Mykola said:
I try to understand the Bible - that's what I'm trying to do truly and sincerely.
When an Orthodox clergy condone with those incorrect doings, which is the case, I regard that as an aprroval. Perhaps they don't truly understand Orthodoxy too. Perhaps they don't read the Bible - not to be disappointed, you know...
If Orthodox clergy condone worshiping icons or saints then they are indeed deluded. However, I've yet to come across anyone who does. The sorts of beliefs you've mentioned are usually those of superstitious lay folk. They need correcting without a doubt but the Church most certainly does not approve of what they do.
And still wear robes of Orthodox 'priest', monks etc?
No, any such clergy (and monastics are not clergy, they are lay) should be censured and if necessary deposed. Such has happened in the past. Unfortunately, just because it looks wrong to your Protestant eyes doesn't mean it is so. You have yet to come up with any concrete evidence of clergy preaching heresy.
I can judge on the basis of what I can see. Those views are supported and in any way are overthrown by Orthodox clergy.
You can, but it is unwise. You are extrapolating from the actions of some individuals to the beliefs of the Church (which is a logical fallacy) and in fact you are judging based on your interpretation of what they are doing not necessarily what they actually are doing, unless you believe you can read the heart of a man, of course? I know I have no such power.
Images, representations, exactly as I said. There is a certain Gnostic dualism at work in some Protestant theologies where matter is seen as base or evil. That is what I see in your view - God couldn't possibly work through something so base as matter could He? Oh wait, what was the Incarnation all about then?
We have images of any Bible personages - in books for children, for instance - but we don't kneel before them! Nor we pray to them, let alone praying at all to Mary, mother of Jesus, or her husband Joseph ('St.Joseph') or etc.
How is kneeling worship? It is a sign of respect and said respect is given to the saint and the God who worked through them. You'll have to do better than that. Kneeling in order to honour someone is hardly a peculiarly religious practice. And we don't pray to saints, at least not in the way you mean. Asking them to pray for us is not prayer to them in the way that prayer to God is at all. You seem to be being wilfully ignorant here.
Agree on the second part - must not be worshiped - but they are.
No, they are not. Latreia (worship) is reserved for God alone. Anything else is strongly condemned by the Church. You are completely failing to understand the distinction between honour and worship. I'm not sure whether this is deliberate or not, but perhaps you could try to define what it is that you think constitutes worship?
Why do I need one? The Church pre-dates the Bible. And in the interests of fairness, do you have a counter-example. Because I can't find one (and I grew up Protestant so I'm not one of those Orthodox who has never read Scripture).
2. How in the world can you refer to anyone dead other than by praying to him?
By trusting that God is the God of the living not the dead and that through Him they can hear us. What makes you think that they cannot?
But it is worshiped! Why at all kneel before anyone's image? Do you remember what Peter said to Cornelius when the latter knelt before him (Acts 10)? What angel said to John when John wanted to kneel before him (Revelation 22:8-9)?
I've already answered this. It is a sign of respect and it is most particularly the respect due to God who works through the saints (living and deceased) of the Church. We don't suffer from the kind of dualism that regards matter as evil.
Ignorance? You must be kidding. This city is full of Orthodox temples and it wouldn't take me too long to one more time see the facts that support my knowledge.
The number of churches in your city does not preclude your ignorance. This city is full of mosques but I'd be the first to admit my ignorance of Islam. You leap to unwarranted conclusions and pass them off as fact rather than asking those who know better to explain. That is not just ignorance but arrogance and your misconceptions are evidence of your ignorance of Orthodoxy. All that remains to be answered is whether it is wilfull or unwitting.
And...
Of course all Orthodox say that they don't worship anyone except God. Of course they're saying that, and I'd wonder how could it be else than that.
If all of us tell you this then maybe you should pause for thought and wonder whether your impression is true or, rather, whether you have actually got the wrong end of the stick? I realise that actually accepting what we say at face value may be difficult for you, but unless you actually have some supernatural power to read the state of a man's mind or soul, what other choice do you have? Nobody is lying to you. We do not worship anyone other than God. You simply seem determined to refuse our explanations and seem to wish to wilfully cling to your blindness instead.
But --
There are no biblical support or example of even venerating icons and for praying to the dead.
The Orthodox are not sola scripturalists. That is a tradition of men unknown to the Church until the Reformation. The Church wrote the Bible, She was not founded on it. Scripture itself says not only that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth but also that not everything is contained in Scripture. If it weren't for our Church and our Holy Tradition you would have no Scripture to read.
Firstly, Who is the only One to be glorified, James?
Quit playing semantic games. Glorification is the term used by Orthodox where RCs use canonisation. It simply means that the Church has recognised their sanctity, nothing more. That is radically different from what you are suggesting even if the word appears the same on the surface. Words have many meanings and such a tack is dishonest to say the least.
Then, Nicholas II was proclaimed 'saint' by the Orthodox Church.
Does church decides on who is saint?
God made Christians a Kingdom of saints, and it doesn't require to be killed by atheists to be saint - rather living like a follower of Christ.
Thank you very much, James
What's more that isn't implied by being a saint?
I have a copy of the Bible and I'm able to investigate what does it mean and imply. Actually I've done that... I know who is
saint rather than who he isn't...
No he was recognised as a saint, not proclaimed, and it isn't required that anyone be martyred to be a saint. Huge numbers of Orthodox saints died natural deaths. All Christians are called to be Holy (saints, that's all the word means) but we don't necessarily have evidence - because we at least, can't see into a man's heart - of who is or is not true. All that the public recognition of a saint does is say that we have evidence and recognise it. There are certainly many saints with Christ who are not recognised in this way. Sainthood is not an elevation to some superhuman level and if you think that then your ignorance of our faith is quite telling.
I also find your confidence in your own ability to discern sanctity rather misplaced. Is humility not encouraged in your denomination?
Than why ask him, if you could ask any other Christian? Alive Christian, not deceased and buried long ago?
And how do you communicate with the dead? To ask someone you should communicate with the person - how d'you do that with Nicholas?
Any biblical examples of communicating with the dead (to ask them to intercede, for example)?
Because we know that the prayers of a righteous man are powerful (that is from Scripture) and who is more righteous than one that has attained the prize and is with God? I've answered the rest of this above. Your mutilated Bible will not contain the Maccabees so I can't point out where prayer for the dead is referenced in Scripture, but what do you make of the prayers of the saints in heaven (in the Apocalypse/Revelation)? What are they praying for if they are insensate as to what occurs here on earth?
Very unfortunately...
Yes... I am just a narrow-minded Christian who stuck to his Bible instead of listening to the people's teachings. Saint? Not a little idea, of course! The Bible doesn't say a word about such a complex matters. It is an Orthodox writings which are God-inspired, and they know it all...
The Scripture you use (at least before the Reformers mutilated it) is also an 'Orthodox writing' yet you accept that as inspired. You reject parts of Scripture that the Church had from the beginning as uninspired. What gives your denomination the power to make such decisions? You are narowmindedly Protestant, there is no doubt.
Friend, can you give a biblical overview on the topic of being saint?
By which you mean what? There is no difference between a recognised saint and an unrecognised Christian who has passed on. It is just a title that recognises their Christian faith. If you cannot understand that then you don't even know what a saint is in common parlance so how can I explain to you? And please don't ask me to proof-text Scripture. Adherence to the 'Bible alone' has contributed nothing to Christendom except a multitude of ever-splintering sects.
James
