The despised Cross of Christ

buddhist · Feb 17, 2016

InChrist said:
Thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate you bringing up James and Paul. So many seem to think they were in disagreement. I don't really see that, though and consider rather that their perspectives and writings complemented each other. Paul's teachings concentrate on our justification through Christ, while James’ teachings concentrate on the works that exemplify that justification.

You seem to be trying to reconcile Paul and James by stating that "faith leads to justification which leads to salvation which results in good works". I used to reconcile it

Yet James is stating "works justify a man" ... not "as a result of justification, works become evident".

Works - for James - comes before justification, not after justification (as you seem to reinterpret him).

roger1440 · Feb 18, 2016

metis said:
The key word above is the word "in", and why that's so important is that Jesus' main message was really a call to action, not p.c. belief. The "Sermon in the Mount", for example, was a motivational speech for people to get off their duffs and actually do something to help others. Jesus' "Parable of the Sheep & Goats" condemns the idea that belief alone is enough, as the "goats" believe about Jesus but not in Jesus.

Luther did Christianity a great disservice when he cherry-picked Paul's writings and came out with his "saved by faith alone" doctrine, which Paul actually denied if one reads his epistles in their entirety. What it has done is to create a whole segment of the population that think they can do anything and that it doesn't really matter what they do in the eyes of God because they have this p.c. belief about Jesus-- "I'm saved!". As Gandhi said about them: "They elevated the man and forgot his message".

I guess my memory isn’t all that bad after all. It’s been nearly 30 years since I read this.

Martin Luther's Definition of Faith:

An excerpt from

"An Introduction to St. Paul's Letter to the Romans,"

Luther's German Bible of 1522

by Martin Luther, 1483-1546

“…Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever….”

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt

metis · Feb 18, 2016

InChrist said:
I actually don't think I have any disagreement with you over the parable itself or its injunction to the importance of demonstrating active love to others, even the least among us. I think faith spoken of in the Bible is faith that expresses itself through love ... For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.(Galatians 5:5-6). Love is the work of faith; it cannot be inoperative. Where we may disagree is that I don't believe works alone (especially religious works, rituals, rules or otherwise meant to make oneself right with God) can save anyone. Yet, if there are no works revealing and demonstrating the flow of God's love to others present in one’s life, then, there must be something not right with one’s faith. Love is the work of faith, and when love is absent, then, this absence betrays an inadequacy of the faith.
Thanks again for sharing your perspective. It helps me to try to see the view of another and also consider, think, pray, and understand my own more clearly.

I never stated nor implied that "works alone" could "save" anyone.

However, good works (active compassion for others) is not an option but a requirement:
Matt.7[16] You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?[20] Thus you will know them by their fruits.

metis · Feb 18, 2016

roger1440 said:
I guess my memory isn’t all that bad after all. It’s been nearly 30 years since I read this.

Martin Luther's Definition of Faith:

An excerpt from

"An Introduction to St. Paul's Letter to the Romans,"

Luther's German Bible of 1522

by Martin Luther, 1483-1546

“…Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever….”

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt

Yep, and that was the conclusion of a joint Lutheran/Catholic commission comparing this issue about three decades ago. Unfortunately, Luther all too often didn't live up to what he taught, but I guess we are all guilty of that.

InChrist · Feb 18, 2016

buddhist said:
You seem to be trying to reconcile Paul and James by stating that "faith leads to justification which leads to salvation which results in good works". I used to reconcile it

Yet James is stating "works justify a man" ... not "as a result of justification, works become evident".

Works - for James - comes before justification, not after justification (as you seem to reinterpret him).

Yes, I do think that both Paul and James were in complete agreement that faith leads to justification/salvation and then good works follow and show the reality of this saving faith.
I think it is important to realize that Paul was speaking of those good works that an unsaved person tries to do in order to win God’s favor or work his way to heaven. James on the other hand, speaking to his brethren (Jewish believers in Christ) was referring to those good works that a saved person performs which gives evidence of a real, living, saving faith.
James does not teach that good works are necessary in order to gain salvation and Paul never teaches that good works are unnecessary after a person is saved. On the contrary, Paul agreed with James that for the person justified by faith, good works are essential (Phil. 2:12-13; Titus 3:5-8; Eph. 2:8-10). Likewise, James agreed with Paul that the only condition for inheriting the kingdom was faith and faith alone (see James 2:5 and also Acts 15 where at the Jerusalem Council James never expressed disagreement over Paul’s teaching that salvation was by faith and not by the works of the law).

InChrist · Feb 18, 2016

metis said:
I never stated nor implied that "works alone" could "save" anyone.

However, good works (active compassion for others) is not an option but a requirement:
Matt.7[16] You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?[20] Thus you will know them by their fruits.

Thank you for clarifying. I guess we are in agreement.

InChrist · Feb 18, 2016

vaguelyhumanoid said:
Imagine a state run by a military dictator. This dictator provides everything and creates a utopia on earth - for those who agree with him. Those who hold differing political or religious views are sent to a prison camp to be physically and mentally tortured around the clock for 50 years. What would the international reaction to this state be? Horror and disgust around the world; maybe the threat of military intervention.

Now, imagine the same thing, but the dissenters are tortured forever. The entire length of time the universe existed, and beyond - regardless of whether their deeds are good or evil. This is an infinitely worse crime, and yet many believers in an eternal hell accept it as the behavior of not only a morally good being, but the most morally good being imaginable.

Who would you rather see in Heaven - Gandhi (a lifelong non-Christian) or Jeffrey Dahmer (who accepted Christ while in prison)?

I don't think a human military dictator analogy is a relevant or realistic comparison to the Creator of heaven and earth. As far as, Gandhi or Jeffery Dahmer are concerning I will not choose between two such extreme high profile examples, or anyone for that matter. I will simply be glad to see whomever God allows into heaven because He alone knows the motives and sincerity of each person and their true response to Christ.

1137 · Feb 18, 2016

@InChrist

I wouldn't say I despise the cross, but I do think a deity who treats natural and positive things as evil is a questionable god at best.

vaguelyhumanoid · Feb 18, 2016

InChrist said:
I don't think a human military dictator analogy is a relevant or realistic comparison to the Creator of heaven and earth.

What's the difference if the behavior is exactly the same? Is it just that one created you and the other didn't? OK, let's change the analogy a bit. Let's say it's your dad. Imagine that your dad loves you by his own admission, but he'll lock you in a basement and torture you for 50 years if you follow a different belief system than him.

Yoshua · Feb 18, 2016

wizanda said:
That follows Paul's Pharisaic Christianity, and shows you're not following Yeshua in the slightest....

Where did Yeshua say anything about dying with him on the cross?

Hi Wizanda,

Rom. 6:8-10
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

What is wrong if Christians say they died with Christ? Did Jesus commands to baptize in His name?

Rom. 6:1-4
1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

wizanda said:
Where did Yeshua say place faith in him or his death?

Luke 7:50
And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Matt. 8:26
26. And He said to them, "Why are you timid, you men of little faith?" Then He arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and it became perfectly calm.

Luke 17:6
6. And the Lord said, "If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, `Be uprooted and be planted in the sea'; and it would obey you.

I don’ t think Jesus do not like to have faith in Him.

wizanda said:
The scriptures aren't finished, that is only stated in the made up gospel of John.

Where did you get the notion that the Scriptures aren’t finished? If this is not finished, what is the problem with it?

wizanda said:
Why would you become a new creation, by making a covenant with death?

John 3:3
3. Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

2 Cor. 5:17
17. Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Thanks

Yoshua · Feb 18, 2016

metis said:
Luther was a troubled man who really desired assurance that he was saved, and his insistence that one is "saved by faith and faith alone" was that assurance. An excellent biography on him is "Here I Stand".

Hi Metis,

So do you think that Christian is saved by faith?

Thanks

Yoshua · Feb 18, 2016

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
God didn't preach the gospel, so this did not come from Him.

Hi Kelly,

If God did not preach the gospel, what is the connection of sending His Son Jesus Christ to propagate the word of the Father?

Thanks

Yoshua · Feb 18, 2016

vaguelyhumanoid said:
Who would you rather see in Heaven - Gandhi (a lifelong non-Christian) or Jeffrey Dahmer (who accepted Christ while in prison)?

Hi Vague,

This will all boils down to who is the deity who could bring salvation and be with God forever.

Thanks

Yoshua · Feb 18, 2016

vaguelyhumanoid said:
What's the difference if the behavior is exactly the same? Is it just that one created you and the other didn't? OK, let's change the analogy a bit. Let's say it's your dad. Imagine that your dad loves you by his own admission, but he'll lock you in a basement and torture you for 50 years if you follow a different belief system than him.

Hi Vague,

This analogy or example proves only one thing that the love of a human being is far from the love of God. The Bible said that God gave His love to mankind to save us and not to torture.

Thanks

metis · Feb 18, 2016

Yoshua said:
Hi Metis,

So do you think that Christian is saved by faith?

Thanks

Hello.

No, I don't.

Thanks for asking.

JoStories · Feb 19, 2016

InChrist said:
I believe the gospel is the "good news" of the historical event of Christ's death on the cross, burial, and resurrection to save and redeem human beings for eternity.

I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you -- unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day... 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

In the world where humanist mindset prevails that all are inherently good the cross is despised because it is contrary to such thinking and confronts human pride and the sinfulness of human nature. In today's market-driven or contemplative churches , this gospel is overshadowed by an enticing counterfeit gospel. In the place of the cross, many of today's most popular churches are celebrating their visible "good deeds" -- the kind of "works" and ethical or spiritual living that draw man's applause, not God's approval. [Galatians 1:10] People prefer to feel good about themselves and think they can earn their pardon from sin, their place in heaven, or attain their own spiritual advancement. The pseudo-Christian groups that claim to accept the Bible and Christ are no different in that they, too, even while acknowledging Christ's death, despise the cross as insufficient and needing the addition their own efforts, rules, rituals, and "good works".

But the scriptures point to the work of Christ alone; His death on the cross and resurrection to new life as complete and sufficient.

"God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." Galatians 6:14
Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25

Whoever you are, whatever you believe, do you despise or embrace what the cross of Jesus Christ represents?

"The Cross" is actually an older precept borrowed from older faiths and Paganism. For example, the crux ansata from the ancient Egyptians, predating Christianity by far. It is also associated with the ancient God Tammuz, from ancient Chaldea (what was later known as Babylon). Then there is the Celts cross and the Norse God's Thor with his hammer. All of which predate your faith. Just an FYI.

InChrist · Feb 19, 2016

JoStories said:
"The Cross" is actually an older precept borrowed from older faiths and Paganism. For example, the crux ansata from the ancient Egyptians, predating Christianity by far. It is also associated with the ancient God Tammuz, from ancient Chaldea (what was later known as Babylon). Then there is the Celts cross and the Norse God's Thor with his hammer. All of which predate your faith. Just an FYI.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and the history lesson on the cross, but I was specifically referring to the cross of Christ and what this stands for; His death to pay for the sins of the world and resurrection to offer new life to all who believe.

InChrist · Feb 19, 2016

1137 said:
@InChrist

I wouldn't say I despise the cross, but I do think a deity who treats natural and positive things as evil is a questionable god at best.

Thanks for posting your perspective. I suppose I believe that the God who is the infinite, eternal Creator understands what is evil.

InChrist · Feb 19, 2016

vaguelyhumanoid said:
What's the difference if the behavior is exactly the same? Is it just that one created you and the other didn't? OK, let's change the analogy a bit. Let's say it's your dad. Imagine that your dad loves you by his own admission, but he'll lock you in a basement and torture you for 50 years if you follow a different belief system than him.

I just cannot agree that the behavior of the infinite, eternal, all-knowing Creator God who is Love, is at all the same as a human dictator. I think such a comparison is nothing more than your own imagination and does not even line up in any respect with the God who has revealed Himself in the scriptures.

vaguelyhumanoid · Feb 19, 2016

InChrist said:
I just cannot agree that the behavior of the infinite, eternal, all-knowing Creator God who is Love, is at all the same as a human dictator. I think such a comparison is nothing more than your own imagination and does not even line up in any respect with the God who has revealed Himself in the scriptures.

"Nuh-uh" isn't a logical argument. Do you believe that there are people right now who are being tortured in hell for not believing the gospel?

And as for the scriptures, there's a lot of examples of some pretty horrid stuff in there. A country governed by Biblical literalist law would look awfully similar to Daesh or Saudi Arabia.

The despised Cross of Christ

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