the only true God". (John 17:3)

Jehovah told Moses when giving him his divine name...."God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation." (Ex 3:15 Holman)

"not joining the military" Training to kill and maim other human beings is hardly following the teachings of Jesus Christ who said...."But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matt 5:44-48 NAB)

"not voting" Jesus told us to be no part of this world which he indicated was ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19) He also said that the ruler of this world had no power over him.
" I will not talk with you much longer, because the ruler of the world is coming. He has no power over Me" (John 14:30) "They don’t belong to this world, just as I don’t belong to this world." (John 17:16) If we don't belong to this world, then that includes its corrupt politics. If we support the devil's rulers, we support his rulership.

"not wearing tight clothing"
This has to do with modesty. "Also, the women are to dress themselves in modest clothing, with decency and good sense, not with elaborate hairstyles, gold, pearls, or expensive apparel, 10 but with good works, as is proper for women who affirm that they worship God." (1 Tim 2:9, 10)

"not having beards (only beard fractions - a mustache)"
This has to do with worldly styles. Facial hair and the fads that go with it are difficult to monitor. So its just simpler to make "modesty" also apply to men as to their dress and grooming as it would to women. If "elaborate hairstyles" are not recommended for women, then they shouldn't be for men either. Facial hair is no different. Some older people still see long beards as a sign of rebelliousness. We would not want to give the wrong impression. We don't belong to this world, so we do not imitate its extreme styles.

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of lifeis not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever." (1 John 2:15-17)

"not getting an education" There is no prohibition on education at all. It is a matter for the individual to decide. We again use the example of Jesus and the apostles....none of whom were educated in the accepted schools of higher learning. Jesus educated his apostles in the best education there was....Jehovah's Witnesses also have schools for education in the best career there is in this world....the ones that teach them how to be effective preachers and teachers of God's word in this time of the end.
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always,to the end of the age.” (Matt 28:19, 20)

A university degree or diploma doesn't mean much to God. Being preachers and teachers of God's word is the commission.....and it requires a specific kind of education with no thought of monetary gain in view.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
"going door to door"...this was the method used by the apostles so that no one was missed in the life saving work of preaching the kingdom message.
"how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house," (Acts 20:20 ESV. Acts 5:42; Matt 24:14)
Teaching people "in their homes" was how the disciple making work was carried out in Jesus' day. It was not the only method, but one of the ways they sought out "worthy ones". (Matt 10:11-15)

I don't disagree with doing the door to door ministry, what I disagree with is the fact that the JW's teach that every one is commanded to do it and if one does not do it, they are not serving Jesus. Not everyone is called to preach or teach. The gentleman I was meeting with has been a JW since 1986, that's 30 years, and he could quote more WT literature than Scripture. How can one teach and preach God's Word if one does not know it?


"using the name Jehovah" Did not our Lord Jesus Christ pray in the Lord's Prayer..."Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name"?
Didn't he say in John 17:26, "I made known to them your name and I will make it known, that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them.”?

The use of God's name was obviously important to Jesus because of its meaning. No one else has a name like his, because there is no one like him....(regardless of how you pronounce it. Psalm 83:18 KJV)
Jehovah (YHWH, Yahweh) is the "Most High"....meaning that there is no one higher. Jesus called him "the only true God". (John 17:3)

Jehovah told Moses when giving him his divine name...."God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation." (Ex 3:15 Holman)

If God's name was so obviously important to Jesus, why did He never use/mention that Name? The Lord's Prayer (as you call it) would have been the perfect time to use it, wouldn't it?

From the Insight book:
*** it-2 p. 464 Name ***
A word or phrase that constitutes a distinctive designation of a person, place, animal, plant, or other object. “Name” can mean a person’s reputation or the person himself.

I believe that Jesus made God's reputation known. He always talked about how good and loving the Father is, but never mentioned His personal name. Everyone, even God Himself always described how Holy, powerful, merciful, mighty, loving and wonderful God was. They were making His reputation know.


"not voting" Jesus told us to be no part of this world which he indicated was ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19) He also said that the ruler of this world had no power over him.
" I will not talk with you much longer, because the ruler of the world is coming. He has no power over Me" (John 14:30) "They don’t belong to this world, just as I don’t belong to this world." (John 17:16) If we don't belong to this world, then that includes its corrupt politics. If we support the devil's rulers, we support his rulership.

So, you believe you can pick and choose what parts of the world you can be part of? Why just voting and government? What about buying a car, aren't you supporting the world of the greedy auto industry? What about buying gas for the car you own, aren't you supporting the evil and greedy oil industry? You can not live in this world without being "part" of this world, how does that make sense? Jesus said "we are not "OF" this world." We are ambassadors of the Kingdom in this world, we are not "OF" this world. We can not live in this world and not be part of it. JW's choose not to vote, that doesn't make you no part of the world, because that's not the totality of the world, that just means JW's don't care who gets elected to government positions.



"not having beards (only beard fractions - a mustache)" This has to do with worldly styles. Facial hair and the fads that go with it are difficult to monitor. So its just simpler to make "modesty" also apply to men as to their dress and grooming as it would to women. If "elaborate hairstyles" are not recommended for women, then they shouldn't be for men either. Facial hair is no different. Some older people still see long beards as a sign of rebelliousness. We would not want to give the wrong impression. We don't belong to this world, so we do not imitate its extreme styles.

This makes no sense at all. It doesn't matter how you wear your hair, it is all worldly styles. So profiling is ok in JW's?

This is what Jesus said,

Mat 5:14-16 (ESVST) 14 " You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

It doesn't matter what a person looks like. If their light shines, they will be known.


"not getting an education" There is no prohibition on education at all. It is a matter for the individual to decide. We again use the example of Jesus and the apostles....none of whom were educated in the accepted schools of higher learning. Jesus educated his apostles in the best education there was....Jehovah's Witnesses also have schools for education in the best career there is in this world....the ones that teach them how to be effective preachers and teachers of God's word in this time of the end.
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always,to the end of the age.” (Matt 28:19, 20)

A university degree or diploma doesn't mean much to God. Being preachers and teachers of God's word is the commission.....and it requires a specific kind of education with no thought of monetary gain in view.

Really? You can tell that to people that know nothing of the JW's, but it won't go far on this forum.

I will be more than happy to supply you with all the articles on "education" found in the WT literature.


Here are a couple,

*** w08 4/15 p. 4 par. 10 Repudiate “Valueless Things” ***
10 What, though, of higher education, received in a college or a university? This is widely viewed as vital to success. Yet, many who pursue such education end up with their minds filled with harmful propaganda. Such education wastes valuable youthful years that could best be used in Jehovah’s service. (Eccl. 12:1) Perhaps it is not surprising that in lands where many have received such an education, belief in God is at an all-time low. Rather than looking to the advanced educational systems of this world for security, a Christian trusts in Jehovah.—Prov. 3:5.

*** w89 9/15 p. 23 par. 13 Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead ***
13 In the world, there is a tendency to reject leadership. As one lecturer said: “The rising education level has improved the talent pool such that followers have become so critical that they are almost impossible to lead.” But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God’s organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us. For instance, only those meeting Scriptural requirements are appointed as elders. (1 Timothy 3:1-7) They are trained to be kind, loving, and helpful, yet firm in upholding Jehovah’s righteous standards. The elders adhere to Scriptural truth, ‘holding firmly to the faithful word, that they may be able to exhort by healthful teaching.’ (Titus 1:5-9) Of course, we should not magnify their human imperfections, for all of us are imperfect. (1 Kings 8:46; Romans 5:12) Instead of feeling frustrated by their limitations and treating their counsel lightly, let us appreciate and accept the Bible-based direction of the elders as coming from God.

The above statement is the honest reason the GB doesn't want it's members to have an education. People with an education "are almost impossible to control"! A person with a mind and can think for themselves are less likely to succumb to mind control.

Not everyone's meant to teach and preach,

1Co 12:27-30 (ESVST) 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?


 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Hi. Just to hear a view.

If God is one, why would he require a name?

He only needed a name when man invented other gods from whom he needed to be differentiated. Other gods had names so the true God revealed his own name....a name that no other god possesses because no one else could live up to the meaning of it. Other gods were figments of human imagination implanted by the devil, and designed to take worship away from "the only true God", Yahweh. (Matt 17:3)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I don't disagree with doing the door to door ministry, what I disagree with is the fact that the JW's teach that every one is commanded to do it and if one does not do it, they are not serving Jesus. Not everyone is called to preach or teach.

"For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.
11 For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”
(Rom 10:9-15)

To whom was Paul speaking?

The gentleman I was meeting with has been a JW since 1986, that's 30 years, and he could quote more WT literature than Scripture. How can one teach and preach God's Word if one does not know it?

It might be useful to note that Watchtower literature is for Bible study. They quotes more scripture than any personal opinions.
Basing your own opinion on the actions of one man is a bit ridiculous. We are all individuals, with skills and talents in our own right. Some are very studious, others not so. But we all receive the same education. Not all are gifted teachers or preachers, but the literature speaks for all of us....one message from one united global brotherhood.

If God's name was so obviously important to Jesus, why did He never use/mention that Name? The Lord's Prayer (as you call it) would have been the perfect time to use it, wouldn't it?

From the Insight book:
*** it-2 p. 464 Name ***
A word or phrase that constitutes a distinctive designation of a person, place, animal, plant, or other object. “Name” can mean a person’s reputation or the person himself.

I believe that Jesus made God's reputation known. He always talked about how good and loving the Father is, but never mentioned His personal name. Everyone, even God Himself always described how Holy, powerful, merciful, mighty, loving and wonderful God was. They were making His reputation know.

"For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” Here Paul was quoting from Joel 2:32 where the tetragrammaton appeared. Clearly calling on the name of Jehovah is vital for salvation. As Paul said, "how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard?

So, you believe you can pick and choose what parts of the world you can be part of? Why just voting and government? What about buying a car, aren't you supporting the world of the greedy auto industry? What about buying gas for the car you own, aren't you supporting the evil and greedy oil industry? You can not live in this world without being "part" of this world, how does that make sense? Jesus said "we are not "OF" this world." We are ambassadors of the Kingdom in this world, we are not "OF" this world. We can not live in this world and not be part of it. JW's choose not to vote, that doesn't make you no part of the world, because that's not the totality of the world, that just means JW's don't care who gets elected to government positions.

Since the political "world" has an unseen manipulator, it is this "part of the world" that we avoid. When Jesus was tempted after his baptism, the devil offered him "all the kingdoms of the world and their glory" saying that they "had been delivered to him".....Jesus did not dispute his 'ownership' of all these worldly kingdoms, nor did he deny that world rulership was his to give...in fact he even called satan the "ruler of this world". (John 14:30) Paul also called him "the god of this world" (2 Cor 4:3, 4)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It doesn't matter how you wear your hair, it is all worldly styles. So profiling is ok in JW's?

This is what Jesus said,

Mat 5:14-16 (ESVST) 14 " You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

It doesn't matter what a person looks like. If their light shines, they will be known.

If it doesn't matter what a person looks like, then why does the Bible recommend "modest well arranged dress"?
Why does the corporate world still wear suits and ties? Company reps are not free to dress as they please. If you represent a company the CEO will tell you what your dress requirements are.

Our dress and grooming speaks a lot about about what kind of person we are. How seriously would you take someone coming to your door preaching, if they were unkempt and dressed in a slovenly manner? What if they were covered in tattoos and had a weird hairstyle? If you are representing Jesus to others, don't you owe it to him not to repel people by your personal taste? Christianity is about sacrifice, not freedom of expression, regardless of the cost. (Matt 18:6)

Really? You can tell that to people that know nothing of the JW's, but it won't go far on this forum

Neither the GB or the elders are spiritual policemen. They are shepherds of one flock who all aspire to maintain one standard. Higher education results in no spiritual value. It contributes in no way to the commission we have to be preachers and teachers. We have the best education system in the world.....one that trains us to impart the truth of God's word to hungry souls. We have little interest in attaining the world's material goals, but rather to practice contentment with what we already have. I don't know too many unhappy JW's because of this. "Striving after the wind" is the continual chasing after wealth and what money can buy.

Solomon said it well.....
Eccl 1:14-18:
"I saw all the works that were done under the sun, and, look! everything was vanity and a striving after wind.
15 That which is made crooked cannot be made straight, and that which is wanting cannot possibly be counted. 16 I, even I, spoke with my heart, saying: “Look! I myself have greatly increased in wisdom more than anyone that happened to be before me in Jerusalem, and my own heart saw a great deal of wisdom and knowledge.” 17 And I proceeded to give my heart to knowing wisdom and to knowing madness, and I have come to know folly, that this too is a striving after wind. 18 For in the abundance of wisdom there is an abundance of vexation, so that he that increases knowledge increases pain."


I will be more than happy to supply you with all the articles on "education" found in the WT literature.
Here are a couple,

*** w08 4/15 p. 4 par. 10 Repudiate “Valueless Things” ***
10 What, though, of higher education, received in a college or a university? This is widely viewed as vital to success. Yet, many who pursue such education end up with their minds filled with harmful propaganda. Such education wastes valuable youthful years that could best be used in Jehovah’s service. (Eccl. 12:1) Perhaps it is not surprising that in lands where many have received such an education, belief in God is at an all-time low. Rather than looking to the advanced educational systems of this world for security, a Christian trusts in Jehovah.—Prov. 3:5.

*** w89 9/15 p. 23 par. 13 Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead ***
13 In the world, there is a tendency to reject leadership. As one lecturer said: “The rising education level has improved the talent pool such that followers have become so critical that they are almost impossible to lead.” But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God’s organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us. For instance, only those meeting Scriptural requirements are appointed as elders. (1 Timothy 3:1-7) They are trained to be kind, loving, and helpful, yet firm in upholding Jehovah’s righteous standards. The elders adhere to Scriptural truth, ‘holding firmly to the faithful word, that they may be able to exhort by healthful teaching.’ (Titus 1:5-9) Of course, we should not magnify their human imperfections, for all of us are imperfect. (1 Kings 8:46; Romans 5:12) Instead of feeling frustrated by their limitations and treating their counsel lightly, let us appreciate and accept the Bible-based direction of the elders as coming from God.

The above statement is the honest reason the GB doesn't want it's members to have an education. People with an education "are almost impossible to control"! A person with a mind and can think for themselves are less likely to succumb to mind control.

You read only what you want to see. A spirit of independence is what caused Adam and his wife to come to grief in the first place. Instead of following the lead of their Creator, they followed the lead of his adversary to serve self interest....to their eternal detriment.....we are "sheep" and we have "shepherds" for a reason. This is God's arrangement, so the sheep don't get to tell the shepherds what they want to do or where they want to go. They are led by God through those appointed to take the lead. The shepherds are there to keep the sheep from straying and from physical and spiritual danger.

Heb 13:17:
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

Are you suggesting that God's way doesn't suit you? Or that we are better off doing our own thing?

Not everyone's meant to teach and preach
1Co 12:27-30 (ESVST) 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

In the congregation, that was true. But the commission to preach was given to all. All of the first Christians were of one class...spirit anointed Christians who were chosen for a role in the kingdom.....that of rulership and priesthood. (Rev 20:6) All knew their place and all knew what they had to do in their assignments.
We are no longer seeing those gifts that identified Christ's anointed. These gifts were for a time and for a purpose, so once that purpose was served, the "traits" of a spiritual baby (1 Cor 13:11) were replaced with the more mature aspects of the kingdom.....the message that was to be taken by Christ's followers, searching for "worthy ones" in "all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" before Jesus brings this world to an accounting. (Matt 24:14, 28:19, 20, 10:11-15)

You know, that is one aspect that continues to bolster my faith. Because it was a command from Jesus, those who love him and want to do the will of the Father as he did, will voluntarily go and do what most people could never dream of doing. Jesus said he would back this work and he has. He has a virtual army of willing volunteers out preaching about his kingdom in practically every nation on earth...and what's more, they love doing it. :)
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
He only needed a name when man invented other gods from whom he needed to be differentiated. Other gods had names so the true God revealed his own name....a name that no other god possesses because no one else could live up to the meaning of it. Other gods were figments of human imagination implanted by the devil, and designed to take worship away from "the only true God", Yahweh. (Matt 17:3)

Matt 17:3 doesnt say that.

Any other verses you can show as evidence for your claim?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Matt 17:3 doesnt say that.

Any other verses you can show as evidence for your claim?

Sorry, it was John 17:3, which is Jesus' own acknowledgment that his Father is "the only true God" as opposed to the many that exist in false worship.

The apostle Paul also wrote...
1 Cor 8:5, 6:
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."

When Moses was given the assignment to free Israel from slavery in Egypt he said to God...
Ex 3:13:
Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What should I say to them?

God answered....
Ex 3:15:
“This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation."

If you look up Psalm 83:18 in the KJV you will see that "Jehovah" is described as "the Most High over all the earth" As the "Most High" that means that there is no one higher, though false gods are worshipped in equal esteem in the world.


He also said that those who "call on the name of Jehovah will be saved." (Rom 13:10) He was quoting Joel 2:32 where God's name appears in the original text.

Jehovah's name was connected to his people.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Sorry, it was John 17:3, which is Jesus' own acknowledgment that his Father is "the only true God" as opposed to the many that exist in false worship.

I understand your point. The thing is there is no YHWH in the new testament. There are only third party reference. I know that Yahweh is considered by the Jews as the God's personal name, but that is never mentioned in the Gospels or the other 23 or 25 books in the new testament.

But I do agree, that the Jews considered Yahweh as his personal name and nothing comes close to it, not Jesus or anyone for that matter.

The apostle Paul also wrote...
1 Cor 8:5, 6:
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."

Of course there is one God. All monotheistic religions believe that right?

When Moses was given the assignment to free Israel from slavery in Egypt he said to God...
Ex 3:13:
Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What should I say to them?

God answered....
Ex 3:15:
“This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation."

Elohe Yahweh. Studying the bible you will see that the 4 letter word YHWH is mentioned some 6828 times. It is always not mentioned as a name. If you read it in hebrew, especially the verse you quoted above 3:15 you cannot render it as a personal name. WHen you say "Elohe Yahweh Yisrael" it has to read "God the lord of Israel".

And there are many who use the verse in between that you did not quote 3:14 to say that God's name is "Yah". That also has a lot of authenticity (Though I dont believe it). That also says "Ehye asher ehye" or "Ego Eimi Ho On". Like saying I am who I am as if to connote that I dont need a name.

If you look up Psalm 83:18 in the KJV you will see that "Jehovah" is described as "the Most High over all the earth" As the "Most High" that means that there is no one higher, though false gods are worshipped in equal esteem in the world.

He also said that those who "call on the name of Jehovah will be saved." (Rom 13:10) He was quoting Joel 2:32 where God's name appears in the original text.

Jehovah's name was connected to his people.

Romans 13:10 does not say what you say.

Joel moreover reads call on YHWH be Shem or YHWH's name. That may also not mean that repeat the name YHWH or pronounce it, it actually means call on his name, like in the name of the queen. My countrys postal service was in the name of the queen untill a few decades ago, that does not mean the postman says the Queens name Elizabeth. I dont mean it derogatively, but as an example.

Deeje. I know that many people have worshipped various models and names of God. RIght now in Christianity there are those who worship Yahweh and there some who worship Yah or/and Jah. If God found it necessary to reveal his true personal name to distinguish between false God's and himself the there is a logical fallacy there. If he is the only God, he would not have a name. God would not name himself. Naming is done only to distinguish between yourself and another person. If there are non, you dont need a name. Your point will have weight if it was God himself saying it.

But I understand your point. YHWH first appears when Abraham in the 15th chapter utters it. So before God himself reveals his name personally in order to distinguish himself from other Gods or deities, it was Abraham who says it. And he says it as a matter of fact.

YHWH though definitely stands out because no one is referred to as YHWH. When moses was named or sent as GOd to the phareoh that was Elohim. I mean Moses was sent as Elohim. And its YHWH who sends him. Thus YHWH is definitely only referred to the divine God, the absolute, the eternal, the creator, the sustainer etc. When others are referred like moses its Elohim, with respect, royal plural, but is not God like YHWH but a representative of YHWH. This is, the beauty and the eloquence of the language.

Anyway Deeje, my tirade is over but I have one question.

If Gods name, I mean personal name is YHWH, why do you put a J into it? Do you understand. If its any other word its fine, but a personal name cannot be changed right? Your name might have a meaning or not, but YHWH certainly does. Why would you change it. Why not call him by his real name without changing it? Afterall, its God himself, not even a human name we change (Of course other than Jesus, Peter etc which is also kind of absurd but I dont mind).

Now if you name was Beautiful I cant call you BEETUFIL. Again, not being derogative.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
"For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.
11 For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”
(Rom 10:9-15)

To whom was Paul speaking?

Have you ever really read those verses? I mean, "honestly" read them, without the WT twist on them?

Rom 10:9 (ESVST) 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Verse 9 says, "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord", that means you have to say the word, the name of Jesus, not Jehovah and you will be saved.


Rom 10:10 (ESVST) 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Verse 10 says, "with the mouth one confesses (the "NAME" of Jesus) and is saved.

Rom 10:11-12 (ESVST) 11 For the Scripture says, " Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Verses 11 and 12 says (still talking about Jesus) "Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame" and, "for the same Lord is Lord of all (remember, we are to confess "JESUS" as Lord) bestowing His riches on all "WHO CALL ON HIM."

So, why do the JW's insert Jehovah in verse 13? If we confess Jesus as Lord and are saved, why is the name of Jehovah in verse 13?


And it says in Act 4:11-12,

Act 4:11-12 (ESVST) 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

If Rom 10:13 is true, then Act 4:12 is wrong, correct? It says there's "NO OTHER" name by which we must be saved. So, Rom 10:13 cannot say "whoever calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved".

If Rom 10:13 is true, the following verses would have been the perfect place to use the name of Jehovah.

Act 16:17-18 (ESVST) 17 She followed Paul and us, crying out, " These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation." 18 And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And it came out that very hour.


What about Phil 2:10?

Phi 2:9-11 (ESVST) 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isa 45:22-23 (ESVST) For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'

Oh no! Could this be proof that Jesus is God? It is enough for me!!
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Since the political "world" has an unseen manipulator, it is this "part of the world" that we avoid. When Jesus was tempted after his baptism, the devil offered him "all the kingdoms of the world and their glory" saying that they "had been delivered to him".....Jesus did not dispute his 'ownership' of all these worldly kingdoms, nor did he deny that world rulership was his to give...in fact he even called satan the "ruler of this world". (John 14:30) Paul also called him "the god of this world" (2 Cor 4:3, 4)

You're partly correct, satan "did" have authority over the world, for a while. What did Jesus say in Mat 28:18?

Mat 28:16-18 (ESVST) 16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Does "ALL" authority mean just some? Does it mean all except for what satan has? Does it mean something like Col 1:16 in the NWT, "16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible", "all other authority" has been given to me?
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
You read only what you want to see. A spirit of independence is what caused Adam and his wife to come to grief in the first place. Instead of following the lead of their Creator, they followed the lead of his adversary to serve self interest....to their eternal detriment.....we are "sheep" and we have "shepherds" for a reason. This is God's arrangement, so the sheep don't get to tell the shepherds what they want to do or where they want to go. They are led by God through those appointed to take the lead. The shepherds are there to keep the sheep from straying and from physical and spiritual danger.

Heb 13:17:
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

Are you suggesting that God's way doesn't suit you? Or that we are better off doing our own thing?

Jesus gave us one commandant, to love others as He loved us. The JW's have over 1,700 rules and regulations that govern your org.
 
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