Is Jesus God?

moorea944 · Mar 5, 2016

Sultan Of Swing said:
Because the Bible does say Jesus is God. John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I am", invoking the very name of God, and even more explicitly Romans 9:5 "To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen." These are just a couple of examples.

Because the Bible does say Jesus is God.

Not once does scripture tell us that.

John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I am", invoking the very name of God,

Before Abraham was I am, is not saying the Jesus is God or pre-existed. He is telling them that he was in the plans of God right from the beginning. People knew about a coming Messiah even with Adam and Eve. He was preached to people even back then. That is why he is saying that. Very simple language here. Jesus DOES carry the "name" of God too. Just as with us, we can "carry" or "bear" God's name in us.

and even more explicitly Romans 9:5 "To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen." These are just a couple of examples.

V.5 Trinitarians like to point to this verse as proof that Jesus is God.

We must remember that there is no punctuation in Greek, and so different versions will have different punctuation. Look at the KJV: …the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. And the ESV: …is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. The KJV leaves room to separate Jesus from God, but the ESV does not.
However, the RSV clearly separates Jesus from His Father: To them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.

But, no version poses any problem if we understand God-manifestation.

It is clear that the Bible teaches Yahweh is over Christ (1Cor 11:3). Jesus, Himself, states that he cannot act without the power of the Father (John 5:19,30). Jesus has been given all power, but when His role is completed, He (and His immortalised brethren) will yield to Yahweh and He will be manifested in all (1Cor 15:24-28).
In the Old Testament, those acting in the Name of God were called God (called by His Name). For example, the angels who appeared to Abraham were called Yahweh (Gen 18:1,2). And so, it should not be surprising that Jesus, who acted in the Name of His Father, should not be called God. In fact, with that very understanding, Thomas called Him God (John 20:26-28).

And so, if we understand the nature and role of Jesus; His relationship with His Father; the principle of God-manifestation, then we will not be confused with erroneous doctrines such as that of the Trinity.

On the other hand, "God over all", if accepted as a correct rendering (and punctuation), testifies that Jesus is the fullest manifestation of Almighty God -- the express image of the Father's person in human flesh (cp Col 1:15; Heb 1:2; Phil 2:9). Compare the ideas in Matt 23:39; Zech 14:9: Jesus of Nazareth is the one who comes in the "name" of the Lord. Also compare Psa 45:6,7(cited in Heb 1:8,9): Jesus is addressed as "God", but only because he has been "blessed" by his God forever. Compare also Psa 45:2, which has the very phrase of Romans 9:5: "God has blessed you forever."

Notaclue · Mar 5, 2016

firedragon said:
Are you speaking from your own point of view or from the scriptural point view.

Also, when you say spirit of God was created in the beginning, do you mean the holy spirit or God himself?

Whith what evidence do you say "Jesus Christ, the only Son of God"?

Also, when you say spirit of God was created in the beginning, do you mean the holy spirit or God himself?

Gen.1:1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

In the Beginning God created, Heaven, earth, deep, face 'of' the deep, darkness, Spirit 'of' God, waters and face 'of' the waters. Light.

All created in the first day. No, God did not create himself.

Is.11:2. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Spirit "of the" Lord is 'one' of 'seven'.

Rev.1:4. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the "seven Spirits" which are before*(in the eyes of) his throne; 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

*
enópios: in sight of, before
Original Word: ἐνώπιον
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: enópios
Phonetic Spelling: (en-o'-pee-on)
Short Definition: before the face of, in the presence of
Definition: before the face of, in the presence of, in the eyes of.
HELPS Word-studies
1799 enṓpion – literally, "in the eye (of the throne)," or God or Lamb.

– literally, "in the eye (of the throne),"

This is the Key to the Revealing of the what is what was and what is to come.

(Quote)
With what evidence do you say "Jesus Christ, the only Son of God.

I will answer this later.

Peace to you.

firedragon · Mar 5, 2016

Notaclue said:
Gen.1:1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

In the Beginning God created, Heaven, earth, deep, face 'of' the deep, darkness, Spirit 'of' God, waters and face 'of' the waters. Light.

All created in the first day. No, God did not create himself.

I understand what you say. But there is no reference to say God created the spirit on the first day. Or in the beginning. It only says that the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. In that case, the spirit was already there (If you wanna separate the spirit from the God, or pneuma in the septuagint).

Notaclue said:
Rev.1:4. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the "seven Spirits" which are before*(in the eyes of) his throne; 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

*
enópios: in sight of, before
Original Word: ἐνώπιον
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: enópios
Phonetic Spelling: (en-o'-pee-on)
Short Definition: before the face of, in the presence of
Definition: before the face of, in the presence of, in the eyes of.
HELPS Word-studies
1799 enṓpion – literally, "in the eye (of the throne)," or God or Lamb.

– literally, "in the eye (of the throne),"

This is the Key to the Revealing of the what is what was and what is to come.

My question was "When you say spirit in the beginning, was it the Holy spirit (As in the second person in the trinity)".

Not pertaining to the question, let me say this, Ecclesia does not mean church. It means a gathering or council. Church was derived from Kuriokos or belonging to the Lord. In this century it is a widely known fact that Ecclesia was translated wrongly as church. Ecclesia was there before the Gospels, while the church was born definitely after it, I hope thats logical.

But that is irrelevant I agree. Just stating since you quoted the verse.

Again, do you mean to say it was another spirit. The spirit of God. Not the holy spirit in the trinity?
And what do you believe are the seven spirits?

Hockeycowboy · Mar 6, 2016

moorea944 said:
I can never understand why some people believe that Jesus is both God and man at the same time, even though scripture doesnt say it. Why cant we just believe that he is the Son of God? The bible says that one... How can you be immortal and mortal at the same time? If... Jesus is God, co-equal, co-everything, why then role play this father and son thing.... dont get it... If they were both God, why cant the bible say it? Why was Mary told her son would be the "Son of God"? Why was David told that someone from him would restore his throne at a later date? Why was Moses told that someone like him would "raise up" (not descend) from the people. In the NT, God is the God and Father of Jesus. But anyhow......

For sure! Believing the trinity only makes the Bible sound contradictory, ambiguous and confusing. I mean, first, Jesus is "with God," then he is God, but then, "no man has seen God at any time".....what?! Plus, if he is God, who was he praying to, and why? Why would he say, "Let not my will, but yours, be done."? Why did he cry out, "My God, why have You forsaken me?"? If he is God, why would he have a God? Who resurrected him? And on and on!

Or, just maybe, 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 is right on the money!

Notaclue · Mar 6, 2016

Quote)
With what evidence do you say "Jesus Christ, the only Son of God.

I will answer this later.

Rom.12:4. For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;

5so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1Cor.12:12. For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

1Cor.10:14. Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.

Jn.6:52. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.54Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.56Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides "in me", and I in him.57As the living Father sent me, and I live because(through) of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because(through) of me.

Eph.1:22. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1Cor.11:3. But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

18And he is the 'head' of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Matt.13:36. Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall "gather out of his kingdom" all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the "kingdom of their Father". Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Kingdom of the Son has tares in it.........Kingdom of the Father has no tares in it.

Two Kingdoms.

1Cor.15:20. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Rev.21:9. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lambs wife.

Rev.21:22. And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and 'its lamp is the Lamb'.

The Lamp is the Lamb.

Rev.22:1. Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5And night will be no more. They will "need no light of lamp" or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

Need no light of the Lamb.

1Jn.1:5. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God is light

for the Lord God will be their light

1Cor.15:28. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

1Jn.4:15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Peace.

firedragon · Mar 6, 2016

Notaclue said:
Quote)
With what evidence do you say "Jesus Christ, the only Son of God.

I will answer this later.

Rom.12:4. For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;

5so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1Cor.12:12. For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

1Cor.10:14. Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.

Jn.6:52. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.54Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.56Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides "in me", and I in him.57As the living Father sent me, and I live because(through) of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because(through) of me.

Eph.1:22. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1Cor.11:3. But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

18And he is the 'head' of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Matt.13:36. Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall "gather out of his kingdom" all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the "kingdom of their Father". Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Kingdom of the Son has tares in it.........Kingdom of the Father has no tares in it.

Two Kingdoms.

1Cor.15:20. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Rev.21:9. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lambs wife.

Rev.21:22. And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and 'its lamp is the Lamb'.

The Lamp is the Lamb.

Rev.22:1. Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5And night will be no more. They will "need no light of lamp" or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

Need no light of the Lamb.

1Jn.1:5. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God is light

for the Lord God will be their light

1Cor.15:28. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

1Jn.4:15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Peace.

Peace.

Yoshua · Mar 7, 2016

moorea944 said:
Explaining these two verses is quite easy. Most trinitarians make the word "Word" Jesus and nothing else, because in scripture it tells us that Jesus IS the word. But... in this verse it is much more. When you look it up in Greek, it is "logos". Logos means someone's plans, thoughts or reasons. And yes, Jesus is part of that. In the beginning was the logos or God's plans. And then (verse 14) His plans became flesh. Very simple language. It is NOT saying that Jesus is God. Or he pre-existed.

Hi Moorea,

Yes, I agree that Logos is the reason for Greek and Hebrew for wisdom. Let us further check it out if this will fit with the context.

John 1:1-18
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
In the beginning was the Reason, and the Reason was with God, and the Reason was God.

How can it be that the Reason is theos? Therefore that would mean that the Reason or message is God. John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message.

2. He was in the beginning with God.
Who was with God in the beginning? a Reason or the person or both? I believe the context not only give emphasis to reason but also the person.
3. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Who is Him? This is obviously referring to Jesus Christ.

5. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Thanks

Yoshua · Mar 7, 2016

firedragon said:
I explained what this "Worship" is. Its not really worship.

Also, again, I dont worship one person because others did. Especially one who didnt claim to be God.

And I did not talk of forgeries. Maybe you referred to another person brother. (BTW, Mark is my favourite Gospel)

Hi firedragon,

Yes, I understand and I don't say that obeisance is wrong since the term worship is not limited to obeisance. What I'm pointing at is the context itself and not what others did. Take a look again with these scriptures.

Matt. 2:11 “And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother and they fell down and worshiped Him"

Matt. 28:9 "And they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him"

If you would notice with the text that the Magi were already down and worshiped Him.

Phil 2:9-10
9. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,

How much more if the name of Jesus should every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven, on earth and under the earth.

firedragon said:
Do you know what Jesus vehemently claimed to be over and over? A Son of Man.

Yes, I believe Jesus is the Son of Man and the Son of God.

Matt. 20:28, Matt. 16:16 and Mark 14:62 quoted Jesus as the Son of Man and the Son of God same the book of John quoted Him as the Son of God in

28. just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

16. And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

62. And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."

Mark 5:6-7
6. And seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed down before Him;
7. and crying out with a loud voice, he said, "What do I have to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!"

Even the unclean spirit knows Jesus is the Son of God.

Thanks

Yoshua · Mar 7, 2016

moorea944 said:
I can never understand why some people believe that Jesus is both God and man at the same time, even though scripture doesnt say it. Why cant we just believe that he is the Son of God? The bible says that one... How can you be immortal and mortal at the same time? If... Jesus is God, co-equal, co-everything, why then role play this father and son thing.... dont get it... If they were both God, why cant the bible say it? Why was Mary told her son would be the "Son of God"? Why was David told that someone from him would restore his throne at a later date? Why was Moses told that someone like him would "raise up" (not descend) from the people. In the NT, God is the God and Father of Jesus. But anyhow......

Hi Moorea,

It is because the Scripture repeatedly quoted Jesus is the Son of Man. To further explain this, let us see Philippians 2.

5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Jesus did not regard equality with God. If Jesus is not God, why He should not regard equality with God?

7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
If Jesus is not God, why He should emptied Himself for what purpose?
If Jesus is not God, why He should take in the form of a servant like us (human)?

8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Why Jesus should be humbled Himself for what? Therefore, God Himself existed in the form of God (immortal), in the person of Jesus (mortal). Moorea, this is why God exists in the person (role) of Jesus Christ.

Thanks

Yoshua · Mar 7, 2016

Hockeycowboy said:
For sure! Believing the trinity only makes the Bible sound contradictory, ambiguous and confusing. I mean, first, Jesus is "with God," then he is God, but then, "no man has seen God at any time".....what?! Plus, if he is God, who was he praying to, and why? Why would he say, "Let not my will, but yours, be done."? Why did he cry out, "My God, why have You forsaken me?"? If he is God, why would he have a God? Who resurrected him? And on and on!

Or, just maybe, 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 is right on the money!

Hi Hockeycowboy,

This is why the trinitarian doctrine is consistent with the Scriptures. It is not the word "trinity" but how God exists in the person of Jesus Christ. The reason why you questioned 'Jesus is with God, no man has seen God, who is He praying to and etc...' is because the doctrine of trinity is right and consistent in context. If you believed that Jesus is only a man and not God, or He is only a Mighty God, that would really contradicted the whole Scriptures. I believed that Scriptures should be consistent with other scriptures and should not be contradicted from one another.

Can you start with one question as specified above? please start with one question first.

Thanks

firedragon · Mar 7, 2016

Yoshua said:
Hi firedragon,

Yes, I understand and I don't say that obeisance is wrong since the term worship is not limited to obeisance. What I'm pointing at is the context itself and not what others did. Take a look again with these scriptures.

Matt. 2:11 “And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother and they fell down and worshiped Him"

Matt. 28:9 "And they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him"

If you would notice with the text that the Magi were already down and worshiped Him.

Phil 2:9-10
9. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,

How much more if the name of Jesus should every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven, on earth and under the earth.

Yes, I believe Jesus is the Son of Man and the Son of God.

Matt. 20:28, Matt. 16:16 and Mark 14:62 quoted Jesus as the Son of Man and the Son of God same the book of John quoted Him as the Son of God in

28. just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

16. And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

62. And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."

Mark 5:6-7
6. And seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed down before Him;
7. and crying out with a loud voice, he said, "What do I have to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!"

Even the unclean spirit knows Jesus is the Son of God.

Thanks

Moses did the same to his father in law, worship. Does that make him God?

And do you also agree then that Ephraim is Jesus's older brother. And in this case, it is not John or Mark saying he is the son, it is God himself.

moorea944 · Mar 7, 2016

Yoshua said:
Hi Moorea,

Yes, I agree that Logos is the reason for Greek and Hebrew for wisdom. Let us further check it out if this will fit with the context.

John 1:1-18
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
In the beginning was the Reason, and the Reason was with God, and the Reason was God.

How can it be that the Reason is theos? Therefore that would mean that the Reason or message is God. John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message.

2. He was in the beginning with God.
Who was with God in the beginning? a Reason or the person or both? I believe the context not only give emphasis to reason but also the person.
3. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Who is Him? This is obviously referring to Jesus Christ.

5. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Thanks

How can it be that the Reason is theos? Therefore that would mean that the Reason or message is God. John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message.

No, not at all. The "word" is not theos, it is logos. I really dont know why your putting theos with logos. completely different!!
The first few verses is about God, then in 14 it is about Jesus.

2. He was in the beginning with God.
Who was with God in the beginning? a Reason or the person or both? I believe the context not only give emphasis to reason but also the person.

Again, not at all. "He" is the wrong or bad translation. It is not in most bibles, I think it is in ESV. But that is wrong. The angels were the only ones with God in the beginning, not Jesus. He was not born yet. IF, Jesus did pre-exist, he would have just come down from heaven as he is, and not have to role play this father and son thing. It's almost degrading to him if that really did happen. Someone who is co-equal with someone else and now he's a son? Doesnt make sense.

Let us make man in our image and likeness.... Is God and the angels, not God and Jesus.

firedragon · Mar 7, 2016

moorea944 said:
Let us make man in our image and likeness.... Is God and the angels, not God and Jesus.

Maybe not my place to say this.

Bro, Cmon. Let us is not God and angels or Jesus or anything. Thats pluralis majestatis.

Please dont take offense my brother, but I sincerely thought that anyone discussing the bible in depth should have passed this elementary LKG.

moorea944 · Mar 7, 2016

Yoshua said:
Hi Moorea,

It is because the Scripture repeatedly quoted Jesus is the Son of Man. To further explain this, let us see Philippians 2.

5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Jesus did not regard equality with God. If Jesus is not God, why He should not regard equality with God?

7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
If Jesus is not God, why He should emptied Himself for what purpose?
If Jesus is not God, why He should take in the form of a servant like us (human)?

8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Why Jesus should be humbled Himself for what? Therefore, God Himself existed in the form of God (immortal), in the person of Jesus (mortal). Moorea, this is why God exists in the person (role) of Jesus Christ.

Thanks

It is because the Scripture repeatedly quoted Jesus is the Son of Man.

I totally agree with you that Jesus is the son of man.

Jesus did not regard equality with God. If Jesus is not God, why He should not regard equality with God?

That's what the Jew's thought and Paul told them that they were wrong in the next verse that you didnt put in....
"But made himself of no reputation," Paul told them that he didn't do that!! He was just a humble servant of God his Father. He was just like them in everyway. Esp, nature. Jesus could have sinned if he wanted to, but he chose not to. He was like us. There were two wills, Jesus's and God's. Jesus chose to do his Father's will.

If Jesus is not God, why He should emptied Himself for what purpose?

Emptied himself. What does that mean for you? What was he making himself empty of ?

If Jesus is not God, why He should take in the form of a servant like us (human)?

.

Very simple. Being a servant, humbling himself. Showing us how to be. But I think you look at that and Jesus is "changing" into something else, like a servant, from a God. Look at other verses in scripture that define our Lord. He showed us how to be. We make ourselves separate from the world and be like him.

Why Jesus should be humbled Himself for what? Therefore, God Himself existed in the form of God (immortal), in the person of Jesus (mortal). Moorea, this is why God exists in the person (role) of Jesus Christ.

God himself existed in a form of God doesnt really make sense. He IS God. Our creator. He manifests Himself in people too. Esp, His son. All through scripture, it tells us that God worked through His son.

Also, look at verse 11 "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Everything is to the glory of the father..... not Jesus.

Nothing in those verses tell us that Jesus is actually God. Jesus is in the form of God as in mind and spirit. Jesus manifested God's charator perfectly! God was in his son reconsciling the world until his self. God spirit is also in us too. We also try to be like our God, but we fail.

moorea944 · Mar 7, 2016

firedragon said:
Maybe not my place to say this.

Bro, Cmon. Let us is not God and angels or Jesus or anything. Thats pluralis majestatis.

Please dont take offense my brother, but I sincerely thought that anyone discussing the bible in depth should have passed this elementary LKG.

Maybe not my place to say this.
Bro, Cmon. Let us is not God and angels or Jesus or anything. Thats pluralis majestatis.
Please dont take offense my brother, but I sincerely thought that anyone discussing the bible in depth should have passed this elementary LKG.

No offense taken. But I'll tell you why I think that....

Angels were here at creation helping God. OT says that the angels are the fingers of God. In Hebrew "God" is Elohim, which is plural for Eloah. Elohim is God manifest in a multitude, it can also be rendered as "Mighty Ones". Angels are also called Elohim all through the bible too. "Jesus was made lower than the angels". In Hebrew is it, Jesus was make lower than the Elohim. Man can also be called Elohim too. God working through people. The jugdes were called Elohim because they were the ones who brought the word of God to the people. Same as the Levitical preisthood.

And the God (Elohim) said, Let us make........

If it is not angels or Jesus, who do you think it would be?
God can be, El, Eloah, or Elohim. GOD is Yahweh Himself.

Hockeycowboy · Mar 7, 2016

Yoshua said:
Hi Hockeycowboy,

This is why the trinitarian doctrine is consistent with the Scriptures. It is not the word "trinity" but how God exists in the person of Jesus Christ. The reason why you questioned 'Jesus is with God, no man has seen God, who is He praying to and etc...' is because the doctrine of trinity is right and consistent in context. If you believed that Jesus is only a man and not God, or He is only a Mighty God, that would really contradicted the whole Scriptures. I believed that Scriptures should be consistent with other scriptures and should not be contradicted from one another.

Can you start with one question as specified above? please start with one question first.

Thanks

Hello, Yoshua. Hope you are doing well.

There are several questions that I asked....feel free to pick one. Here they are again:
"First, Jesus is "with God," then he is God, but then, "no man has seen God at any time".....what?! Plus, if he is God, who was he praying to, and why? Why would he say, "Let not my will, but yours, be done."? Why did he cry out, "My God, why have You forsaken me?"? If he is God, why would he have a God?"

Really, though, you cannot answer these, in justification of the Trinity, without convoluting the context!
Many encyclopedias themselves define the doctrine as "a mystery," including the Catholic Encyclopedia. You can't explain a mystery, if encyclopedia's can't. (Speaking of Catholic -- in calling yourself "evangelical," I take it you are not Catholic, right? Why would you want to promote a belief that began to take shape with their leaders at Nicea, in 325 C.E.? The leaders of Catholicism have proven themselves most ungodly! They have too much blood on their hands! They have, as Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:5, "a form of Godliness, put prove false to the power thereof." -- compare 1 John 3:10-15; Matthew 7:20-23)

It's something to consider, my friend.

In Exodus 20:1-6, the God of the Israelites (Yahweh, the God of the Bible, the God of Jesus [John 20:17]) tells us that He is jealous, to not worship "any other gods" before Him. By worshipping the Trinity (including Jesus and the Holy Spirit), you are not giving Yahweh, Jesus' Father (Jehovah, in English), exclusive worship; you're 'spreading it around.'

At John 4:23-24, Jesus said that "true worshippers will worship the Father." Since that's what He did, and Peter tells us to "follow" Him closely (1 Peter 2:21), that's what I will do.

Oh, don't get me wrong, Jesus is my Savior; God sent him and made him that. So I bow down to him, and honor him as my Lord. But my worship goes to the One who made him such......His Father, Jehovah God (John 17:3; Psalms 83:18)

moorea944 · Mar 7, 2016

Hockeycowboy said:
Hello, Yoshua. Hope you are doing well.

There are several questions that I asked....feel free to pick one. Here they are again:
"First, Jesus is "with God," then he is God, but then, "no man has seen God at any time".....what?! Plus, if he is God, who was he praying to, and why? Why would he say, "Let not my will, but yours, be done."? Why did he cry out, "My God, why have You forsaken me?"? If he is God, why would he have a God?"

Really, though, you cannot answer these, in justification of the Trinity, without convoluting the context!
Many encyclopedias themselves define the doctrine as "a mystery," including the Catholic Encyclopedia. You can't explain a mystery, if encyclopedia's can't. (Speaking of Catholic -- in calling yourself "evangelical," I take it you are not Catholic, right? Why would you want to promote a belief that began to take shape with their leaders at Nicea, in 325 C.E.? The leaders of Catholicism have proven themselves most ungodly! They have too much blood on their hands! They have, as Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:5, "a form of Godliness, put prove false to the power thereof." -- compare 1 John 3:10-15; Matthew 7:20-23)

It's something to consider, my friend.

In Exodus 20:1-6, the God of the Israelites (Yahweh, the God of the Bible, the God of Jesus [John 20:17]) tells us that He is jealous, to not worship "any other gods" before Him. By worshipping the Trinity (including Jesus and the Holy Spirit), you are not giving Yahweh, Jesus' Father (Jehovah, in English), exclusive worship; you're 'spreading it around.'

At John 4:23-24, Jesus said that "true worshippers will worship the Father." Since that's what He did, and Peter tells us to "follow" Him closely (1 Peter 2:21), that's what I will do.

Oh, don't get me wrong, Jesus is my Savior; God sent him and made him that. So I bow down to him, and honor him as my Lord. But my worship goes to the One who made him such......His Father, Jehovah God (John 17:3; Psalms 83:18)

Good points!! Plus, would like to add and when people "worshipped" Jesus, it was always to the glory of God and not "to" Jesus. No one ever worshipped Jesus as God. Even the angel in Revelation told John not to worship him, but only to God. God is our ultimate saviour, but he now does it "through" his son. Even in Acts 2, Peter tells everyone in his speech that all the miracles that Jesus was doing was God's miracles that God was doing through His son.

We also have to remember that God was reconciling the world unto himself through Jesus.....

firedragon · Mar 7, 2016

moorea944 said:
No offense taken. But I'll tell you why I think that....

Angels were here at creation helping God. OT says that the angels are the fingers of God. In Hebrew "God" is Elohim, which is plural for Eloah. Elohim is God manifest in a multitude, it can also be rendered as "Mighty Ones". Angels are also called Elohim all through the bible too. "Jesus was made lower than the angels". In Hebrew is it, Jesus was make lower than the Elohim. Man can also be called Elohim too. God working through people. The jugdes were called Elohim because they were the ones who brought the word of God to the people. Same as the Levitical preisthood.

And the God (Elohim) said, Let us make........

If it is not angels or Jesus, who do you think it would be?
God can be, El, Eloah, or Elohim. GOD is Yahweh Himself.

OMG brother, when it says let "us", that is not plural of numbers, its pluralis majestatis, plural of respect.
Elohim is the same. It can never be rendered as "Mighty Ones" as in God and angels. Elohim literally means "Power's". But thats one person, its grammatically singular.

This is the language. Try to understand the language, not from the English point of view, but from the personality of the language. Do you even search it on the internet brother?

I just searched and copied a link, though it is very basic. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Pluralis+majestatis

I really cant believe it.

jeager106 · Mar 7, 2016

Humph! Never occurred to me anyone would even thing Jesus and God were not
two distinct entities.

Oeste · Mar 7, 2016

Oeste said:
I agree with both of you that the Watchtower's (Jehovah Witnesses) view of Jesus is very similar to that of Islam, just not to that of the historical Christian church.

Hockeycowboy said:
Only after 325 C.E.

Inaccurate.

Islam did not worship Jesus after 325 C.E. but Jehovah Witnesses worshiped Jesus since their inception in the late 1800’s. In fact, they worshiped Jesus right up until 1954 when they changed their minds. Jesus worship was even included in the Watchtower charter:

Hockeycowboy said:
And who presided over that council? The murderer, Constantine the Great.

I do not understand what you mean by calling Constantine a murderer. Are you drawing parallels to Moses bringing the tablets, and Constantine somehow bringing the Trinity??? Remember, Moses murdered the Egyptian even though the Egyptian, who was beating a Jew at the time, made no advance on him, whereas I think it’s pretty clear from the historical texts that Maximian hanged himself after leading an unsuccessful revolt against Constantine. Also, the Trinity doctrine was not invented at the Council of Nicea; rather it affirmed who Christ is.

Hockeycowboy said:
Regarding the Apostles and the first-century Christians, their prayer recorded at Acts of the Apostles 4:24-30, tells us who they worshipped....the Father of Jesus (who Jesus called "the only true God", John 17:3). Why weren't they praying to Jesus?

What makes you think they weren't?

Hockeycowboy said:
Actually, they referred to Jesus as, God's "Servant"! Far cry from God!

Strawman. No one here suggested that being called a servant of God equates you with being God.

Hockeycowboy said:
Also, consider: why would Christians worship at the Temple (until its destruction in 70 C.E.)? That was where people worshipped Jehovah.

Christians are free to worship God anywhere, they simply worship in Spirit and truth (John 4:20-24)

Hockeycowboy said:
The fact is, God didn't change....only the proper way to worship Him, did.....through faith in Jesus' sacrifice.

So the proper way for Christians to worship God changed in 1954? Given your current belief, does this mean Jehovah Witnesses worshiped a man for most of its history?

The fact of the matter is that the Watchtower has argued far longer for the worship of Jesus than against it, and any future change on who gets worshiped in your organization is just a “new light” publication away.

If you don’t believe this, look at your history. It wasn't until 1999 that Jesus worship was removed from your charter.

You marvel at how Trinitarians can worship Jesus yet your own Organization did the same. This was no accident, no slip up or mis-wording of your charter. Their were myriads of Watchtower articles that dealt explicitly with the deity of Christ, stating worship was right and proper.

You did an about face in 1954 with a single Watchtower issue, and if the Watchtower ever comes back to its original stance you will do an about face once again.

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