Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

Rick O'Shez · Feb 19, 2016

shmogie said:
We simply differ, anyone can change what they do.

People can't decide to stop being gay, or to stop being straight for that matter. Sexual orientation is no more a choice that gender or skin colour.

SkepticThinker · Feb 19, 2016

ben d said:
So who performs homosexual acts if not homosexuals?

Lots of heterosexuals perform acts that you would consider homosexual acts.

SkepticThinker · Feb 19, 2016

shmogie said:
Well, legally a person can be excluded for any reason, or no reason at all. it is called "freedom of association", but that is not what we are talking about. You propose a person was created to be a homosexual, I propose they were not. There you go

So you are asserting that homosexuality is a choice?

SkepticThinker · Feb 19, 2016

shmogie said:
I do not have any friends that smoke, nor do I associate with smokers, therefore, I am dehumanizing them, and practice bigotry against them. The Amish people associate with no one but members of their faith, so they are dehumanizing the rest of humanity and practicing bigotry against the world............... I could go on in the same vein for quite a while, but you practice selective indignation, the particular class of person you have deemed worthy of your protection is the person that is dehumanized because I choose not to have that class of person in my circle of friends. You don't care about smokers, nor the Amish, the weight of your righteousness is focused on demanding that my church accept homosexuals into fellowship, and having me make them my friends. What utter hypocrisy

Smoking is a choice. Homosexuality is not a choice.

Shadow Wolf · Feb 19, 2016

shmogie said:
As to the Amish, I know some Mennonites, a "diluted" form of the Amish,and they socialize and recreate with fellow believers primarily.

The Mennonites are completely different from the Amish, not at all a "diluted form," and they too get out and socialize with non-Mennonites. I went to school with several Mennonites, and there was no "Mennonite clique," (just as there were no Baptist or Catholic cliques) and I even once worked with a Mennonite who is also lesbian.

shmogie said:
We simply differ, anyone can change what they do.

Sexual orientation is not chosen, and you can't just say "I'm going to be gay today," or "I think I'll only have heterosexual contact this week" and expect it to actually work.

SkepticThinker · Feb 19, 2016

shmogie said:
We simply differ, anyone can change what they do. As to the Amish, I know some Mennonites, a "diluted" form of the Amish,and they socialize and recreate with fellow believers primarily. They also maintain the Biblical view of homosexuality

You can't change what you are though.
If you don't agree, then please change your eye color for us.

sojourner · Feb 19, 2016

shmogie said:
We simply differ, anyone can change what they do. As to the Amish, I know some Mennonites, a "diluted" form of the Amish,and they socialize and recreate with fellow believers primarily. They also maintain the Biblical view of homosexuality

Yes, I agree. However, I don't believe, from talking with (and counseling) homosexual persons, that they can just "not be" homosexual. Just like some can just not "be black," or Semitic. And it's really unfair to shun them, to guilt them, to treat them as "less than," for what they ARE.

shmogie · Feb 19, 2016

sojourner said:
Hogwash. You don't want to expend the energy to actually exegete the texts, because you're already convinced, and it's easier to just tell others that they're wrong and sinful. Because that's what you hear over and over again.

One last time, I am tired of typing this stuff out. First, throughout the New Testament marriage is discussed, it is ALWAYS between a man and woman, ALWAYS. Sex outside of marriage is the sin of fornication. In the Christian faith, as detailed in the Bible, same sex marriages are not authorized, they don't exist, they are never discussed, ALL marriage advice is directed husbands and wives, Deacons, Elders, and Bishops must be the husband of one wife. Sex outside of marriage is a sin, since people of the same sex cannot be married, any sexual act between them is a sin."For even the women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful" " God gave them over to a debased minds to do those things which are not fitting" Romans 1: 26-28 NKJV " I wrote to you not to keep company with sexually immoral people" I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother who is sexually immoral..................not even to eat with such a person. For what do I have to do with judging a person outside ? Do you not judge those who are inside ? But those who are outside God judges" 1 Corinthians 5: 10-11 " Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor drunkards, nor extortioners.............will inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Corinthians 6: 10-11 "Flee sexual immorality" ibid. verse 18 Keep in mind that the Torah, which is not applicable to Christians, but has historical value, called for the death of homosexuals.. I am not telling anyone they are wrong or sinful. First, as Paul makes clear, I have no business judging anyone outside the Church. Within the Church, homosexuality is unacceptable, period. I don;'t say this, I didn't make this up, I have chosen a standard to live by, and that standard is clear and unambiguous. As to your imputed characteristics of "bigotry" and "discrimination" and we might as well add hate since if you haven't said it, you no doubt have thought, YOUR judgemental attitude leads you to fallacious imaginings and conclusions. By that standard I live by I am to treat all persons with respect, kindness, and dignity. I recognize that any persons sin is no worse than my own, and I am no better than anyone else, therefore to hate a sinner is hating myself, my family, my friends. I cannot judge a person's relationship with God. I can judge actions as they relate to me, in the very focused context of the Church.

viole · Feb 19, 2016

shmogie said:
One last time, I am tired of typing this stuff out. First, throughout the New Testament marriage is discussed, it is ALWAYS between a man and woman, ALWAYS. Sex outside of marriage is the sin of fornication. In the Christian faith, as detailed in the Bible, same sex marriages are not authorized, they don't exist, they are never discussed, ALL marriage advice is directed husbands and wives, Deacons, Elders, and Bishops must be the husband of one wife. Sex outside of marriage is a sin, since people of the same sex cannot be married, any sexual act between them is a sin."For even the women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful" " God gave them over to a debased minds to do those things which are not fitting" Romans 1: 26-28 NKJV " I wrote to you not to keep company with sexually immoral people" I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother who is sexually immoral..................not even to eat with such a person. For what do I have to do with judging a person outside ? Do you not judge those who are inside ? But those who are outside God judges" 1 Corinthians 5: 10-11 " Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor drunkards, nor extortioners.............will inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Corinthians 6: 10-11 "Flee sexual immorality" ibid. verse 18 Keep in mind that the Torah, which is not applicable to Christians, but has historical value, called for the death of homosexuals.. I am not telling anyone they are wrong or sinful. First, as Paul makes clear, I have no business judging anyone outside the Church. Within the Church, homosexuality is unacceptable, period. I don;'t say this, I didn't make this up, I have chosen a standard to live by, and that standard is clear and unambiguous. As to your imputed characteristics of "bigotry" and "discrimination" and we might as well add hate since if you haven't said it, you no doubt have thought, YOUR judgemental attitude leads you to fallacious imaginings and conclusions. By that standard I live by I am to treat all persons with respect, kindness, and dignity. I recognize that any persons sin is no worse than my own, and I am no better than anyone else, therefore to hate a sinner is hating myself, my family, my friends. I cannot judge a person's relationship with God. I can judge actions as they relate to me, in the very focused context of the Church.

Do you have good friends that had sex outside of marriage, or are divorced, etc?

Ciao

- viole

shmogie · Feb 19, 2016

SkepticThinker said:
You can't change what you are though.
If you don't agree, then please change your eye color for us.

I could get colored contacts if changing my eye color is important to you, and I wanted to grant you what is important to y. Any person has the ability to refrain from any act. You maintain that a person is "born, and IS a homosexual" incapable of being anything else. Even if this were true, they can still refrain from the act if they choose to. I had a cousin, who had homosexual tendencies and acted on them. He became a Christian, and chose to live a celibate life, because it was very important to him not to commit an act he considered sinful. He may have slipped back on occasion, I don't know and I don't care, we all commit our own particular sin of choice or inclination in moments of weakness, the point is, he did not demand that his church accept him into membership while he was living a flagrant homosexual lifestyle. He and I spoke a few days before his death and his faith was strong. You won';t alter my view, and I won't alter yours, so we can play this game till the end of time. Henceforth you may debate yourself on this issue, continued participation by me serves no purpose

shmogie · Feb 19, 2016

viole said:
Do you have good friends that had sex outside of marriage, or are divorced, etc?

Ciao

- viole

Of course. We are all sinners, just different sins, sins can be forgiven. However, I would cease association with, say, a married man living apart from his wife with his girlfriend. He might be my best friend, and his choices don't change my feelings toward him, but I live by a standard that requires the separation. If he repents and returns to his wife, or at least lives apart from his girlfriend and gives no one any cause to identify him as an an adulterer, our friendship begins where it left off. Sin is not the issue, the issue is a flagrant, unrepentant, lifestyle of sin

Shadow Wolf · Feb 19, 2016

shmogie said:
I could get colored contacts if changing my eye color is important to you

That's like saying wearing a blue shirt and blue jeans makes you blue.

shmogie said:
we all commit our own particular sin of choice or inclination in moments of weakness

If your god is loving, then why would he have made love a sin?

shmogie said:
He might be my best friend, and his choices don't change my feelings toward him, but I live by a standard that requires the separation.

So, instead of helping your friend, you'd just ditch him?

viole · Feb 19, 2016

shmogie said:
Of course. We are all sinners, just different sins, sins can be forgiven. However, I would cease association with, say, a married man living apart from his wife with his girlfriend. He might be my best friend, and his choices don't change my feelings toward him, but I live by a standard that requires the separation. If he repents and returns to his wife, or at least lives apart from his girlfriend and gives no one any cause to identify him as an an adulterer, our friendship begins where it left off. Sin is not the issue, the issue is a flagrant, unrepentant, lifestyle of sin

Would that be the same if you lost your faith tomorrow?

Ciao

- viole

shmogie · Feb 19, 2016

sojourner said:
Yes, I agree. However, I don't believe, from talking with (and counseling) homosexual persons, that they can just "not be" homosexual. Just like some can just not "be black," or Semitic. And it's really unfair to shun them, to guilt them, to treat them as "less than," for what they ARE.

I don't guilt them, I don't treat them as less than anything. If they feel guilt, the conviction comes from God, not me.I to have counseled homosexuals, and assured them of Gods love for them and his mercy toward them. I have assured them that any sin they may have committed God will forgive, I have assured them that their sin is no worse than mine or anyone else's.But I have also told them that certain acts (sins), are proscribed by God in the Bible, which is his communication with humanity. Habitually and flagrantly committing those acts will deny them church membership. They are welcome to attend any and all functions of the Church, but they cannot participate in Communion or Baptism. As to shunning, I don't think that that is Christian or acceptable. Shunners do not speak to, or even acknowledge a persons existence, They exclude the shunned from every activity. I nor my Church shuns anyone.

shmogie · Feb 19, 2016

viole said:
Would that be the same if you lost your faith tomorrow?

Ciao

- viole

I think probably not. When I was an agnostic, I did many many things I try very hard not to do now. I had some friends during that time who didn';t want to continue our friendship once I became a Christian

shmogie · Feb 19, 2016

Shadow Wolf said:
That's like saying wearing a blue shirt and blue jeans makes you blue.

If your god is loving, then why would he have made love a sin?

So, instead of helping your friend, you'd just ditch him?

In the Greek, there are four types of love, identified by different words, physical love, romantic love, love for family, and the love of a friend, of which are you speaking ? God didn';t make any love a sin. As to my friend, how do you propose I "help" him ? I can tell him what he is doing is wrong, discuss it with him if he chooses, but that is about all the help I can give

Shadow Wolf · Feb 19, 2016

shmogie said:
I don't treat them as less than anything.

Saying you won't associate with them and that you're best friend can't be gay is treating them as "less than."

Shadow Wolf · Feb 19, 2016

shmogie said:
In the Greek, there are four types of love, identified by different words, physical love, romantic love, love for family, and the love of a friend, of which are you speaking ?

I am aware of the concepts of eros, phileo, agape, and storge (more people than just Christians study these things). As is with heterosexual love, homosexual love, as we understand the term in English, would include agape, eros, and sometimes degrees of Phileo (particularly romantic relationships that begin as friendships). And your terms are not quite accurate. Agape is the deep unconditional love that accepts someone as they are and sees past any flaws; Eros is comparable to our English concept of a romantic love; Phileo is platonic love, such as with a good friend ; Storge is love of family such as a parent's love for their child.

shmogie said:
As to my friend, how do you propose I "help" him ? I can tell him what he is doing is wrong, discuss it with him if he chooses, but that is about all the help I can give

'Tis better than nothing. Friends help each other, not abandon them at the first signs of trouble.

shmogie · Feb 19, 2016

Shadow Wolf said:
Saying you won't associate with them and that you're best friend can't be gay is treating them as "less than."

I disagree, no surprise there. If I choose not to associate with homosexuals, I am not "treating" them in any capacity., To treat someone in any way requires an interaction between they and me. If I am not there to interact, there is no treatment. Why is my association so valuable to homosexuals anyway ? Do you think they stand around wishing I was with them ? I have had none seek me out and come up to me asking for me to participate in one of their parades or anything else. Why is it so important to you for me to have homosexual friends ? I serioiusly doubt that any are missing me or pining away from my absence. If it is not important to them, nor me, why is it to you ?

shmogie · Feb 19, 2016

Shadow Wolf said:
I am aware of the concepts of eros, phileo, agape, and storge (more people than just Christians study these things). As is with heterosexual love, homosexual love, as we understand the term in English, would include agape, eros, and sometimes degrees of Phileo (particularly romantic relationships that begin as friendships). And your terms are not quite accurate. Agape is the deep unconditional love that accepts someone as they are and sees past any flaws; Eros is comparable to our English concept of a romantic love; Phileo is platonic love, such as with a good friend ; Storge is love of family such as a parent's love for their child.

'Tis better than nothing. Friends help each other, not abandon them at the first signs of trouble.

Very good ! I commend you on your Greek. I don';t propose "abandoning" a friend. in trouble, I am required to cease association with a friend knowingly and flagrantly living in sin

Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

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