• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Questions for Panentheists

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
There are lots of doubts about the specifics dealing with the BB, which includes causation, but I highly doubt it was self-assembled. And I also have doubts about it being cyclic (the "Big Crunch") because of our universe's relative uniformity (with one area of bulge, but that's to be expected even under singularity). I think it is likely that causation of our universe and maybe many others may well go back into infinity, as most cosmologists drift in that direction, but I doubt we'll ever know this as a fact.
Why do you doubt self-assembly? This explains expansion of the universe. The mass in our universe likely came from another universe (from the multi-verse).
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Why do you doubt self-assembly? This explains expansion of the universe. The mass in our universe likely came from another universe (from the multi-verse).
I think you'd have to explain what you mean by "self-assembly" because it doesn't seem to fit well at all with your final sentence. So, I need to see that before I can comment further as it seems that I may be taking it differently than you intended.



added: Does "self-assembly" mean that there was no creator-god, iyo, by chance?
 
Last edited:

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
I think you'd have to explain what you mean by "self-assembly" because it doesn't seem to fit well at all with your final sentence. So, I need to see that before I can comment further as it seems that I may be taking it differently than you intended.
Self-assembly is what happens after you shake your salad dressing. :) It separates by a self-assembly process into 2 layers, a oil layer, on top and a water layer, on the bottom.

How then do we explain where the mass in the universe came from ? Likely from another universe. If it happened at the time of the bang or crunch, the volume was minimized.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Self-assembly is what happens after you shake your salad dressing. :) It separates by a self-assembly process into 2 layers, a oil layer, on top and a water layer, on the bottom.

How then do we explain where the mass in the universe came from ? Likely from another universe. If it happened at the time of the bang or crunch, the volume was minimized.
Check back at post #22 as I just added something. The more I thought about what you said, the more that I thought that maybe what you were taking was a non-theistic stance. Correct?

As for the last sentence, I agree that this is very much in contention according to the cosmologists that I have read and listened to and, with my miniscule mind, I think it's very much possible. I don't know if our little universe was spit out of a black hole from another universe or the by-product of brane theory or ...?

According to at least one of the cosmologists I've read, he thinks we may have a pretty good idea in maybe less than 10 years of what precipitated the expansions because of the on-going study of the "afterglow"-- the radiation given off at the time of the BB.

Heart, keep beating!
 

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
Check back at post #22 as I just added something. The more I thought about what you said, the more that I thought that maybe what you were taking was a non-theistic stance. Correct?

As for the last sentence, I agree that this is very much in contention according to the cosmologists that I have read and listened to and, with my miniscule mind, I think it's very much possible. I don't know if our little universe was spit out of a black hole from another universe or the by-product of brane theory or ...?

According to at least one of the cosmologists I've read, he thinks we may have a pretty good idea in maybe less than 10 years of what precipitated the expansions because of the on-going study of the "afterglow"-- the radiation given off at the time of the BB.

Heart, keep beating!
Today's new theory of creation :) :

http://phys.org/news/2016-01-theory-secondary-inflation-options-excess.html
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
Yes, but remember that this deals with the 2nd period of inflation that occurred only a milli-fraction of a second after the 1st. However, thanks for the link as it puts it in terms of the hypotheticals dealing with dark matter, which I had not run across before.

Been to Ashoka lately?

Take care, my friend.
Ashoka looks interesting, thanks !
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Ashoka looks interesting, thanks !
It's my favorite restaurant, and my second favorite is Evie's Tamales on Bagley in the Mexican Village area. The latter is just a little hole in the wall and has a limited menu (not just tamales-- my favorite dish is pollo en mole-- i.e. chicken in a poblano salsa). They don't have alcohol there, but their lunches/dinners are absolutely excellent, and the vast majority of the clientele is Hispanic, which should tell ya something.

I wish we could meet but my Sicilian wife is so paranoid about the internet that she would have me in cement boots at the bottom of the Detroit River-- probably would find Jimmy Hoffa there.
 

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
It's my favorite restaurant, and my second favorite is Evie's Tamales on Bagley in the Mexican Village area. The latter is just a little hole in the wall and has a limited menu (not just tamales-- my favorite dish is pollo en mole-- i.e. chicken in a poblano salsa). They don't have alcohol there, but their lunches/dinners are absolutely excellent, and the vast majority of the clientele is Hispanic, which should tell ya something.

I wish we could meet but my Sicilian wife is so paranoid about the internet that she would have me in cement boots at the bottom of the Detroit River-- probably would find Jimmy Hoffa there.
Sorry, I thought you meant the website ! I don't live anywhere near the places you mentioned. :)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Sorry, I thought you meant the website ! I don't live anywhere near the places you mentioned. :)
Oh, I thought you did. Hmmm, I wonder which person here had asked that he and I meet somewhere and I had to decline? Oh well, another "senior moment". :(
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Oh, I thought you did. Hmmm, I wonder which person here had asked that he and I meet somewhere and I had to decline? Oh well, another "senior moment". :(

Think back. Were you looking into a mirror at the time?

You do know what a mirror is..... don't you?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Think back. Were you looking into a mirror at the time?

You do know what a mirror is..... don't you?


Now, when it comes to mirrors, I know mine ain't working too well because I keep seeing this old fart, but when I turn around he ain't there. Either my mirror is broke or that old guy is really fast!
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Here's the way I see it. Pantheism=God is in everything. Panentheism= God is everything, including this conversation. Usually it's hard for most people to get their heads around the non-duality of God.
Not quite actually. Pantheism = God IS everything. Panentheism = Everything is in God, and God is in everything.
Panentheism literally means "nature in God."
Pan means "all/everything." This is why pansexuals don't have sex with nature but any sexual identity.

The words literally mean "God-everything" and "God-in-everything."

I grew up with Christian influence, but it was kinda "my parent's church" sorta thing. Took world religions classes, learned about Taoism and esp Shintoism. Other stuff happened. Became panentheist.

Here's the best explanation for everyone here.

Pantheism sees God as an impersonal macrocosm. That is, God is part of everything as a big idea. God is Nature, God is the Universe. But aside from an eternal universe, this has much the same problems as atheism. If God is everything, what exactly was created? It has kinda iffy parts.

Panentheism is closer to the Body of Christ/Holy Spirit or Shinto kami idea. God is part of all living things in a very personal way, and there is a very real sense that God can create, because everything created is kinda a split-off of God. But it's more than that. Not just living things or Nature or the universe either. I have become inspired by stuff I saw on TV. A commercial for cosmetics changed my understanding of faith (talking about cosmetics that get your hopes up and don't deliver, and "stop believing and start seeing"). God can interact with us through everything. People, books, movies, random stuff we pick up.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Did God create the universe, or was it always there? If he created it, then why did He want to separate himself, per say, into different 'entities'? I understand the universe and Him are like a whole, but if He is the Creator and the Created then why did he create the created?

For the purpose of answering your questions, I will agree to refer to Buddha/Buddha-nature as God. I don't think the usage God is a bad one if it's understood this isn't meant to suggest monotheism or anything ultra-personal.

The universe may have always been there in the sense of a cycle, but this universe as we see it hasn't always been here. It is the product of change. What Buddhists call anicca (impermanence). That all conditioned phenomena is subject to change, decay, cessation, reappearance, and taking future forms.

Therefore, it could be said that God neither creates or does not create the universe. For God remains the ever elusive, unknown reality entirely hidden and obscured from mortal perception by this play of forms, sensations, and the like.

However, in another sense it could be said God creates it. Since God is all that is actually being and acting at all. This is touching a paradoxical aspect of the Buddha though, so I will not continue beyond that statement. Speculation is useless if we get caught in it endlessly and don't stop it somewhere.

God did not necessarily wish to be separate- for there is no self and other. We humans relate through self and other, so we suppose the Ultimate Reality must be like that. Really though, all the unity knows is unity itself. This is a mystery beyond our accounting.

Apply this to your question of creator and created. This is why we do not call Buddha a creator. There is no creator and created in unity. Such a thing is only seeming from our illusory senses.

I am a Buddhist first, and a pantheist second. Therefore, I stop before I get too speculative beyond usefulness like a Buddhist should. The Buddha said one can get caught in all these questions, speculations, and conundrums- and the problem of our being caught in Samsara will remain the same.

Mahayana Buddhism affirms the Buddha is the Ultimate Reality, but says little about it beyond that. We are each Buddha at the core of our being. We are both the body of the Cosmic Buddha, and we carry within us the seeds of awakening- to be the Buddha when we awaken, and transcend being caught in dualism.

This transcending dualism is not easy. The Buddha did not underestimate how caught in our own mind traps we are prone to be.

However, since I believe in one unity and essence behind all- I attempted to answer this.
 
Last edited:

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Strictly speaking, I consider Buddhism closer to pantheist. They are closer to a kinda Self or Mind than God. The closer analogy I'd use for panentheism would be Hinduism, where there is Atma and Paramatma (souls and World Soul).
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Strictly speaking, I consider Buddhism closer to pantheist.

Some Mahayana thought can be called pantheist, but not all approaches can. Some Mahayanists only see Buddha-nature as seeds of potential for awakening, and not as an all-pervasive reality. Theravada doesn't believe in Buddha-nature at all, far as I can tell, but oddly- their traditional texts do carry a sense of the Buddha still existing in Nirvana.

The closer analogy I'd use for panentheism would be Hinduism, where there is Atma and Paramatma (souls and World Soul).

Depends on what Hindu approach we're talking about. Bhedabheda might be called panentheism, because it sees the Atman as being both Brahman and distinct.

Hard Bhedabheda approaches (that the difference is actual) is comparable to panentheism I'd think. Advaita on the other hand, appears pretty darn pantheist to me. They don't see seeming differences between Atman and Brahman as actual. They see Brahman as all that is in truth.

Just to mention: It is debatable rather Buddhism in it's pantheistic forms should be called pantheism or panentheism.

Some schools see all the Buddhas as real reflections of Nirvana. That includes their primordial forms, attributes, teachings, and the like. That's more akin to panentheism.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Wow... I honestly didn't learn the sects of Hinduism. I knew Buddhism, but somehow that never got covered in two World Religion classes (I took twice because I needed a course and they didn't notice).

There are definitely panentheistic strains in Buddhism. In a retelling of the Monkey King, we get this exchange.
"I am even inside your heart." Not that a kid's show is a reliable assessment of Buddhism.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Not that a kid's show is a reliable assessment of Buddhism.

Well the story the Monkey King is taken from: Journey to the West, definitely shows the Buddha as being in everything.

Son Goku tried to flee from the Buddha in a magical contest. He spied five mountains in the distance, and thinking himself safe stopped to rest. The mountains were the Buddha's fingers and he had caught Son Goku in his hand.

Cartoons are often made in the east to teach Buddhism to kids, so it's probably pretty good actually. Anime also carries Buddhist themes and morals more often than not. Like you'll often see a main protagonist who's kind to animals and shows their enemies mercy.
 
Top