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Compare Lao Tzu To Jesus!

d.

_______
angellous_evangellous said:
I think that we can call Jesus' experience with God "transendental," but to think of it in a Taoist sense would be a mistake.

i think it could be important to note that not all taoists feel that the word 'transcendental' properly describes the taoist experience. as pureX recently put it in another thread, and i agree with him here :

PureX said:
One of the reasons that I'm drawn to taoism (at least philosophical taoism) is that it's not about attempting to 'transcend' oneself. In fact, this idea of transcendence is where I draw my own line between myself and religious Christianity, as well. I'm not interested in transcending my humanness. I'm not interested in being something other than what I am.

however, with this in mind :

Sunstone said:
I wonder if Jesus himself meant to prescribe laws for people, or whether he believed that you should love and then follow what love teaches you? What do you think?

i wonder if it's possible to see jesus experiences in a different light? as not transcendental, but interpreted by his apostles as being transcendental? again, i'm no bible scholar, so i'm basically just throwing out ideas here.

does anyone know what the opposite of 'transcendental' would be? :)
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
divine said:
i wonder if it's possible to see jesus experiences in a different light? as not transcendental, but interpreted by his apostles as being transcendental? again, i'm no bible scholar, so i'm basically just throwing out ideas here.

Well, not in the Taoist sense at least.

In any case, seperating Jesus' words, actions, and experiences from the interpretations of his apostles has proven to be critically impossible. That is, no reliable critical method exists by which we can seperate Jesus from interpretation.
 

d.

_______
angellous_evangellous said:
In any case, seperating Jesus' words, actions, and experiences from the interpretations of his apostles has proven to be critically impossible. That is, no reliable critical method exists by which we can seperate Jesus from interpretation.

fair enough - i've argued the same thing myself on other occasions :).

what about the accounts given in the gnostic gospels and/or the apocrypha(i'm a bit uncertain if they're the same thing:eek:) ? how do you view things like the contradiction between thomas and john? is there an academic consensus?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
From:-http://home.znet.com/mt/tao.html

The basic difference between the two "philosophies" is that the Western idea of God always keeps God as something separate from man. God is purposeful within the Western sense, but in Taoism God does not exist as a purposeful Being.
In traditional Christianity the individual does not become one with God. To say "my Father and I are one" is still blasphemous [except in the Christian mystical tradition]. Such a statement is reserved for Jesus but not us. But it is this direct experience to which Taoist teachings point as a Knowing of who we are.

Taoism, as a philosophy, points to something that is beyond the realm of conceptual experience. Taoism, actually, is not philosophy, not a dogma, not a morality to be applied or imposed upon people. It is not a religion or something to be believed and then acted in accordance with belief.

http://www.ways-of-christ.net/topics/taoism.htm
1. The original teaching of the highest principle.
The original teaching of the highest principle, Tao, "about which nothing can be said", is also the original unity before the separation of the polarities Yin and Yang*) and after that of the "5 elements"*. , This original unity is that which is behind the manifestations of the universe.
The Christian missionaries, e.g. the Jesuits, found this highest principle to correspond with God, although the Franciscan and Benedictine monks and finally the Pope disagreed. On one hand the "Tao" is not in keeping with the new experience of God as a Father which one can contact personally, as Jesus taught. On the other hand it is possible, that it is an older way of seeking and experiencing God, as it was possible in ancient China.

It does not alter the fact that the practices of the old Chinese and later Taoist masters show a spiritual nature. The old insights about the role of "elements" and forces in the body were taken up, because one can hardly bypass physical imperfection on the way to more spiritual perfection - in a holistic sense. That is a style of spirituality that does not intend to withdraw from the earth, unlike some other eastern spiritual traditions. Striving for perfection as such would not be contrary to the Christian teaching of the redemption. It has often been forgotten that Jesus said, "Be (become) perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5,48). However, the methods are different. The Early Christians knew that one can prepare and open oneself actively for the influence of God. However, Christians also knew all the time that it is not possible to force the mercy of God by activities like this: God is free too.


That which has been described so far is the common ground of the later schools of Lao-tse und Con-fu-tse (Confucius) - historians think they lived around 500 BC
Taoism (Lao-Tse: among others the book "Tao-te-ching") taught "To act with the meditative attitude of doing nothing" (Woo-Wai). That is, nothing is done by the egoist and intellectual part of man, but by the natural instincts of the good core of man - being in harmony with nature. This attitude wouldresult in some kind of natural ethics of altruism and modesty.
This good core is not automatically identical with Jesus Christ, who can take shape in man, and is active there (John 15: "...Remain in me and I will remain in you"). But today's theologians cannot deny that persons of a different faith have a good core - the similar ethics of most religions show that "the Good" has caught on everywhere. Even the Holy Spirit "blows wherever he pleases" (John 3).
Taoists were always practicians, not theoreticians. Taoism makes use of:
- Asceticism. This occurs within all religions. But there are also practices for the sublimation or transformation of sexuality (e.g. Mantak Chia, "Tao Yoga" and "Tao Yoga of love". The old eastern paths often start "from the bottom to the top", unlike European/western paths, which start mainly "from the top to the bottom" today, meaning "from the consciousness".
- Exercises for body, breath, and concentration for awaking and directing the live energy, or "Chi". Since the scientific investigation of acupuncture and electro-acupuncture, the existence of that live energy has been proved. It is not important that these scientists have not yet been able to understand the exact nature of that phenomenon. The "Meridians" of acupuncture have now been proven to exist, even in the tissue, as "empty channels". So this life force is not "Taoist", as some Christians thought, but simply human. In the old Greek and early Christian era it was called "Pneuma", a Greek word meaning the breath and the life force as well - the breath of life, blown into man by God -; and it was also used to mean the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit is in the context of Jesus Christ. So, if someone does not attune himself to Jesus Christ, how should he know that he is experiencing the Holy Spirit which Jesus announced?
- Furthermore, the Taoist methods include - like the Indian Yoga - the meditative absorption into the Origin, to go beyond the limitation of life. The alchemistic search for immortality plays a role too.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
divine said:
fair enough - i've argued the same thing myself on other occasions :).

what about the accounts given in the gnostic gospels and/or the apocrypha(i'm a bit uncertain if they're the same thing:eek:) ? how do you view things like the contradiction between thomas and john? is there an academic consensus?

They are not representative of the same religious tradition. I follow E. Earle Ellis' Making of the New Testament Documents. Ellis theorizes that the apostles produced the writings of the NT in general theological agreement - there were four Christian missionary campaigns that produced the four Gospels and the rest of the canon can be linked to one of these four traditions.

I'm not sure what contradiction you're referring to, but there is scholarly consesus that Thomas is a later reinterpretation of the Gospels, and that it stands in theological contrast to the original messages.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
michel said:
From:-http://home.znet.com/mt/tao.html

The basic difference between the two "philosophies" is that the Western idea of God always keeps God as something separate from man. God is purposeful within the Western sense, but in Taoism God does not exist as a purposeful Being.
In traditional Christianity the individual does not become one with God. To say "my Father and I are one" is still blasphemous [except in the Christian mystical tradition]. Such a statement is reserved for Jesus but not us. But it is this direct experience to which Taoist teachings point as a Knowing of who we are.

Taoism, as a philosophy, points to something that is beyond the realm of conceptual experience. Taoism, actually, is not philosophy, not a dogma, not a morality to be applied or imposed upon people. It is not a religion or something to be believed and then acted in accordance with belief.

http://www.ways-of-christ.net/topics/taoism.htm
1. The original teaching of the highest principle.
The original teaching of the highest principle, Tao, "about which nothing can be said", is also the original unity before the separation of the polarities Yin and Yang*) and after that of the "5 elements"*. , This original unity is that which is behind the manifestations of the universe.
The Christian missionaries, e.g. the Jesuits, found this highest principle to correspond with God, although the Franciscan and Benedictine monks and finally the Pope disagreed. On one hand the "Tao" is not in keeping with the new experience of God as a Father which one can contact personally, as Jesus taught. On the other hand it is possible, that it is an older way of seeking and experiencing God, as it was possible in ancient China.

It does not alter the fact that the practices of the old Chinese and later Taoist masters show a spiritual nature. The old insights about the role of "elements" and forces in the body were taken up, because one can hardly bypass physical imperfection on the way to more spiritual perfection - in a holistic sense. That is a style of spirituality that does not intend to withdraw from the earth, unlike some other eastern spiritual traditions. Striving for perfection as such would not be contrary to the Christian teaching of the redemption. It has often been forgotten that Jesus said, "Be (become) perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5,48). However, the methods are different. The Early Christians knew that one can prepare and open oneself actively for the influence of God. However, Christians also knew all the time that it is not possible to force the mercy of God by activities like this: God is free too.


That which has been described so far is the common ground of the later schools of Lao-tse und Con-fu-tse (Confucius) - historians think they lived around 500 BC
Taoism (Lao-Tse: among others the book "Tao-te-ching") taught "To act with the meditative attitude of doing nothing" (Woo-Wai). That is, nothing is done by the egoist and intellectual part of man, but by the natural instincts of the good core of man - being in harmony with nature. This attitude wouldresult in some kind of natural ethics of altruism and modesty.
This good core is not automatically identical with Jesus Christ, who can take shape in man, and is active there (John 15: "...Remain in me and I will remain in you"). But today's theologians cannot deny that persons of a different faith have a good core - the similar ethics of most religions show that "the Good" has caught on everywhere. Even the Holy Spirit "blows wherever he pleases" (John 3).
Taoists were always practicians, not theoreticians. Taoism makes use of:
- Asceticism. This occurs within all religions. But there are also practices for the sublimation or transformation of sexuality (e.g. Mantak Chia, "Tao Yoga" and "Tao Yoga of love". The old eastern paths often start "from the bottom to the top", unlike European/western paths, which start mainly "from the top to the bottom" today, meaning "from the consciousness".
- Exercises for body, breath, and concentration for awaking and directing the live energy, or "Chi". Since the scientific investigation of acupuncture and electro-acupuncture, the existence of that live energy has been proved. It is not important that these scientists have not yet been able to understand the exact nature of that phenomenon. The "Meridians" of acupuncture have now been proven to exist, even in the tissue, as "empty channels". So this life force is not "Taoist", as some Christians thought, but simply human. In the old Greek and early Christian era it was called "Pneuma", a Greek word meaning the breath and the life force as well - the breath of life, blown into man by God -; and it was also used to mean the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit is in the context of Jesus Christ. So, if someone does not attune himself to Jesus Christ, how should he know that he is experiencing the Holy Spirit which Jesus announced?
- Furthermore, the Taoist methods include - like the Indian Yoga - the meditative absorption into the Origin, to go beyond the limitation of life. The alchemistic search for immortality plays a role too.

Michel, I strongly suspect the article you quote is off the mark in at least two ways: First, in announcing that Taoism is not a religion. If Taoism is not a religion, what is? Is only a belief in the Judeo-Christian deity a religion to the author? Merely because Taoism is more practice than dogma does not rule out its being a religion, IMHO.

Second, the author acknowledges that the Tao does not "translate" well into the Middle Eastern/Western concept of God, but then goes on to use God interchangeably with Tao. This strikes me as disingenuous. I'm all for bringing us closer together, but not to the extent that we blend each other's distinct ideas into a meaningless pap. There's a richness in human religious traditions that is lost when we reduce everything to a syncretic mush.

I think an essential differnce between Taoism and Christianity is that Christianity says "This is so!" while Taoism focuses on the more primal issue, "This is how you find out what is so!". If Christianity is a textbook, Taoism is a library card.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Sunstone said:
Michel, I strongly suspect the article you quote is off the mark in at least two ways: First, in announcing that Taoism is not a religion. If Taoism is not a religion, what is? Is only a belief in the Judeo-Christian deity a religion to the author? Merely because Taoism is more practice than dogma does not rule out its being a religion, IMHO.

Second, the author acknowledges that the Tao does not "translate" well into the Middle Eastern/Western concept of God, but then goes on to use God interchangeably with Tao. This strikes me as disingenuous. I'm all for bringing us closer together, but not to the extent that we blend each other's distinct ideas into a meaningless pap. There's a richness in human religious traditions that is lost when we reduce everything to a syncretic mush.

I think an essential differnce between Taoism and Christianity is that Christianity says "This is so!" while Taoism focuses on the more primal issue, "This is how you find out what is so!". If Christianity is a textbook, Taoism is a library card.

What a wonderful analogy!......I see what you mean, and you make a very valid point.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Divine said:
does anyone know what the opposite of 'transcendental' would be? :)

Good question! As I understand it, ordinary consciousness is the baseline, the starting point. Transcendental consciousness is speculated to be a kind of awareness so radically different from ordinary consciousness that many, most or even (perhaps) all of ordinary consciousness is "replaced" by this awareness. So, the opposite of "transcendental awareness" or "transcendental experiencing" is "ordinary consciousness" or "ordinary experiencing"
 

d.

_______
angellous_evangellous said:
They are not representative of the same religious tradition. I follow E. Earle Ellis' Making of the New Testament Documents. Ellis theorizes that the apostles produced the writings of the NT in general theological agreement - there were four Christian missionary campaigns that produced the four Gospels and the rest of the canon can be linked to one of these four traditions.

I'm not sure what contradiction you're referring to, but there is scholarly consesus that Thomas is a later reinterpretation of the Gospels, and that it stands in theological contrast to the original messages.
thank you, that's exactly the kind of answer i was hoping for. so thomas is generally considered to be based on the gospels, not on first-hand experience with jesus? is that right?

sorry, i should have provided the contradiction (pointed out by SS on p.2 of this thread) :

thomas :

BLATZ
(113) His disciples said to him: On what day will the kingdom come? <Jesus said:> It will not come while people watch for it; they will not say: Look, here it is, or: Look, there it is; but the kingdom of the father is spread out over the earth, and men do not see it.

LAYTON
(113) His disciples said to him, "When is the kingdom going to come?" <Jesus said>, "It is not by being waited for that it is going to come. They are not going to say, 'Here it is' or 'There it is.' Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out over the earth, and people do not see it."


DORESSE
117 [113]. His disciples said to him: "On what day will the kingdom come?" "It will not come when it is expected. No one will say: 'See, it is here!' or: 'Look, it is there!' but the Kingdom of the Father is spread over the earth and men do not see it."

source



john 18:36 :


Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."


this isn't necessarily a contradiction, i guess - depends on how literally you want to interpret these quotes.
 

d.

_______
Taoism (Lao-Tse: among others the book "Tao-te-ching") taught "To act with the meditative attitude of doing nothing" (Woo-Wai).

first, this statement could lead one to think that lao tzu wrote more books than just the tao te ching - if he even was a real historic person, those books have in that case been lost in the mists of time.

second, wu-wei is often translated as non-action, but as i understand it it is best understood as 'non-force' not trying to force things to happen but instead 'let things unfold' in a natural way. this is not the same as being passive, it is more like a realisation that 'swimming with the tide' gives better results. the basic premise is that there is 'a way of things' that can't be bettered, and going against that way or trying to change it will give poor results.

Taoists were always practicians, not theoreticians. Taoism makes use of:
- Asceticism. This occurs within all religions. But there are also practices for the sublimation or transformation of sexuality (e.g. Mantak Chia, "Tao Yoga" and "Tao Yoga of love". The old eastern paths often start "from the bottom to the top", unlike European/western paths, which start mainly "from the top to the bottom" today, meaning "from the consciousness".
- Exercises for body, breath, and concentration for awaking and directing the live energy, or "Chi". Since the scientific investigation of acupuncture and electro-acupuncture, the existence of that live energy has been proved. It is not important that these scientists have not yet been able to understand the exact nature of that phenomenon. The "Meridians" of acupuncture have now been proven to exist, even in the tissue, as "empty channels".

in tao jia, no special excercises or practices are prescribed. especially not acupuncture. :confused:

So this life force is not "Taoist", as some Christians thought, but simply human.

here's a curious quote. i don't even know where to begin!
 

anders

Well-Known Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Hebrew (Aramaic) and Greek both descend from Sanscrit,
Sorry, but this is nonsense. Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic belong to a language family very different from our Indo-European language family (which includes English, Sanskrit, Pali, Latin, Greek etc.) Greek did not descend from Sanskrit (that it did is a 19th century view) but is a sister language, to continue the family analogy.
Greek and Hebrew both had a vocabulary that could express transendental or mystical experiences.
Considering the small difference between Hebrew and Aramaic, and Jesus knowing the Torah, he, being divine, should have had no problems in expressing those sentiments in Greek.
I'm not convinced that it would be possible for Jesus to have a far eastern philosophy or a Hindu or Buddhist one.
You needn't travel that far. Several ideas might have come from Zoroastrianism in Persia, like all the figurative references to fire.
NT scholarship has very breifly explored relationships between the Buddha and Jesus, rejecting any possible contact between Jesus and Buddhism. In my opinion, any contact with Tao is even less likely.
I agree.
divine said:
second, wu-wei is often translated as non-action, but as i understand it it is best understood as 'non-force' not trying to force things to happen but instead 'let things unfold' in a natural way. this is not the same as being passive, it is more like a realisation that 'swimming with the tide' gives better results. the basic premise is that there is 'a way of things' that can't be bettered, and going against that way or trying to change it will give poor results.
I fully agree that wu wei means not acting against the Dao rather that doing nothing. This leads IMO to a very major difference between Daoism and several if not most other religions. Other religions often say "Act!", for example by praying, offering things/creatures, cleaning yourself, killing unbelivers or naughty children or those who unauthorized happen to listen to holy texts etc. Such practices are very contrary to Daoism. Jesus interfered with his environment, for example in the cleaning of the Temple. I'd say that acting against that established commerce is against the Dao, and accordingly and rather automatically, there will be consequences.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Divine said:
second, wu-wei is often translated as non-action, but as i understand it it is best understood as 'non-force' not trying to force things to happen but instead 'let things unfold' in a natural way. this is not the same as being passive, it is more like a realisation that 'swimming with the tide' gives better results. the basic premise is that there is 'a way of things' that can't be bettered, and going against that way or trying to change it will give poor results.

I think those are crucial points, Divine. When I first encountered Eastern religions, I assumed they were talking about passivity. Nothing could be more mistaken. Your analogy of "swimming with the tide" is excellent. By going with the Tao, rather than oppose it, the Taoist multiplies the effectiveness of his or her actions (or non actions) and does so with a wonderful economy of effort. This, at least, seems to me the goal of moving with the Tao.

Remarkably, we've all experienced such things. Nearly everyone knows what it's like to pedal a bike down a slope, knows the multiplying effect of doing so, or knows how it is to stand up and use our weight as much as our muscles when pedalling up a slope. That example is obvious to most of us. But Taoists take this principle of going with the grain of the Tao much further and extend it to everything, for everything is of the Tao.

Hence, the principles of Taoism can be applied equally to tending one's garden or ruling a country. When I supervised people, I tried not to fire people who were unproductive, but rather to find jobs for them in which they would naturally be productive because of their personality, interests, skills, and inclinations. (BTW, I learned that not from Taoism, but from my first boss, which is perhaps more evidence for the notion that there is a natural way of doing things.) I remember very well a young man whose personality grated with me, and who was one of the unhappiest workers I'd ever met. He was so pessimistic about his job that he had created a dark rain cloud over his desk which effected everyone around him. I moved him into collections. A week later, I noticed he was doing quite well, so I asked him about his new job: "This is the best thing I've ever done!", he told me, "I love calling people who can't pay their bills and working out ways they can pay." And it was the first time I'd seen him smile in happiness. Not a job I would have enjoyed, but he did exceptionally well at it, setting records for collected revenue, as well as remaining polite at all times with the customers. When I thought about it at the time, I realized it was the match between his personality and the job that made it work out. Putting him in that positon was as effective as putting him on a bike and telling him to pedal downhill.

So, is that really passive? People used to think I was a passive boss. But my co-workers consistantly produced results exceeding corporate expectations. I doubt if Taoists are any more genuinely passive than I was as a supervisor.
 

d.

_______
Sunstone said:
So, is that really passive? People used to think I was a passive boss. But my co-workers consistantly produced results exceeding corporate expectations. I doubt if Taoists are any more genuinely passive than I was as a supervisor.
as you say, that's in perfect accordance with taoist teachings :) :

verse 17 (mitchell translation)


When the Master governs, the people are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

If you don't trust the people, you make them untrustworthy.
The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done, the people say,
"Amazing: we did it, all by ourselves!"


great post!
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Anders said:
Jesus interfered with his environment, for example in the cleaning of the Temple. I'd say that acting against that established commerce is against the Dao, and accordingly and rather automatically, there will be consequences.

Assuming Jesus's goal was not to get on the wrong side of the law, was not to tick off the authorities, then I agree this would be pretty good evidence for your position that he acted against the Dao.

I wonder to what extent he acted with, and to what extent he acted at odds with, the Tao? Can anyone think of examples of both?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Divine said:
When the Master governs, the people are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

If you don't trust the people, you make them untrustworthy.
The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done, the people say,
"Amazing: we did it, all by ourselves!"

This is just an aside, Divine, but I've known many supervisors and managers over the years, both as co-workers, and when I was a consultant to management: IMHO, far too many American bosses think the only two choices they have are between being feared and being despised. Far too many. The best don't think that (and my own bosses have been among the best I've seen), but the mediocre tend to. They don't even get off the ground as bosses, but fruitlessly beat their wings with loud squawks and much meaningless gnashing of their beaks. It's comical and plathetic at once. Just had to rank about that. Thanks for your patience! [/rant]
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Sorry, but this is nonsense. Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic belong to a language family very different from our Indo-European language family (which includes English, Sanskrit, Pali, Latin, Greek etc.) Greek did not descend from Sanskrit (that it did is a 19th century view) but is a sister language, to continue the family analogy.

If you have access to JSTOR, I found an article that will help make you aware of scholarship that connects Hebrew to Sanskrit.

The Hebrew Slave According to Deuteronomy 15:12-18: His Lot and the Value of His Work, with Special Attention to the Meaning of <RLE>&#1502;&#1460;&#1513;&#1473;&#1456;&#1504;&#1468;&#1492;<PDF>
Matitiahu Tsevat
Journal of Biblical Literature > Vol. 113, No. 4 (Winter, 1994), pp. 587-595
Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-9231%28199424%29113%3A4%3C587%3ATHSATD%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U
Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation


I recall sitting in a Hebrew course learning the Hebrew alphabet. It was shocking to see that the first four letters are essentially the same in Sanskrit, Greek, and Hebrew. I have a mountain of research connecting Sanskrit to Hebrew - most of it is from the 19th century, and we can't produce a Greek grammar that does not mention roots of various problems in Sanskrit.

I admit that I took the prof at his word - at the time I was unqualified to review it. I will be careful now to review it in light of your comments.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Sunstone said:
What, if any, are ther similarities between Lao Tzu's concept of Ultimate Reality and Jesus's concept of Ultimate Reality? What, if any, are the differences?
Lao Tzu does not refer to an "ultimate reality". "Tao" is a word referring to the way existence manifests itself, and taoism specifically leaves any speculations beyond that point a mystery that we humans can't penetrate. When a taoist uses the term "god", he's referring only to the idea of a divine being that exists in the minds of his fellow humans. He is not referring to any actual supernatural personality.

Jesus, on the other hand, would probably say that God is the "ultimate reality" from which all existence and our reality are manifest. Keep in mind that a taoist would not dispute this claim. He would simply consider it a matter beyond his ability to comprehend, and humbly let it remain a mystery. So I guess the only real difference I see here, is that Lao Tzu chooses not to address such thoughts, while most Christians not only address them, but insist on their validity. (Did Jesus ever actually say he considered God to be the ultimate reality, though? I'm not sure. Scriptures are suspect and sketchy. Though I do believe that the idea could logically be inferred from the sum of Jesus' comments.)
Sunstone said:
Is there a similarity in goals between Lao Tzu and Jesus? Did both of them want to restore society, rather than invent something new for society?
I would say that both were distinctly interested in restoring authenticity to their respective cultures. In Jesus case, he was a Jew, and remained a Jew. He was not interested in starting a new religion, he was trying to get Judaism to focus on the divine spirit from which he believed Judaism was sprung, rather than Judaism getting lost in the rules and rituals and politics of religion, as was clearly the case in his own time.

Lao Tzu was not interested in religion, but was similarly interested in living an authentic life, and encouraging others to do the same. He, however, viewed authenticity more in terms of individual honesty, humility, and philosophical perspective, rather than in terms of the human/divine "spirit" manifested within us (which is a distinctly religious perspective).
Sunstone said:
Is there a similarity between Jesus's concept of love (agape) and Lao Tzu's concept of the Tao? What, if anything, are the differences?
There are both similarities and differences. I think the similarities can be seen most clearly in the concept of love as expressed by forgiveness. I think both Lao Tzu and Jesus both understand and express the need for an attitude of forgiveness toward ourselves, each other, and life in general, and an attitude of unity and inclusion with the world rather than of individuality and self-centered desire. Forgiveness is a good word for the psychic medium through which such unity and inclusion is achieved.

Where they differ, I think, is that Jesus specifically focusses on love, come from God, to us, and through us, to each other. Lao Tzu does not talk of "love", but rather of acceptance, appreciation, and openness.

However, I once heard it said, and do believe myself, that the essence of the act of loving someone is in "showing up, being there, and paying attention". And I think that is exactly what Lao Tzu is trying to teach others to do in relation to their own life. Taoism is all about being in the moment, and paying attention to the flow of existence as it is expressing itself all around us, in that moment. It could easily be argued that what Lau Tsu is really talking about is the practice of, or act of "loving life".

I think Jesus and Lao Tzu are more similar than different in relation to "love", once we let go of the idea that love is an emotion that we feel, and is an expressed act or endeavor, instead.
Sunstone said:
If a wise Taoist and a wise Christian met on the street, what would they have in common? What would they not have in common? Would both be equally wise? Or, would one have an advantage over the other because of his or her religion?
That's a pretty weird question. *smile*

I think wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the philosophical or theological framework through which it's found. I think that when two wise men meet each other, they recognize themselves as brothers on the same path, regardless of the differences in their individual intellectual paradigms.

Wisdom does not divide people, it unifies people.
Sunstone said:
What other comparisons and/or contrasts do you find between Lao Tzu and Jesus?
To me, they are brothers and friends. They speak of the same light and wisdom, and they teach the same lessons even though from different perspectives. The only real difference is that Lao Tsu comes to me directly through his poems, while Jesus only comes to me through the recorded here-say of his followers. And unfortunately that means that the representation of Jesus' mind and heart that I have available to me, is pretty sketchy, and has been "enhanced" by the veneration, ignorance, and prejudice of the witnesses telling us his story.

It is true that we don't know who "Lao Tzu" really was (the name "Lao Tzu is a term of endearment roughly translated as "the old boy"). But it is also true that one person, whatever his real name was, wrote those poems, and his actual name doesn't really matter. What matters is that his heart and mind has been conveyed directly to us through what he wrote.

I sure wish that had happened with Jesus. But unfortunately, it did not. At least not as far as we know.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Sunstone said:
Assuming Jesus's goal was not to get on the wrong side of the law, was not to tick off the authorities, then I agree this would be pretty good evidence for your position that he acted against the Dao.

I wonder to what extent he acted with, and to what extent he acted at odds with, the Tao? Can anyone think of examples of both?
Here is a classically taoist comment:

When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.

- Lao Tzu​

When I look at such a poem and ask myself what would Jesus think of this, I immediately run into a second question, and that is: "Which Jesus?" There is the Jesus of religious Christianity, and there is the Jesus that I have invented in my own mind from inferences that I found in his story, as it has been given to me by his followers.

My Jesus would be in complete agreement with the fist part of this poem:
"When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad."

Jesus made a number of comments about the limitations of the function of religious laws, and about how their purpose is to point out our sin or error, and that once this purpose has been served, and the spirit of all good laws has been illuminated and embraced (that spirit being love), then there is no further need for them. However, many Christians disagree with me about this.

"Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.


I don't honestly know how Jesus would react to this. This part of the poem is expressing a distinctly eastern perspective that Jesus would not have been familiar with. My guess is that once he was helped to understand the concept of relativism, he would have appreciated the unifying nature of the result of this kind of perspective.

"Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever."

First, I have to point out that in the language in which Lao Tzu wrote, there are non-gender pronouns, so that when Lao Tzu referred to "the Master", he could do so without inferring any gender. In our language, unfortunately, this is not possible. All of our pronouns are gender-specific. And so the author of my favored translation decided to alternate the gender pronouns in each succeeding poem. This is the second poem in the Tao Te Ching, so it happens to have female pronouns in the translation. I'm sure the use of a female pronoun in relation to "the Master" would have shocked and confused Jesus, and anyone else of his time and culture. But would Jesus have understood and agreed with the idea being presented, here? Again, I don't know.

I personally think Jesus could have grasped the subtlety and wisdom of "teaching without speaking", easily, and would have appreciated the whole general inference of this passage. The reason I say this is that Jesus was a master, himself, at using enigmatic comments and statements and actions, as teaching tools. He beguiled his listeners on a number of occasions with the specific purpose of forcing them to think "outside the box". My guess is that Jesus would not only have understood this passage, but would have applauded it's concept. And I think he would have recognized and appreciated thoroughly the idea that we teach others by what we are, not by what we tell them to be.

I also feel that although Jesus did go out and preach, and did occasionally berate the Pharisees, he was not especially pushy about his message. When he encountered people who did not take to his ideas, he simply let them be on their way, and he went on his. He seemed to understand that truth does not require force, or manipulation, or even protection - that it can stand on it's own without his help. Though he still was willing to do his part in the service of truth.

People wrongly assume that when taoism speaks of "inaction" that this is meant literally, when it's not. Taoism speaks of a more idealized form of "inaction". That is the inaction that comes with understanding and respecting that truth is reality and that reality is what it is with or without us. The world and it's people do not need us to "correct" it, or to point out it's "flaws". It only needs us to be authentically who we are, within it. And if we will each do that, the truth of reality will shine like a diamond, for all to see and appreciate.

I believe Jesus not only understood this, but preached it as the "kingdom of heaven on Earth". But then, I'm talking about the Jesus that I imagine in my own mind, as I infer him from what little information I have to tell me who he was and what he may have thought.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Great posts, PureX!

"Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever."

Can these verses be seen in light of Jesus's lilies of the valley metaphor? Was Jesus getting at a similar concept of allowing the way things are to come and go, or was he only advising his disciples to not worry about the future?
 

Jerrell

Active Member
Howbeit those that dont know Jesus try to tell other who he is. Jesus was one of many "messiahs" to come. Yet he is the only true Messiah to ever come. He was sinless, loving, powerful, and truthful. He died for the sinful to reunite you with God. Jesus was Immanuel, God with us. Jesus will always be attaccked by Disbeleivers, but Jesus cannot be compared to anyone. Even if you lower him to just being a human, he has had an effect on this world that cannot be matched. It is a deadend to try to compare Jesus, he can't be compared, not that any harm would be done. But unless you are trying to do good by Comparing Jesus to someone less than divine, to help them see who he is...you're heading down the wrong road.
 
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