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Universal Salvation

coldice013

coldice013

New Member
Maize said:
I do not believe in places of reward or punishment that we go to after we die. Beyond that, I don't know. Maybe we just die, maybe we go on to another plane of existance. I do not believe it is possible to know until it happens.
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It does'nt seem like there is much hope in this life we live.
 
sparc872

sparc872

Active Member
Who told you that innocent massacred Jews all go to Hell?
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As a Jew, are they not denying Jesus? The one and only way to salvation according to most Christians.

You mean the same Lake of Fire where the unsaved go to be "tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)? That doesn't sound finite to me, it sounds like pretty explicit eternal punishment.
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10and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

First of all, it does not say unsaved, it says false prophets and the devil. Second, the Greek words translated as 'forever and ever' can be more accurately translated as 'to the ages of the ages' Implying that they will be tormented for an age of the ages. The tormenting will come to an end.

This is kind of on another note, but would someone who is not with God in Heaven be an enemy of God?
 
FerventGodSeeker

FerventGodSeeker

Believer
sparc872 said:
As a Jew, are they not denying Jesus? The one and only way to salvation according to most Christians.
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Many Jews only have a vague conception of who Jesus is. They have been raised as Jews and all they know as Judaism. God will not judge them to Hell out of unwilling ignorance.

10and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

First of all, it does not say unsaved, it says false prophets and the devil.
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Yeah, except all the unsaved (those whose names are not written in the Book of Life) go to the same place (see verse 15).
Second, the Greek words translated as 'forever and ever' can be more accurately translated as 'to the ages of the ages' Implying that they will be tormented for an age of the ages. The tormenting will come to an end.
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You just contradicted yourself. You said "to the ages of the ages" means "an age of the ages"; obviously whether the first "age" there is singular or plural makes a big difference; for the record, it is plural. Second, you should realize that the Greek phrase literally translated "to the ages of ages" is an expression in Greek meaning, "forever". The same phrase is used in Revelation 7:12, "Amen! Blessing and honor and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen." Clearly it is a phrase referencing eternality.

FerventGodSeeker


This is kind of on another note, but would someone who is not with God in Heaven be an enemy of God?
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Not if they're in Purgatory, which is a place of cleansing, separate from Heaven and Hell, where the saved go to be cleansed. I believe you are confusing the concepts of Purgatory and Hell in your explanation of Hell as temporary cleansing.

FerventGodSeeker
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sparc872

sparc872

Active Member
I know some about purgatory, but not much. Could you tell me more about it and where in the Bible it is mentioned?

Thanks,

Chris
 
Tigress

Tigress

Working-Class W*nch.
sparc872 said:
When I was a Christian, one of the biggest things that always disturbed me was the thought of an all-loving God sending most of his beloved children to an eternal lake of fire; punishing finite sins for infinite duration. I could never wrap my head around that. It just didn't make sense to me.

So for those out there who believe in eternal damnation/salvation, I am asking you why you believe this and how you make it fit into your understanding of who God is.

For those out there who believe in Universal Salvation, I am asking you what scriptural evidence you have to back it up.

For everybody else, I am asking for your input on the belief of eternal damnation and what your opinions are.
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I believe in Universal Salvation, however, I do not look to religious scriptures for this belief, rather, it is because I believe God to be most merciful.
 
Ody

Ody

Well-Known Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
Many Jews only have a vague conception of who Jesus is. They have been raised as Jews and all they know as Judaism. God will not judge them to Hell out of unwilling ignorance.
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Still a pretty odd system regardless when you send voltaire, or ghandi to hell.
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FerventGodSeeker

FerventGodSeeker

Believer
sparc872 said:
I know some about purgatory, but not much. Could you tell me more about it and where in the Bible it is mentioned?

Thanks,

Chris
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Sure. Let me quote directly from the official Church teaching on the subject.

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.( St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39:pL 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.) " Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 1030-1031
Probably of the best known Bible verses on the cleansing of Purgatory is 1 Cor. 3:15,
"But if someone's work is burned, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

FerventGodSeeker
 
FerventGodSeeker

FerventGodSeeker

Believer
AlanGurvey said:
Still a pretty odd system regardless when you send voltaire, or ghandi to hell.
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Who told you that Voltaire and Ghandi went to Hell? I don't think the Church ever excommunicated either of them, we don't know for certain where they went when they died. Now, Voltaire was definitely an opponent of Christianity, even claiming that Jesus didn't exist, etc., but I think Ghandi was much more friendly towards Christian beliefs.

FerventGodSeeker
 
Booko

Booko

Deviled Hen
FerventGodSeeker said:
Who told you that Voltaire and Ghandi went to Hell? I don't think the Church ever excommunicated either of them, we don't know for certain where they went when they died. Now, Voltaire was definitely an opponent of Christianity, even claiming that Jesus didn't exist, etc., but I think Ghandi was much more friendly towards Christian beliefs.
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Yes, Ghandi was very friendly towards Christian beliefs. Much of his inspiration for nonviolent resistance came directly from reading the Gospels. Ghandi had a picture of Jesus in his rooms at one point. Unfortunately, he had some run ins in S. Africa with "Christians" that once led him to say that he would have been Christian if it weren't for the Christians. :(
 
FerventGodSeeker

FerventGodSeeker

Believer
Booko said:
Yes, Ghandi was very friendly towards Christian beliefs. Much of his inspiration for nonviolent resistance came directly from reading the Gospels. Ghandi had a picture of Jesus in his rooms at one point. Unfortunately, he had some run ins in S. Africa with "Christians" that once led him to say that he would have been Christian if it weren't for the Christians. :(
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Yeah, I've read that quote of his along those lines. It's unfortunate that Christians cannot live up to the righteous standard that their God commands. However, this is why we have a Savior in Jesus Christ, to forgive us even when we falter. It's a glorious truth in light of our imperfect humanity. *steps off soap box*. Ok, I'm done, lol.

FerventGodSeeker
 
sparc872

sparc872

Active Member
Who told you that Voltaire and Ghandi went to Hell? I don't think the Church ever excommunicated either of them, we don't know for certain where they went when they died. Now, Voltaire was definitely an opponent of Christianity, even claiming that Jesus didn't exist, etc., but I think Ghandi was much more friendly towards Christian beliefs.
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So now it's up to the church to determine who is going to Hell or not? Since when does man get to decide through excommunication?

Many Christians would have me believe that Voltaire and Ghandi went to Hell because they were never 'born again.'
 
FerventGodSeeker

FerventGodSeeker

Believer
sparc872 said:
So now it's up to the church to determine who is going to Hell or not? Since when does man get to decide through excommunication?
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No, it's up to God. However, the Church does have authority given by God. It has the power to bind sins or loose them (Matthew 16:19; John 20:23). It also has the power to excommunicate Church members, which is the punishment for an extremely grave sin or sins. If a person dies without forgiveness for such grave or mortal sins, their bond with God is completely severed and thus they suffer the consequences.

Many Christians would have me believe that Voltaire and Ghandi went to Hell because they were never 'born again.'
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That is true in a general sense, a person must be born again (born of water and Spirit) to be saved. However, we do not know the level of knowledge which either of them truly had of Christianity, whether they suddenly realized the truth and repented on their deathbed, etc. Extenuating circumstances make it simply impossible at this point to declare categorically that either of them went to Hell, although from my perspective I'd say it's far more likely for Voltaire than Ghandi.

FerventGodSeeker
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sparc872

sparc872

Active Member
However, the Church does have authority given by God.
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You know who else has authority from God? Any and all governments. Because, according to Romans 13:1-7,

"1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

So anybody who has ever resisted their government, you could be out of favor with God. Americans, for rebelling against England, could be going to Hell. Those who have died of genocide and died resisting it, could have judgment brought against them from God.

Everybody, give in to what the government tells you to do, because if you don't, you in for a major spanking from God. Resistence is futile. Those who fought against the axis powers in WWII, shame on you. God gave Germany power to kill, because there is no authority except from God. You should have let yourselves be massacred. What a pity, now you're going to Hell for it.
 
FerventGodSeeker

FerventGodSeeker

Believer
sparc872 said:
You know who else has authority from God? Any and all governments. Because, according to Romans 13:1-7,

"1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

So anybody who has ever resisted their government, you could be out of favor with God. Americans, for rebelling against England, could be going to Hell. Those who have died of genocide and died resisting it, could have judgment brought against them from God.

Everybody, give in to what the government tells you to do, because if you don't, you in for a major spanking from God. Resistence is futile. Those who fought against the axis powers in WWII, shame on you. God gave Germany power to kill, because there is no authority except from God. You should have let yourselves be massacred. What a pity, now you're going to Hell for it.
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Hmmm, somehow I think you might be slightly overexaggerating this singular text on obeying government, in the face of a multitude of verses that declare the Church's divine authority. ;)
Yes, the authorities that are in power are there by the allowance of God. Yes, we should submit to our government. However, the fact that God allows them doesn't mean they are guided by God. The Church, however is constantly guided by God into all truth, that's the difference
This passage also doesn't mean we can't work for change in the context of our own governments (for example, voting in a democracy). It is simply saying not to constantly rebel and refuse to obey government orders, since we are to live by the laws of the land that God has placed us in.

FerventGodSeeker
 
Booko

Booko

Deviled Hen
FerventGodSeeker said:
Yeah, I've read that quote of his along those lines. It's unfortunate that Christians cannot live up to the righteous standard that their God commands. However, this is why we have a Savior in Jesus Christ, to forgive us even when we falter. It's a glorious truth in light of our imperfect humanity. *steps off soap box*. Ok, I'm done, lol.
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Well, too bad Ghandi met the Christians he did. If he'd met the Quakers, he would've thought quite differently, I expect.

otoh, consider what Christians were doing to provide theological support for Apartheid in S. Africa at the time, and it's no wonder he had the opinion he did.
 
M

Mykola

Member
sparc872 said:
Absoulutely! I studied it and studied it and studied it. I went out and bought books, I stayed up late reading the Bible, the internet, and books. I talked to many Pastors, Priests, Ministers, and friends. Christianity pretty much consumed my life for quite a while.
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And what of that?
Still cannot see the loving and caring character of God, His love to justice, His love to us?

sparc872 said:
People are not free to decide though, that's the thing.
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Decide on what?
Who's decided for me what to wear today?

sparc872 said:
A muslim would find it very hard to drop his Islamic faith for Christianity because of many reasons.
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Yes, he would. So what?
I've found it hard, and so what?
So what, friend? :)

Some things are not easy to achieve - but not impossible!

sparc872 said:
People are born into a mindset, we are not free to choose.
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Yes, are born.
No, we are free to decide.

sparc872 said:
Someone born into another religion must find something wrong with that religion in order to look somewhere else or be forced to convert, which wouldn't be genuine belief.
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No, no such 'musts'.

sparc872 said:
I find it hard to believe that someone who never gets the chance to hear the 'Good News' in this world will be damned for the next.
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Don't bother for theoretical someones! You have a person that you should think about right now - and it is you!

sparc872 said:
I also find it hard to believe that someone who hears the Bible sometime during their life and rejects it for whatever reason will be damned to Hell forever.
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Don't take it personal, but your difficulties with believing this or that doesn't count much.

I find it hard to believe that USA exist, because I never have been there (and those TV-news could be all forged, and Americans in Ukraine can be just pretending etc... it's insanity, friend!)

There a world of things I find hard to believe... So what?

By the way - what do you mean by being in Hell?


sparc872 said:
Exactly! When I look at Christianity now, I see it like this: Those who believe in God are either afraid of going to Hell or looking forward to Heaven.
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I would understate if I called this oversimplification :)

sparc872 said:
Why do I need either incentive to be a good person? I don't. I try to be good because it's the right thing to do.
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Right!

sparc872 said:
Sure, I might miss the mark sometimes, but I try to live a good life and I do not need God or his promise of Heaven or his threat of eternal damnation to make me do it.
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Yes, of course...

But based on what standards do you decide what is good or evil?
You try to live a good life? How's that? How d'you know when you succeed in this and when you fail?
 
Jerrell

Jerrell

Active Member
No matter how much people lie to you convincingly that all religions are a path to God...somewhere the prophet,or founder of that religion lied, cuase if this were true, every religion would be false, cause all disagree(exponentially)

Jesus proclaimed "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man gets to the Father(God) but by me"

That pretty much clears it up, that's why i am Christian.
 
sparc872

sparc872

Active Member
And what of that?
Still cannot see the loving and caring character of God, His love to justice, His love to us?
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No, I cannot see the loving caring God that Christianity of today preaches. I see the wrathful, vengeful God that existed throughout the OT and the angry God of the dark ages. Yes, I understand that you believe God is loving and caring, but you are ignoring a great deal of text WITHIN the Bible that makes God out to be angry nine tenths of the time.


Decide on what?
Who's decided for me what to wear today?
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I was talking about religion in that context. I might have over exaggerated on the extent to which someone is unable to decide on their own what religion is right. But a person born in a Muslim country will most likely never come to Christ, even if they have heard about him as God. You will most likely never become a Muslim, even though there are millions of people world wide who believe that it is the only path to Heaven.

No, no such 'musts'.
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So you believe that someone will just switch up their worldview for another one just because? You could easily just become an atheist or a Muslim or a Buddhist? No, you could not. You would need to evaluate your current beliefs and find that they are lacking before you switch up. Right now, you are fully content with your religious beliefs, which is why you maintain them. I found some things wrong with being a Christian, which is why I abandoned the faith for reason.

Don't bother for theoretical someones! You have a person that you should think about right now - and it is you!
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I bother with theoretical someones because they do exist and they provide legitimate reasons for why I am not a Christian. I am not worried about Hell and I am not worried about my life after death. I am worried about people believing things without evaluating their beliefs in full, without coming to an understanding of what it is they are saying and why they believe what they do.


Don't take it personal, but your difficulties with believing this or that doesn't count much.

I find it hard to believe that USA exist, because I never have been there (and those TV-news could be all forged, and Americans in Ukraine can be just pretending etc... it's insanity, friend!)

There a world of things I find hard to believe... So what?
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You are right, and the same thing can be applied to you. What you believe is irrelevant. There are massive amounts of evidence out there pointing to no existence of a God, so why do you go on believing in one, especially the one of the Bible?

By the way - what do you mean by being in Hell?
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Hell as it is commonly referred to by Christians; a place of eternal torment and suffering where the damned will never be released from.

But based on what standards do you decide what is good or evil?
You try to live a good life? How's that? How d'you know when you succeed in this and when you fail?
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People do things that are beneficial for the society and community they live within. A murderer is bad because they go against this. A philanthropist is good because they benefit society. Anything that causes disorder within society is usually bad and anything that brings about peace and calm is good. We don't need morality from God to understand this. We have morality on our own, it is instinct and a socially developed thing that we developed to expand as a species.

Jesus proclaimed "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man gets to the Father(God) but by me"

That pretty much clears it up, that's why i am Christian.
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Jerrell, I have something to tell you.

I am God, there is no way to him but through me, I will bring you everlasting peace in Heaven if you let me, but if you ignore me, then I will burn you in Hell for eternity.

Don't believe me? Why not? I bet it's the same reason I don't believe in Jesus' claim to be God. Anyone can say anything, but just because they say it, doesn't make it true.

Besides, we cannot even be sure that those were Jesus’ true words if he ever were alive. Jesus might have never claimed to be God those words might have been added in when the Gospels were written down, many many years after Jesus' death.
 
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