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"....and then the end will come" (Matt 24:14) The "end" of What?

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually disagreement was not tolerated at all in the first century. The apostles were about settling disagreements, not permitting them. The circumcision issue was a prime example. It appears that the disputes were becoming heated and so the body of elders and the apostles in Jerusalem settled it once and for all. John also highlighted the need for unity when he said....
"Look out for yourselves, so that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. 9 Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." (2 John 8-11)
Paul refers to Christ as resurrected according to the scriptures, the scriptures which attest that Israel is to be resurrected (and not a man). Therefore he believes not in a resurrection of a man but in the renewal of Israel. This is not at all the way you seem to think about Christ. You seem to think Christ is one man. Therefore this statement you have quoted does not suggest what you are saying it does. The teaching of Christ requires that you humble yourself and consider others higher than yourself. I refer you to James, a very short book in the Bible that has many examples. Each person asks for wisdom from God rather than trying to dicker with their neighbor over differences. In the letter I John we read that Love is the commandment given. Love contradicts the idea of agreement through argument. Sometimes honoring God just takes humility and putting up with other people, and this contrasts with the sense of unity people think they have when they focus on saying all the same scripts. It isn't 'Saying the same thing' like Paul means it. Paul suggests agreement through one name, the name Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul too....
"Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought." (1 Cor 1:10)

In the first century things were kept under control. After the death of the apostles however, things changed markedly.....an apostasy was foretold.
He urges them to accomplish this through the name "Lord Jesus Christ," and solving things by dispute and argument is not at all what he wants. The name is something you say, so you all say the same thing. Its a figure of speech. The basic message begins with John the Baptist preaching of the lowering of the high places and raising of valleys (Voice calling in the desert etc), meaning nobody is smarter or better or more honest than another. Jesus proceeds to correct the Pharisees about their fractious ways, which are similar to the ways of JW's, SBC's, RCC's and so forth. Everybody has their little group, so almost nobody is gathering in his name but in our own names. John's emphasis in your quoted passage is through the name "Lord Jesus Christ," but you want to flip it and make it be about reading from scripts. That is a temptation, not a solution nor what 1Corinthians means.

Yes, when the apostasy was in full swing, men were want to have their own way with God's word and introduced man-made traditions just as Judaism had done before her....and with the same result.
There are twelve apostles chosen from all different backgrounds. They agree in the name Lord Jesus Christ and fellow-ship in that name alone. The narrow path is humility, denial of self, satisfaction in Christ not in speeches. They all say the same name, and that is the same speech. Apostasy happens when someone leaves Christ, not when they have their own thoughts about an interpretation.

We need to read the whole chapter to get the sense of what Paul was saying. When he was speaking of the resurrection of Christ, he was not talking about an afterlife as Christendom came to understand it.....he was talking about raising someone from the dead in either a physical body (like Lazarus) or in a spiritual body, (like Jesus.) He was not speaking about an immortal soul.....some invisible part of man that leaves the body at death....that was never a Jewish belief. Jews believed in sleeping in death, unconscious and inactive (Eccl 9:5, 10) and being raised back to life in a body re-created by God. That body could be either physical to be restored to life on earth, or spiritual in order to be raised to life in heaven as a king/priest with Jesus. (Rev 20:6)
Those who will be raised to heaven will be resurrected "first" but not until Christ's return. (1 Thess 4:13-16)
Later Jesus will call the rest of the dead from their graves, not from heaven . (John 5:28, 29)
Paul has to agree with the canon, so if he's talking about Tanach he's not talking about personal afterlives. His conversation about resurrection is based upon the scriptures, which are about the restoration of Israel. He isn't allowed to change the canon. As an apostle he has to be basing his discussion on that, and in turn we should be able to follow his meaning based upon having that in common with him. In addition, everything that can be known about God can be deduced from observing the world. Paul says this, too. God is not revealed to us through Paul. The gospels writers have the same restriction, so we apply it but not as a litmus test for who is or isn't in Christ.

I am suggesting to you what I feel has become obvious -- that to Paul, Christ is that restoration of Israel, which he refers to as 'The Anointed' (translates to Christ). Everything is about that, and nothing seems to be about an afterlife for individuals. Afterlife appears to be a Greek concept, something that is about the self. Life in Christ is about denying the self. For emphasis: everything written in the New Testament books is subject to the Tanach. If you can't source things from there, then you haven't understood them or there is a problem of some kind. I see your quote from John and I hear your suggestion, but I don't see how it follows from the canon. I think you don't either.

Jesus clearly connects this "sign" with his "presence" as king...not his "coming" as judge. These are two separate events....one unseen to human eyes...the other unmissable.
Best not to respond to that comment if we cannot agree on the above.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Sorry I cannot see the connections you are referring to. "The age of Cain" and "pacifism"?

And I can see no connection with the last quoted scripture either. This is all very disconnected but I am sure you see the connection in there somewhere....


Be more honest with yourself. Everything is put into the simplest means of comprehension possible. Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for the Son of Man's sake will find it.

The end being referred to is the end of Cain's shame and contempt; the rebirth of Elijah into John the Baptist. This is the good news of the reign. You may not understand, but all will be made aware of the truth, as all are being reborn.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Put your brain around the real meaning of end.
telos: an end, a toll
Original Word: τέλος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: telos
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-os)
Short Definition: an end, purpose, tax
Definition: (a) an end, (b) event or issue, (c) the principal end, aim, purpose, (d) a tax.

They say it means the destruction of the wicked but why is their death link to the meaning of a paid tax? Jesus paid it for us. Did he not?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Luke 22:37
Romans 13:7
Look at the verb form of end.

teleó: to bring to an end, complete, fulfill
Original Word: τελέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I end, accomplish, pay
Definition: (a) I end, finish, (b) I fulfill, accomplish, (c) I pay.
http://biblehub.com/greek/5055.htm

Do not keep teaching that the death of the wicked is something which is being "accomplished" by God.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Does anyone understand the question?
Why does Jesus link the destruction of the wicked to accomplishment? The problem is he doesn't but they teach it that way.
1 Timothy 2:4
Ezekiel 18:23
Ezekiel 18:32
Ezekiel 33:11
John 3:17
1 Timothy 4:10
2 Peter 3:9
Isaiah 30:18
Psalms 77:8

Think of it like this, if you can.
Take 1 Timothy 4:10 and this in mind.
You already know the half of it. Galatians 5:7
Believers are the disciples of The Lord in his "absence". But he is present like he promised to be. Correct? Matthew 28:20
The Lord who is the truth leads the world out of the great tribulation because it is a going up, not a going through.
Who made it a going through? Anyway, according to 1 Timothy 4:10 a person need not believe to be saved. Matthew 25:31-46
But nobody is saved without believing. If I am saved being present on the same globe with you, then you are saved too. No?
I just had a thought. For their dream to come true then the last believer must pass away. But they have written that the last wicked
person must pass away for God to accomplish God's will.
Care for another scripture?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And it was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Proverbs 8:36

That isn't the one I asked if you wanted.

Should I explain 8:36? I mean why I posted it?
Their dogma is about death and not life.
See? They say for God to do what God does the wicked must die first.
Jesus the way, the truth The Life. Do you see it now?
So then anyone that teaches that way Isaiah 5:20 hates The Life. Who is the life?
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why not look at the math of it? God will act but only after the death of all the wicked so the wicked must
exist for God's will be done. But that is in YOUR crazy equation. It isn't the truth. Are you teaching
anything opposed to the way, the truth and the life? You are. That means you hate it. Proverbs 8:36
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe "the end" which comes means the understanding of and love for Jesus Christ who................................................................
..................................................................came to HIS end.
John 14:18
John 14:3
John 14:28
John 16:16
Revelation 3:20
Matthew 24:33
Luke 12:36
The end means that a person has excepted the will of God to follow him to the end. If you love your own life even a little, you cannot see the end.
The end comes to people who deny themselves. Matthew 16:24 You can't see the end if there is hate in you.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Revelation 22:13

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
He who has endured to the end will be saved.
Doesn't it mean he who has endured to the end will have endured to the end?
What does it mean?
Doesn't it mean that God does not promise anyone anything?
God does promise that "he" will be with a believer. I am sure. Does God promise anything else?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Could you please go and ramble on someone else's thread?

Or better still, start your own? You appear to be having another conversation with yourself......post after post.
I think there's a name for that.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
FYI at length and often are not the same.

Insults instead of answers......a;ways insults instead of answers. I am so jealous of Elijah. You have NO idea.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@Deeje Do you understand the question? Why does Jesus call the termination of the people of the world the same as God calls God's self?
 
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