Has Christianity Been Changed?

Unedited said:

Christianity (both what it is, and what it means) has changed in the last few decades, as it has changed since it began. Today's Christians may have gotten the reputation of being bigots, but they don't have a reputation of burning people at the stakes, so things are better than they could be.

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Valuing bigotry, IMHO, might very well be the first step people take towards burning others.

Jerrell said:

Christianity is being Christ like. The Tradition held by those who practice it may vary but being christian has always been the same, look at it, it's in the Bible. If you beleive in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you're Christian, how you further do things is up to you, but Christianity is simply living as Jesus would wish you to live.

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Being Christian is complete by being a living example to everyone, everyday and in every instance... Praise Jesus !!! :shout

Sunstone said:

Here's a post from another thread that it would be off topic to discuss in that thread, but which I wonder if anyone wants to discuss as a seperate thread:

Great post, Jeffery!

I'm old enough that I can remember growing up when the word "Christian" almost never was used to mean a self-righteous, hateful, bigoted person. Instead, it was a term of praise which meant, among many other good things, a person who had taken Jesus's teachings on love to heart and humbly expressed love for their "neighbors". That is, for anyone who came their way. In my small town, we all knew who the real Christians were, and it was even a source of community pride that they were among us. Folks like Michel remind me of that earlier definition of "Christian", but overall, things have sure changed, eh?

A while ago, one of the local papers ran a quote from James Dobson, something he said close the start of his ministry in the 1970's. It went more or less like this, "We're going to take the kid gloves off. We're going to show the world that Christians aren't little old ladies who love everyone and can be run over by everyone. We're going to show them Christians have a fist of iron." That's the best I can remember what he said, and I wish I'd saved the quote, but I didn't. It completely struck me at the time, though, how contemptuous he was of that old defininition of "Christian", and how thirsty he was to prove it wasn't true.

I think since the 1970's, folks like Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, and many, many others have done an excellent job foisting their view of what it means to be a Christian on Americans. But I think Christianity as a whole in America has suffered for it. Jesus's message of love has been replaced with the Ten Commandments and more emphasis on hellfire and heaven than love, and I'm not even sure Jesus himself would approve of that distortion. I've heard young people in Colorado Springs tell me that loving your neighbor means loving other Christians, and even then they don't mean everyone who professes to be Christian, but just the ones they deem to be true Christians. If that's the future of Christian love, then Christian love is becoming spiritually incestuous.

To me, the most vocal "Christian" leaders of today have made a strategic mistake. A religion based on an ideology of "showing the world it has an iron fist" is a religion that is deeply, profoundly spiritually bankrupt.

Comments?

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I have to keep reminding myself that things are different in the States. Even so, I can see what you mean, and I guess you are right.

Why? most likely because the 'Church' are loosing followers who, for some reason or other, can't follow the dictates of the Church, because they seem to have become outdated, and no longer relevant.

The immediate example that springs to mind is the Roman Catholic Church's stance on contraception. I understand the religious standpoint, I can even understand, and admire the reasons behind the rules.

What is harder to understand is that it has taken the majority of people in one nation to prove that no contaception means STDs; and those people will pay with their lives. If I can see how I would reconcile the problem (as in 'the lesser of the two evils'), I cannot understand why the church could not adapt. It seems almost as if the Churches are deluding themselves into thinking that people can be perfect.

Michel said:

It seems almost as if the Churches are deluding themselves into thinking that people can be perfect.

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I agree, Michel. I'd also add that the notion people can be perfect seems to me to amount in practice to a refussal to take responsibility for solving societal problems.

Sunstone said:

I agree, Michel. I'd also add that the notion people can be perfect seems to me to amount in practice to a refussal to take responsibility for solving societal problems.

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Frankly that has never occurred to me; if that is true, well..................I don't even want to think that way; it is too horrific a thought.

Sunstone said:

Here's a post from another thread that it would be off topic to discuss in that thread, but which I wonder if anyone wants to discuss as a separate thread:

Great post, Jeffery!

I'm old enough that I can remember growing up when the word "Christian" almost never was used to mean a self-righteous, hateful, bigoted person. Instead, it was a term of praise which meant, among many other good things, a person who had taken Jesus's teachings on love to heart and humbly expressed love for their "neighbors". That is, for anyone who came their way. In my small town, we all knew who the real Christians were, and it was even a source of community pride that they were among us. Folks like Michel remind me of that earlier definition of "Christian", but overall, things have sure changed, eh?

A while ago, one of the local papers ran a quote from James Dobson, something he said close the start of his ministry in the 1970's. It went more or less like this, "We're going to take the kid gloves off. We're going to show the world that Christians aren't little old ladies who love everyone and can be run over by everyone. We're going to show them Christians have a fist of iron." That's the best I can remember what he said, and I wish I'd saved the quote, but I didn't. It completely struck me at the time, though, how contemptuous he was of that old definition of "Christian", and how thirsty he was to prove it wasn't true.

I think since the 1970's, folks like Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, and many, many others have done an excellent job foisting their view of what it means to be a Christian on Americans. But I think Christianity as a whole in America has suffered for it. Jesus's message of love has been replaced with the Ten Commandments and more emphasis on hellfire and heaven than love, and I'm not even sure Jesus himself would approve of that distortion. I've heard young people in Colorado Springs tell me that loving your neighbor means loving other Christians, and even then they don't mean everyone who professes to be Christian, but just the ones they deem to be true Christians. If that's the future of Christian love, then Christian love is becoming spiritually incestuous.

To me, the most vocal "Christian" leaders of today have made a strategic mistake. A religion based on an ideology of "showing the world it has an iron fist" is a religion that is deeply, profoundly spiritually bankrupt.

Comments?

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I think a couple of things have happened in America, to cause this change. One, is that the republican party realized that they could not get themselves elected by being the party of the rich, which is essentially what they mostly were, and are. The rich are always going to be a smaller number of people even if they have most of the money. So the party went looking for those who could be lured away from voting for democrats, and they stumbled on a lot of very resentful, angry southern "super-Christians" who were feeling ignored by the democrats, by the north, by the media, and who were feeling disenfranchised and disrespected in general by the rest of America. Carl Rove, specifically, realized that he could "play" these people to his own advantage by exploiting their ignorance and prejudice and anger toward moderate Christians, northerners, the press, gays, and liberals of all kinds. One of the "dirty tricks" that Rove has used in every Bush Jr. election campaign has been to send people around to the most conservative churches in the area while they were in sunday services, and put flyers on all their cars telling outrageous lies about Bush's opponents - lies specifically intended to get these very conservative Christians enraged.

For example, when Bush ran for governor of Texas, the flyers that appeared on the cars at these very conservative churches accused his opponent of being a lesbian, and of promoting homosexuality. When the news media brought these flyers to light, Rove claimed he had no idea who made or distributed them (but he didn't disavow the lies in the, of course). When Bush was running in the primary against John McCain, the flyers were accusing McCain of having illegitimate children with a black women. These flyers were placed on cars in areas of the south where racism is still prevalent. Again Carl Rove denied any knowledge of who could have made and distributed them. Later, as we are all aware, when Bush ran against Kerry, Carl Rove dug up a man that had been paid by the Nixon people way back in the early 70's to slander John Kerry's military record, then, and was happy to get paid to do it all over again for Bush. We all saw the disgraceful result of that.

My point is that the republican party, specifically Carl Rove and George Bush, have been promoting and exploiting the worst inclinations of the most conservative and angry Christians among us for some 15 years, now, and this has had a big effect on the "face" of Christianity in general. As the republican party has stirred up and exacerbated religious Christian ignorance, prejudice, anger, resentment, and bigotry; and focussed it on their political enemies, they have in effect been condoning and supporting these character traits as though they were virtues.

And if this were not bad enough, at the same time Carl Rove was discovering that he could exploit the character flaws of these super-conservative southern Christians for republican political gain, various unscrupulous media moguls were discovering that they could use the same tricks to gain loyal listeners and viewers from all segments of America. Slandering all things liberal has became the "gravy train" of the moment for both the republican party and the more unscrupulous media/entertainment companies. And the result is that being rude, arrogant, dishonest, ignorant, inflammatory, and proud of it, has become very fashionable among right wing conservatives of any religion these days. All their deep seated anger and resentments have been brought to the surface, and encouraged to be expressed by these professional liars and exploiters in politics and the media.

Hubris is in fashion these days.

I have fought Christian bigots since I was in third grade.

There has been a war going on for the right to be "right" for a LONG time. Many of us are just now waking up to it. That doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Acts 28:21 They replied, "We have not received any letters from Judea concerning you, and none of the brothers who have come from there has reported or said anything bad about you. 22 But we want to hear what your views are, for we know that people everywhere are talking against this sect." NIV

Unfortunately, people want POWER. It's addictive. If they can use Christianity or a horrid form of it to GRAB this power, they surely will. Of course, they justify their arrogance with scriptures like:

Matthew 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. NIV

Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. NIV

The list can go on, but to use Christianity to SIEZE control of power is so perverted that it just boggles the imagination.

Luke 22:24 Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. NIV

NetDoc said:

I have fought Christian bigots since I was in third grade.

There has been a war going on for the right to be "right" for a LONG time. Many of us are just now waking up to it. That doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Acts 28:21 They replied, "We have not received any letters from Judea concerning you, and none of the brothers who have come from there has reported or said anything bad about you. 22 But we want to hear what your views are, for we know that people everywhere are talking against this sect." NIV

Unfortunately, people want POWER. It's addictive. If they can use Christianity or a horrid form of it to GRAB this power, they surely will. Of course, they justify their arrogance with scriptures like:

Matthew 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. NIV

Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. NIV

The list can go on, but to use Christianity to SIEZE control of power is so perverted that it just boggles the imagination.

Luke 22:24 Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. NIV

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Can we get this guy some frubals?

I'd also add that the notion people can be perfect seems to me to amount in practice to a refussal to take responsibility for solving societal problems.

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I would hardly level such an accusation without a sizable amount of data to back it up. The Catholic Church does an immense amount of charity work, and just because they utilize their spiritual and financial weight differently than you would does not mean they are not trying to fix 'societal problems.' They are well within their rights to pursue charity in a way that resonates with the Church's teachings.

Sunstone said:

I agree, Michel. I'd also add that the notion people can be perfect seems to me to amount in practice to a refussal to take responsibility for solving societal problems.

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By improving ourselves individually we in turn improve the society. As in building a foundation from stones. Each adds to the structural integrity of the whole.
My perception of perfection is slightly different than most. Not insinuating better, just different. Perfection to me is ones unrelenting ability to achieve Godliness. Since no one on earth is one hundred percent Godly, then it is safe to say that striving for it is probably the best humans can do. Being good to one another is not as hard as it sounds. It takes a lot of breathing time before responding to another views sometimes... Be Well and God Bless...

I think what people conceive as Christianity has changed. Preachers preach what will attract people. More people, more tithes. People give now to make themselves feel better. IMO, Christianity has become more selfish, more about themselves and less about others that might not agree with them.

evearael said:

I would hardly level such an accusation without a sizable amount of data to back it up. The Catholic Church does an immense amount of charity work, and just because they utilize their spiritual and financial weight differently than you would does not mean they are not trying to fix 'societal problems.' They are well within their rights to pursue charity in a way that resonates with the Church's teachings.

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I hadn't meant to imply that the Catholic Church fails across the board to take responsibility for societal problems. On the contrary, I thought it was implied in my post that I was only talking about actions of the Church which seem to presuppose a notion that people are perfect. Your point is well taken, Evearael, that the Church does immensely good and useful work in many areas.

However, I think it is unfair of you to suggest that I am inclined to believe I should be priviledged to dictate to them what their policies should be and how they should spend their money. I recognize the right of the Church to conduct its charities according to its teachings at least as much as you do.

Moreover, I think it is unfair of you to suggest that there is little or no data to back up my position that expecting people to be perfect amounts in some cases to a refussal to take responsibility for practical, workable solutions to societal problems. You might have asked what specifically I had in mind before responding to that.

In fact, what I had in mind was the Church's position on contraceptives, especially condoms, which I believe both shows that the Church expects more perfection of people than is reasonable, and that the Church is stubbornly against recognizing or addressing the consequences of an anti-condom campaigns on birth control and the spread of STDs. Lastly, there does seem to be an adequate body of scientific evidence suggesting that promoting codom use is a more practical and responsible position than abstaining from their use.

I'm sorry for the confusion, and I hope this helps to clear it up.

Mister_T said:

Can we get this guy some frubals?

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Well, Luke did get elevated to sainthood...isn't that even better than frubals?

jeffrey said:

I think what people conceive as Christianity has changed. Preachers preach what will attract people. More people, more tithes. People give now to make themselves feel better. IMO, Christianity has become more selfish, more about themselves and less about others that might not agree with them.

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You mean like every other aspect of our culture?

Booko said:

You mean like every other aspect of our culture?

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Look at the Amish. A throw back to older religion. A tornado came through Madisonville, ky last year. All the able bodied men from their community The next day were out rebuilding their members property that sustained damage. The other churches had to 'collect donations' which took months.

jeffrey said:

I think what people conceive as Christianity has changed. Preachers preach what will attract people. More people, more tithes. People give now to make themselves feel better. IMO, Christianity has become more selfish, more about themselves and less about others that might not agree with them.

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Again Jeffrey,

This dates back to AT LEAST the first century...

II Timothy 4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. NIV

II Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. NIV

There were Jerry Falwells and such back in the First Century. As Solomon so aptly put it: There is nothing new under the sun.

jeffrey said:

Look at the Amish. A throw back to older religion. A tornado came through Madisonville, ky last year. All the able bodied men from their community The next day were out rebuilding their members property that sustained damage. The other churches had to 'collect donations' which took months.

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I've commented here and there that we often think of charity in terms of cash, when hands to work might be of more use. I wonder if that isn't just a symptom of the morass of materialism we've fallen into.

One think in favor of the Amish, they have the ability to repair their own houses, because they built them in the first place. We, otoh, will pay $60 to an electrician to come fix a bum light switch. Well, I won't -- I do that myself, but I know plenty of people who have no idea how, so they call someone.

Booko said:

We, otoh, will pay $60 to an electrician to come fix a bum light switch. Well, I won't -- I do that myself, but I know plenty of people who have no idea how, so they call someone.

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Do they call YOU? If not, then why not?

Matthew 25:40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' NIV

NetDoc said:

Do they call YOU? If not, then why not?d

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No, they call me for yardwork.

Though I've changed the odd bum outlet for a neighbor while she put on the coffee pot.

Will work for

Matthew 25:40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' NIV

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jeffrey said:

Look at the Amish. A throw back to older religion. A tornado came through Madisonville, ky last year. All the able bodied men from their community The next day were out rebuilding their members property that sustained damage. The other churches had to 'collect donations' which took months.

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I watched countless hours of news on the Hurricanes in New Orleans last year. I only saw one lady in front of her house trying to clean up the rubble. Everyone wants to throw money at problems and let someone else do the dirty work. The Amish who did this and moved in against adversity deserve this...:clap :clap :clap Amen ...