why doctors?

Buttons* · May 15, 2006

Christiangirl0909 said:
Well, I don't know about the "general Christian view" but my view is that science is good, It is very helpful in finding cures for diseases, as well as making possible websites such as Religious Forums.

well, okay

CG said:
Ummm...well, you did post the thread. I don't know what you were expecting besides answers to questions.

.... i'd say something, but then i'd be just like Jay, and that would make me a *****

.... anyway, thats nice.

Can you quote it scripturally where God in the OT says that you should look to doctors for medical help? Can you find it where God says to rely on his strength for all things only? hmm....

Lindsey-Loo · May 15, 2006

Can you quote it scripturally where God in the OT says that you should look to doctors for medical help?

Can you find where it doesn't?

And why only in the Old Testament?

Buttons* · May 15, 2006

Christiangirl0909 said:
Can you find where it doesn't?

And why only in the Old Testament?

I'm asking because I dont know, CG

OT because in the NT people are getting confused with Yeshua's healing miracles. This is not what the thread is about.

Defij · May 15, 2006

Buttons* said:
*giggles* Yes, i know. I used to be Christian

It's not just publicity, its an aspect that's being taught at my school! I go to a private christian school... and most of what they teach, imo, is crap. But if anyone actually believes like they do, I'd like to smack them up the head and say... "how does that make ANY sense?" *shrugs* Anyway, I do realize that the majority of Christians in the world aren't this anal. This question was more directed at those who do have a rather large stick up their butts. *smiles*

Jesus is not God. Yeshua is the son of God. Yet, he is part of the trinity, and NOT the father. I'm not talking of Yeshua's miracles, I'm JUST discussing OT God.

*giggles* I know who Luke is

Did Luke ever meet Yeshua? (no)

Let's stick to the OT. Think of Job.

Okay, good to know you have the basic foundation of knowledge then. So yes, lets discuss the Old Testament. Job? Well you DO know that there probably never was a real Job person. The book of Job is simply a Didactic Narrative (Didactic is a fancy word that us Biblical Scholars use to mean teaching) that the post-Babylonian exilic editors of the Old Testament wrote in order to show that the Deuteronomical Principle isnt always correct. What is the Deuteronomical principle you might ask? Well it, in a nutshell, is the theological view that if one obeys covenant (Mosaic) then YHWH will bless them. If they disobey covenant then YHWH will bring curses upon them. This was a major revelation that developed during the exile. While the Jewish people were in captivity they had a chance to look back and question Why are we here? What did we do, or not do, that landed us in this predicament? So what comes out of this is the strong deuteronomical view of the world. We see this in the books that were edited by these Jewish Priests (Judges, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles, etc).

So when they got set free, there were two very strong theological views held by the people of Judah. The first we find reflected in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. In this the deuteronomical principle is emphasized, and in fact, they plan to getting right with YHWH by building a wall, isolating themselves from the rest of the world, kicking out their non-Jewish wives and husband (Ezra is the only book in the Bible that actually commands divorce), etc.

The counter view of this view are found in the books of Jonah, Ruth and Job. In Jonah, we find YHWH telling Jonah to go preach to the Assyrians (again, this is not a literal story, but rather another Didactic Narrative, please dont take the whole fish thing literal! Its sad so many people get caught up on that when its such a small part of the story.) Anyways, this book was edited to show that YHWH didnt want isolation but rather to go out to the nations. Ruth is a combat against Ezra and Nehemiahs radical nationalism in that Ruth was a Moabite, and the editor of the book even goes as far as to show that Ruth is in the lineage of David! What a smack in the face of the nationalistic believers, eh?!

And then there is Job. I know I took a long round about way of getting here, but now you can see the historical context and occasion of the book. This book was written to challenge the deuteronomical principle. We see Job, a pillar of deuteronomical living, being punished (seemingly) by YHWH. That is why, for the vast majority of the book, he gets railed by his friends for being a sinner. There must be something he is doing that is causing him to break covenant with YHWH. We see at the end of the book, when YHWH shows up, he tells Job that his friends were wrong, and the real reason for Jobs troubles have nothing to do with breaking covenant, so in that we see the theological point of view of the Jewish editors.

So there you have Job in a nutshell. It is intellectually dishonest to use the book of Job as so many Christians and non-Christians have over the years. When you see it in its proper historical context, we can understand what it is and is not trying to tell us about God.

Buttons* · May 15, 2006

Defij said:
Okay, good to know you have the basic foundation of knowledge then. So yes, lets discuss the Old Testament. Job? Well you DO know that there probably never was a real Job person. The book of Job is simply a Didactic Narrative (Didactic is a fancy word that us Biblical Scholars use to mean teaching) that the post-Babylonian exilic editors of the Old Testament wrote in order to show that the Deuteronomical Principle isnt always correct. What is the Deuteronomical principle you might ask? Well it, in a nutshell, is the theological view that if one obeys covenant (Mosaic) then YHWH will bless them. If they disobey covenant then YHWH will bring curses upon them. This was a major revelation that developed during the exile. While the Jewish people were in captivity they had a chance to look back and question Why are we here? What did we do, or not do, that landed us in this predicament? So what comes out of this is the strong deuteronomical view of the world. We see this in the books that were edited by these Jewish Priests (Judges, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles, etc).

So when they got set free, there were two very strong theological views held by the people of Judah. The first we find reflected in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. In this the deuteronomical principle is emphasized, and in fact, they plan to getting right with YHWH by building a wall, isolating themselves from the rest of the world, kicking out their non-Jewish wives and husband (Ezra is the only book in the Bible that actually commands divorce), etc.

The counter view of this view are found in the books of Jonah, Ruth and Job. In Jonah, we find YHWH telling Jonah to go preach to the Assyrians (again, this is not a literal story, but rather another Didactic Narrative, please dont take the whole fish thing literal! Its sad so many people get caught up on that when its such a small part of the story.) Anyways, this book was edited to show that YHWH didnt want isolation but rather to go out to the nations. Ruth is a combat against Ezra and Nehemiahs radical nationalism in that Ruth was a Moabite, and the editor of the book even goes as far as to show that Ruth is in the lineage of David! What a smack in the face of the nationalistic believers, eh?!

And then there is Job. I know I took a long round about way of getting here, but now you can see the historical context and occasion of the book. This book was written to challenge the deuteronomical principle. We see Job, a pillar of deuteronomical living, being punished (seemingly) by YHWH. That is why, for the vast majority of the book, he gets railed by his friends for being a sinner. There must be something he is doing that is causing him to break covenant with YHWH. We see at the end of the book, when YHWH shows up, he tells Job that his friends were wrong, and the real reason for Jobs troubles have nothing to do with breaking covenant, so in that we see the theological point of view of the Jewish editors.

So there you have Job in a nutshell. It is intellectually dishonest to use the book of Job as so many Christians and non-Christians have over the years. When you see it in its proper historical context, we can understand what it is and is not trying to tell us about God.

I'm surprised you know all that!!! Most Christians I know dont have a clue! *hugs* Frubals to you good sir!

Can we stick with the OP though?

Defij · May 15, 2006

Buttons* said:
I'm surprised you know all that!!! Most Christians I know dont have a clue! *hugs* Frubals to you good sir!

Can we stick with the OP though?

Excuse my ignorance, as I am new to this forum, but what is the "OP"?

Buttons* · May 15, 2006

Defij said:
Excuse my ignorance, as I am new to this forum, but what is the "OP"?

original post, dear sir

Defij · May 15, 2006

Buttons* said:
original post, dear sir

Oh gotcha. You know I actually realized that was probably what OP was as soon as I submitted my last post, but this is way off topic....

Anyways, so yeah what was the debate here all about?! **scratches head**:sorry1:

Buttons* · May 15, 2006

Defij said:
Oh gotcha. You know I actually realized that was probably what OP was as soon as I submitted my last post, but this is way off topic....

Anyways, so yeah what was the debate here all about?! **scratches head**:sorry1:

Should Christians rely on God or on Doctors?

If just on God, why?

If on doctors, why? (because doctors study science, and some Christians have a problem with scientific studies and theories)

If both, why?

dawny0826 · May 15, 2006

panda says: (8:24:29 PM)
okay, the christians say that only god is their healer... and it's gods decision to make or take life

This Christian says that...

God is my SPIRITUAL healer and God is more than able to physically heal me.

He's blessed my life with doctors and physicians who are trained to take care of a lot of physical ailments that I may encounter.

Doesn't change the fact that Christ is the GREATEST physician.

panda says: (8:24:36 PM)
so why do christians have doctors?

For the same reason that we have fast food workers, bus drivers, teachers, police officers and blah blah blah.

panda says: (8:24:52 PM)
either way, you're altering life

We were never told that we aren't to ALTER life.

We're TOTALLY supposed to get out there and alter lives...by spreading the gospel and such.

panda says: (8:25:01 PM)
and therefore messing up with gods plan

Or maybe used within God's plan.

panda says: (8:25:42 PM)
no, but if you give it over to god, then why trust it with man?

Your faith doesn't necessarily rest with man...your faith rests with the one GREATER than the man.

panda says: (8:27:16 PM)
but then why do people bomb abortion clinics and things like that?

(Because they're cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo. (hee hee))

Becky Boo says: (8:27:28 PM)
because they are retarded

You said it, girl.

panda says: (8:27:50 PM)
one of the reasons for pro life is that they're altering life

No...because they're ENDING life. Big difference between altering a life and ending a life.

Buttons* · May 15, 2006

dawny0826 said:
This Christian says that...

God is my SPIRITUAL healer and God is more than able to physically heal me.

He's blessed my life with doctors and physicians who are trained to take care of a lot of physical ailments that I may encounter.

Doesn't change the fact that Christ is the GREATEST physician.

For the same reason that we have fast food workers, bus drivers, teachers, police officers and blah blah blah.

We were never told that we aren't to ALTER life.

We're TOTALLY supposed to get out there and alter lives...by spreading the gospel and such.

I like all of these answers. *smiles*

Dawny said:
Or maybe used within God's plan.

Well, we cant know the plan of a supreme deity... so any argument on that is void i suppose....

Lovely Dawny said:
No...because they're ENDING life. Big difference between altering a life and ending a life.

It all depends on how you look at it. HOWEVER, this is a topic for another thread methinks. (not to mention there are already HOW many threads on this topic? o.0 )

Defij · May 15, 2006

Buttons* said:
Should Christians rely on God or on Doctors?

Buttons* said:
If just on God, why?

If on doctors, why? (because doctors study science, and some Christians have a problem with scientific studies and theories)

If both, why?

Well that depends on what we are to rely on them for. For my inner peace and spiritual well being, I dont think the guy who told me to turn my head and cough would be of much help to me. Likewise, for that broken leg with the bone sticking out of it, turning to the Bible and praying probably wont do much for me.

Buttons* · May 15, 2006

Defij said:
Well that depends on what we are to rely on them for. For my inner peace and spiritual well being, I dont think the guy who told me to turn my head and cough would be of much help to me. Likewise, for that broken leg with the bone sticking out of it, turning to the Bible and praying probably wont do much for me.

*nods* okay, this works

may · May 16, 2006

Defij said:
Okay, good to know you have the basic foundation of knowledge then. So yes, lets discuss the Old Testament. Job? Well you DO know that there probably never was a real Job person. The book of Job is simply a Didactic Narrative (Didactic is a fancy word that us Biblical Scholars use to mean teaching) that the post-Babylonian exilic editors of the Old Testament wrote in order to show that the Deuteronomical Principle isnt always correct. What is the Deuteronomical principle you might ask? Well it, in a nutshell, is the theological view that if one obeys covenant (Mosaic) then YHWH will bless them. If they disobey covenant then YHWH will bring curses upon them. This was a major revelation that developed during the exile. While the Jewish people were in captivity they had a chance to look back and question Why are we here? What did we do, or not do, that landed us in this predicament? So what comes out of this is the strong deuteronomical view of the world. We see this in the books that were edited by these Jewish Priests (Judges, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles, etc).

So when they got set free, there were two very strong theological views held by the people of Judah. The first we find reflected in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. In this the deuteronomical principle is emphasized, and in fact, they plan to getting right with YHWH by building a wall, isolating themselves from the rest of the world, kicking out their non-Jewish wives and husband (Ezra is the only book in the Bible that actually commands divorce), etc.

The counter view of this view are found in the books of Jonah, Ruth and Job. In Jonah, we find YHWH telling Jonah to go preach to the Assyrians (again, this is not a literal story, but rather another Didactic Narrative, please dont take the whole fish thing literal! Its sad so many people get caught up on that when its such a small part of the story.) Anyways, this book was edited to show that YHWH didnt want isolation but rather to go out to the nations. Ruth is a combat against Ezra and Nehemiahs radical nationalism in that Ruth was a Moabite, and the editor of the book even goes as far as to show that Ruth is in the lineage of David! What a smack in the face of the nationalistic believers, eh?!

And then there is Job. I know I took a long round about way of getting here, but now you can see the historical context and occasion of the book. This book was written to challenge the deuteronomical principle. We see Job, a pillar of deuteronomical living, being punished (seemingly) by YHWH. That is why, for the vast majority of the book, he gets railed by his friends for being a sinner. There must be something he is doing that is causing him to break covenant with YHWH. We see at the end of the book, when YHWH shows up, he tells Job that his friends were wrong, and the real reason for Jobs troubles have nothing to do with breaking covenant, so in that we see the theological point of view of the Jewish editors.

So there you have Job in a nutshell. It is intellectually dishonest to use the book of Job as so many Christians and non-Christians have over the years. When you see it in its proper historical context, we can understand what it is and is not trying to tell us about God.

(Ezekiel 14:14) "And had these three men proved to be in the midst of it, Noah, Daniel and Job, they themselves because of their righteousness would deliver their soul, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah."

(Ezekiel 14:20) even were Noah, Daniel and Job in the midst of it, as I am alive, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, neither son nor daughter would they deliver; they themselves because of their righteousness would deliver their soul."

(James 5:11) Look! We pronounce happy those who have endured. YOU have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome Jehovah gave, that Jehovah is very tender in affection and merciful.................. i think Job was a real man along with Daniel and Noah,

ChrisP · May 16, 2006

Well... I'm going to weight in with my tiny 2c here, before leaving this thread alone. Seeing as scientific implications have been made...

Science without a practical application is not only self-validating but useless. Doctoring is practical, and therefore useful, insofar as the use of chemicals is limited. I used to just take drugs without questioning. Now I look at my prescriptions and head back to a chinese herbal site bookmarked in Mozilla, and find something with an active ingredient that does the same thing. Not only is it cheaper, you're giving your money to a local apothecary rather than some sodding billionaire.

Buttons* · May 16, 2006

ChrisP said:
Well... I'm going to weight in with my tiny 2c here, before leaving this thread alone. Seeing as scientific implications have been made...

Science without a practical application is not only self-validating but useless. Doctoring is practical, and therefore useful, insofar as the use of chemicals is limited. I used to just take drugs without questioning. Now I look at my prescriptions and head back to a chinese herbal site bookmarked in Mozilla, and find something with an active ingredient that does the same thing. Not only is it cheaper, you're giving your money to a local apothecary rather than some sodding billionaire.

...you aren't Christian, you shouldn't be participating

If maybe you'd like to tie this into how Christians should or should not attend doctors, then be my guest.

ChrisP · May 16, 2006

Buttons* said:
...you aren't Christian, you shouldn't be participating

If maybe you'd like to tie this into how Christians should or should not attend doctors, then be my guest.

"Christians should think for themselves"... which is my advice to anyone

Christ came with love, so you should love yourself by taking care of it as best as you can.

Defij · May 16, 2006

may said:
(Ezekiel 14:14) "And had these three men proved to be in the midst of it, Noah, Daniel and Job, they themselves because of their righteousness would deliver their soul, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah."

(Ezekiel 14:20) even were Noah, Daniel and Job in the midst of it, as I am alive, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, neither son nor daughter would they deliver; they themselves because of their righteousness would deliver their soul."

(James 5:11) Look! We pronounce happy those who have endured. YOU have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome Jehovah gave, that Jehovah is very tender in affection and merciful.................. i think Job was a real man along with Daniel and Noah,

Very interesting quotes there May. What does it mean though? Do you know the historical occaision and date of composition of the book of Ezekiel? And obviously the author of the book of James was looking back and using Job as a reference. No problem with that at all.

Defij · May 16, 2006

And May, I think you mean YHWH right? Not Jehovah.

may · May 17, 2006

Defij said:
Very interesting quotes there May. What does it mean though? Do you know the historical occaision and date of composition of the book of Ezekiel? And obviously the author of the book of James was looking back and using Job as a reference. No problem with that at all.

so Job was a litral man , just like Daniel and Noah , he was mentioned along with those other men because he was a real man, i think some think he wasnt real , but the bible tells us he was.
Look! We pronounce happy those who have endured. YOU have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome Jehovah gave, that Jehovah is very tender in affection and merciful. James 5;11

why doctors?

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