which comes first? relationship or the good book.

angellous_evangellous said:

I just typed a huge response to this and lost it.

Jesus doesn't need different versions... we do.

In short, we need new translations because the original and secondary languages are constantly in flux.

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I hate that when that happens!!! No hurry I won't make any replies to this entry......unless you decide not to try to reconstruct your long entry.

Ironically buddhism doesn't have a God.

True. Which is why I chose it as a neutral metaphor.

robtex said:

I hate that when that happens!!! No hurry I won't make any replies to this entry......unless you decide not to try to reconstruct your long entry.

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I will reconstruct it if you want more explanation as to how language flux necesitates more Bible translations/versions.

angellous_evangellous said:

Ironically buddhism doesn't have a God.

True. Which is why I chose it as a neutral metaphor.

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Lets take it as a neutral metaphor. Lets say you and I over, lunch say, "hey Buddhism needs a god !" How would we accomplish that.? Would we telepathically talk to Jesus, tell him Buddhism doesn't have a God and we need him to change their hearts through their mediations or would we move geographically near buddhists, take their religion, like nirvana and reincarnation and rewrite it with the slight aboration of a divine being and try to present it to those we thought we could influence.

What I have learned from reading about religions is if they are in a similar area and time period they are very apt to draw from other faiths around them. What solidifies that is agreement and in modern times printed text.

angellous_evangellous said:

I will reconstruct it if you want more explanation as to how language flux necesitates more Bible translations/versions.

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Your call. If you would enjoy doing so than do so. I am about to leave though so if you decide to repost (and this debate is moving fast so may not be practical right now) I can't touch it till later tonight.

robtex said:

Lets take it as a neutral metaphor. Lets say you and I over, lunch say, "hey Buddhism needs a god !" How would we accomplish that.? Would we telepathically talk to Jesus, tell him Buddhism doesn't have a God and we need him to change their hearts through their mediations or would we move geographically near buddhists, take their religion, like nirvana and reincarnation and rewrite it with the slight aboration of a divine being and try to present it to those we thought we could influence.

What I have learned from reading about religions is if they are in a similar area and time period they are very apt to draw from other faiths around them. What solidifies that is agreement and in modern times printed text.

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I would point out that Mahayana Buddhism already did it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism#Mahayana_and_tantric_mystical_doctrines

I would also demonstrate that you're abusing the metaphor.

(and I am not debating the importance of literature)

I know that I need the Word.

I couldn't continue to grow with Christ if I didn't stay in the Word.

I think the purpose of the Bible is to better understand God WHILE we establish a relationship with God.

To me, the Word is living...the Holy Spirit speaks to me via the Word.

robtex said:

Pete, if you notice in your qoute you said, NIV. New International version. Why, if there is only one Jesus does he need different versions of his work?

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He didn't. He left us with only two laws and we seemed to have complicated everything. I use NIV to indicate which translation (copyrighted, I believe) I used.

But the REAL work is done by the Spirit.

I Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 7 And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. NIV

Too often we want to STUDY to understand God, but our understanding only comes as we obey God and he allows us to understand. This is grace: becoming more like God. Reciting scriptures will not get you into heaven: grace will. Understanding the Greek will not get you into heaven: grace will. You see, growing in God's Grace means becoming more loving. This verse will help elaborate it:

I Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. NIV

I have often written about those who draw "spiritual lines" in the sand where God never intended them to be drawn. They claim to speak for God and yet they deny his power: the Holy Spirit. Only the Spirit can help you to fathom the mysteries of God. Once you are controlled by the Spirit, you can start to see the unity in the message.

II Corinthians 3:15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. NIV

I Corinthians 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. NIV

NetDoc said:

The scriptures disagree with this. [/color]

II Peter 2:19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. NIV

The church was never meant to replace the Holy Spirit. While much of the Scriptures are more a blog telling us how man has tried to find God, I fully believe that the Spirit controlled what was written to inspire faith.

Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" NIV

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The prophets were the Church.

I am not arguing that the Bible is the testimony of the Church to the exclusion of its nature as prophesy from the Holy Spirit.

My understanding of the Church is that it is the Body of Christ, with Jesus himself as the Head, revealing Himself to the Church in prophesy.

dawny0826 said:

I know that I need the Word.

I couldn't continue to grow with Christ if I didn't stay in the Word.

I think the purpose of the Bible is to better understand God WHILE we establish a relationship with God.

To me, the Word is living...the Holy Spirit speaks to me via the Word.

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That's fine. there is no rule about how "Things should be done"; if that is the right way for you, then good for you, and may the Bible provide you with all the answers. Although NetDoc is very much more educated in theology and Bibliology than I, I notice his continuing message that "Love one another" is the basic tenet of Christianity; which is what I believe.

For those of us who are ignorant, haven't the ability to learn, nor understand, I am sure that God would not exclude us from Christianity. Had I started studying the Bible when I was young, I might well have understood it better; now, I haven't even the concentration to read a good book one of my sons brought me for Christmas, on the subject of the human brain (which is something that fascinates me).

michel said:

That's fine. there is no rule about how "Things should be done"; if that is the right way for you, then good for you, and may the Bible provide you with all the answers. Although NetDoc is very much more educated in theology and Bibliology than I, I notice his continuing message that "Love one another" is the basic tenet of Christianity; which is what I believe.

For those of us who are ignorant, haven't the ability to learn, nor understand, I am sure that God would not exclude us from Christianity. Had I started studying the Bible when I was young, I might well have understood it better; now, I haven't even the concentration to read a good book one of my sons brought me for Christmas, on the subject of the human brain (which is something that fascinates me).

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It's actually the spirit speaking via the Bible. I can't describe how many times, I've opened my Bible in prayer and the Holy Spirit guides and directs me to something that I never noticed before...sometimes it's simplistic...sometimes it's complex and profound...and things in my life are brought into focus...questions answered...

And I assure you...I'll never know all the answers.

I don't disagree that "love one another" is one of the basic fundamentals of Christianity. And I would never label you as ignorant either.

But all this implies that you must have a relationship with god, have his laws to be moral. This implies that Atheists are not as moral as Christians. I find this far from the truth. Look at the prisons. Atheists in prison are much less then the population in general, where are Christians in prison are greater then the population. And pagans have been around longer then any religion.

jeffrey said:

But all this implies that you must have a relationship with god, have his laws to be moral. This implies that Atheists are not as moral as Christians. I find this far from the truth. Look at the prisons. Atheists in prison are much less then the population in general, where are Christians in prison are greater then the population. And pagans have been around longer then any religion.

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I agree that Christianity has consistently failed ethically and morally. However, we should expect there to be a larger number of Christians than Atheists in every area of society (prisons, colleges, hospitals, etc) where they hopelessly outnumber Atheists in the general population.