Is There Any Way To Rectify The Quran's Claims About Yeshua Within the Bible

wizanda · Jan 28, 2016

There are numerous claims the Quran has made about Yeshua... Which all just cause arguments, and haven't got as much substance to them as the Biblical claims, with the prophets backing them up.

So my question is basically if there is no way to justify two contradictory stories, only one must be right.

The points of concern are commonly brought up, please add any more you know of....

Yeshua didn't die, he was taken up, it was made to look like they crucified him....

We've got multiple witnesses within the Biblical text prophesying this would take place, explaining how it did take place, a whole belief system on that it did take place; then the Quran says it didn't happen.

Yeshua isn't the son of God....

Yeshua himself said he was the son in multiple places, the things he fulfilled imply he is, the place he sits in Heaven imply he was, again there are Psalms indicating this would happen; yet the Quran says it didn't.

Yeshua wasn't divine....

The miracles Yeshua performed, him saying he was sent from Heaven, there are places in the Tanakh that call him an Elohim, yet then Muslims say he isn't divine....This might be a word misunderstanding, that they think divine means God; yet it means anything from a divine origin, which Yeshua was.

The Quran calls him the Messiah....

Yeshua told his disciples not to tell people he was 'The Christ (The Messiah)', as that is yet to be fulfilled, otherwise he would have been lying, if he had claimed he was. Again a word misunderstanding by Islam, that The Messiah is a specific person, who shall reign in the Messianic age.

.....................

ankarali · Jan 28, 2016

Yes, muslims believe in Jesus (Yeshua) but there are some differencies between two religions (islam/christiannity) First according to Islam, the God (Allah) is not born from anyone and it does not give birth neither. It is nor a female or a man and It doesn't look like any of its creatures.
Jesus (Yeshua) was not crucified but Judah, because the God (Allah) punished him and his face and voices changed as Jesus face and voice and the jewish community taugth he was the real Jesus but they were mistaken. Judah has been crucified instead of Jesus (Yeshua) and Yeshua was taken by God he will return to this World to figth against Anti-Christ.
I didn't understand what does it mean ''divine'' according to Islam Yeshua is a big prophet. (they are 5 big prophets)
Meshiah means the person advise the goodness but they are two messiah the good one and the bad one. The bad one is Anti-Christ and he will appear during the end of the time.

Desert Snake · Jan 28, 2016

This is a 'different religion', of course, however, in the Deity ideas, it is different, as well. In Xianity, G-d can have form /He does/. In Islam this 'can't happen, essentially; similar to some ideas in Judaism. This therefore, means that there are no ''divine'' figures, with form, in islam.
That being said, Islam includes Jesus in their texts, so the ''character'' Jesus, becomes a prophet.

so the argument, from there , is not even approached, because of that basic difference in theological perspective.

Pastek · Jan 28, 2016

wizanda said:
Yeshua didn't die, he was taken up, it was made to look like they crucified him....

We've got multiple witnesses within the Biblical text prophesying this would take place, explaining how it did take place, a whole belief system on that it did take place; then the Quran says it didn't happen.

First of all can you give some clarifications ? It's been quite a long time when i've read the Gospels so i don't remind well.
Where was the apostles ? For what i understood none of them were presents as they all escaped.
The one who was helping Jesus to hold the cross (i think Simon) did he assit to the crucifixion ?
And were was Mary ? I don't remember if she was there and if she was there was she close to Jesus or if she stayed away from the crowd.

We know that Jesus said 2 different things , he asked why God abandonned Him and he also said the promese who fullfiled.

So here there's a problem because Jesus knew something was about to happen and he even gave to the apostles the miracle of Jonah.
And he said that one of the apostles will betray him and the other will turn his back on him.
Then he shouldn't have asked why God left Him alone, as he knew many things. I also remember he prayed a lot and asked the apostles to pray a lot before he was catched. If i remember well it was just the day before, correct me if i'm wrong.

wizanda said:
Yeshua isn't the son of God..

wizanda said:
Yeshua himself said he was the son in multiple places, the things he fulfilled imply he is, the place he sits in Heaven imply he was, again there are Psalms indicating this would happen; yet the Quran says it didn't.

I think we all have different opinions about this.
Jesus is the son of David, Israel is the son of God, the israelites are His children,
In Luke 1.5 it says that the wife of Zakarya was among the "daughters" of Aaron.

And God is called in general "The Father" by many christians, so i think it's not a litteral thing.

I'm sorry to say buy if Jesus is the real son of God then God is the "uncle" of John the Baptist. That sound strange isn't it ?
Can you associate God with His creation, giving Him a lineage with humans beeings ?

DawudTalut · Jan 28, 2016

wizanda said:
There are numerous claims the Quran has made about Yeshua... Which all just cause arguments, and haven't got as much substance to them as the Biblical claims, with the prophets backing them up.

Ahmadiyya-Muslim Understanding:
Peace be on you.
1=If you think so, it means Quran was not taken/copied/influenced by other Books.

2=Quranic mentions about Jesus (on whom be peace) are supported by traditions, Bible, ancient medical books and history......They are not few.
Ref: https://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html

3=Index of Quranic information about Jesus (a.s.) :
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=2987&region=E1

wizanda said:
So my question is basically if there is no way to justify two contradictory stories, only one must be right.

Right understanding can solve the problem.

wizanda said:
The points of concern are commonly brought up, please add any more you know of....
Yeshua didn't die, he was taken up, it was made to look like they crucified him....
We've got multiple witnesses within the Biblical text prophesying this would take place, explaining how it did take place, a whole belief system on that it did take place; then the Quran says it didn't happen.

Bible tells Jesus was to be saved:
For example:
Jesus's reference to the sign of Jonah simply means that he would not die on the cross
[Luke 11: 29, 30] , [Matthew 12: 39, 40]

Pilate's wife's dream was true and opportune. It implies that Christ was to be saved from a cursed death on the Cross
[Matthew 27:19]

The Roman Governor's Sympathetic Attitude
[Luke 23:14]

But could not bear pressure
[John 19:12]

Yet took secret measures to save Jesus
[John 18:38-40]

Pilate's scheme to save Jesus
[John 19: 39]

=It was clever of Pilate to choose Friday afternoon as the time for Jesus's crucifixion.
=So that Jesus could not remain on the cross after sunset, as the following day being Sabbath.
=Pilate selected Joseph and Nicodemus as the most trusted friends to help with his plans.
=After a short period on the cross Jesus was handed over to Joseph, bones not broken.
=Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes to help Jesus regain consciousness.
=Jesus was shown to have died in official records to pacify the Jews and the Imperial government in Rome.
=So that his prophecy might come true that as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

More http://www.alislam.org/library/articles/Death-on-the-Cross-Slides.pdf

Quran:
[3:56] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee fromthe charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
Note 424:

https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=140&region=EN&CR=E1,E2&CR=E1,E2
and more detailed:
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=407&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2

wizanda said:
Yeshua isn't the son of God....
Yeshua himself said he was the son in multiple places, the things he fulfilled imply he is, the place he sits in Heaven imply he was, again there are Psalms indicating this would happen; yet the Quran says it didn't.

Jesus (a.s.) said otherwise:
[Matthew 26 62+] 62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, "Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?" 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see: The son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven....."

wizanda said:
Yeshua wasn't divine....
The miracles Yeshua performed, him saying he was sent from Heaven, there are places in the Tanakh that call him an Elohim, yet then Muslims say he isn't divine....This might be a word misunderstanding, that they think divine means God; yet it means anything from a divine origin, which Yeshua was.

All Prophets are pure ones and have special relation with God.
Please see for example:
Throwing handful of stones etc by Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) at the foe which came to finish believers, is called act of God in Quran (exact at that time fast wind blew and finished the foes)
[8:18] "............... And thou threwest not when thou didst throw, but it was Allah Who threw,.............."

wizanda said:
The Quran calls him the Messiah....
Yeshua told his disciples not to tell people he was 'The Christ (The Messiah)', as that is yet to be fulfilled, otherwise he would have been lying, if he had claimed he was. Again a word misunderstanding by Islam, that The Messiah is a specific person, who shall reign in the Messianic age....

Messiah means the one who touches and blesses. The one who travels a lot.
Page 752 end @ http://www.alislam.org/quran/dictionary/dictionary_quran.pdf

wizanda · Jan 28, 2016

Pastek said:
First of all can you give some clarifications ??

There are multiple accounts of the crucifixion matching each other, what doesn't match is the resurrection .....

For Yeshua to fulfill the prophecies, and to be deemed worthy to sit at the right hand side of God, and to judge the nations in the Messianic age, he allowed it to happen, he wasn't caught, it wasn't something God hadn't planned, yet had expected in detail...

The Quran is making it into something that was without God's knowing.

ankarali said:
Jesus (Yeshua) was not crucified but Judah, because the God (Allah) punished him

There is no evidence to suggest it was Judas in any prophetic text; instead in some it is allocated for Judas kissing the Messiah, to end the days of ungodliness, which has happened as expected.

So basically it leaves me wondering, if the Quran is just making up what it feels like, without any understanding of the prophecies.

Pastek said:
I'm sorry to say buy if Jesus is the real son of God

The Quran even says Mary was a virgin, which defeats the whole conversation; as the Bible says she was a virgin, as God impregnated her.

Pastek said:
Can you associate God with His creation, giving Him a lineage with humans beeings ?

If God sends an angel to earth, that angel is a son of God, and a Son of man.... Their lineage by genetics doesn't exist, as the soul is planted in a human body.

ankarali said:
Yes, muslims believe in Jesus (Yeshua).

Sorry, Muslims don't believe in him, as they don't accept his teachings within the synoptic gospels.... They believe in what the Quran says about him.

ankarali said:
I didn't understand what does it mean ''divine''

Anything that comes from Heaven can be classed as Divine.

ankarali said:
Meshiah means the person advise the goodness

Messiah means 'anointed one'; yet within the context of prophetic writings, it is the person who will lead the Messianic age.

Pastek · Jan 28, 2016

wizanda said:
The Quran is making it into something that was without God's knowing.

What are you talking about ?

You didn't answer clearly to the questions by the way. Were the apostles witnesses of Jesus crucifixion or not ?

And like said @DawudTalut the miracle of Jonah means Jesus wasn't killed.

wizanda said:
The Quran even says Mary was a virgin, which defeats the whole conversation; as the Bible says she was a virgin, as God impregnated her.

What about considerating it as a "miracle" ?

wizanda said:
If God sends an angel to earth, that angel is a son of God, and a Son of man.... Their lineage by genetics doesn't exist, as the soul is planted in a human body.

So, Jesus in not the real son of God. End of the conversation.

wizanda said:
Sorry, Muslims don't believe in him, as they don't accept his teachings within the synoptic gospels.... They believe in what the Quran says about him.

Whatever he said in the Gospel it isn't different from the general message in the Quran.
So you can't say we don't accept his teachings.

It's like if i was saying you don't believe in Moses because you don't follow the Torah.

wizanda · Jan 28, 2016

DawudTalut said:
Bible tells Jesus was to be saved:

It tells us he is to be saved by God, for fulfilling God's will; not by man... You're saying he didn't fulfill prophecy, made it look like he did by deception.

Sorry that argument, has no substance, you're trying to take odd verses out of context to make it fit.... When clearly that defeats what the prophecies are stating.

DawudTalut said:
Right understanding can solve the problem.

Yes, and so far Muslims have put me off accepting Islam, even though i accepted many points within the Quran.

Pastek said:
the miracle of Jonah means Jesus wasn't killed.

The miracle of Jonah is taken by Christians to mean he would be dead 3 days, and then raised from the dead....So clearly killed according to many; maybe you can show how that means the complete opposite?

Pastek said:
Were the apostles witnesses of Jesus crucifixion or not ?

No, yet other family members were present according to the text, and loads of people saw it take place; so it wouldn't be hard to collect the story afterwards.

On the other hand, there is no evidence to suggest it wasn't him, it was some deception, other then the Quran saying about it hundreds of years afterwards.

Pastek said:
What are you talking about ?

Talking about multiple Biblical prophecies, that say he will be taken up, put to death, made to suffer, etc.

Pastek said:
What about considerating it as a "miracle" ?

It is a miracle according to the text, God planted the seed in Mary....The idea she was a virgin implies the same.

Pastek said:
So, Jesus in not the real son of God.

According to the Bible, and Quran by saying Mary was a virgin, they're both saying God was the biological father.

Pastek said:
Whatever he said in the Gospel it isn't different from the general message in the Quran.
So you can't say we don't accept his teachings.

So Muslims don't pray in public? They don't make vain repetition in prayers? Wear special robes to make themselves important before men?

There are so many points where we can show Muslims don't accept Yeshua's teachings, they accept Islam, and disregard his message.

Pastek said:
It's like if i was saying you don't believe in Moses because you don't follow the Torah.

I accept Moses; yet i don't believe in him or follow the Torah....Yet i believe what he had to say he felt was from God, and am respectful enough to read it, and question it.

Denying the gospels, saying they're fake, that the message within it is corrupt; means many Muslims have no respect for the prophets or their messages, they just say they believe, and think that counts.

Sorry your answers so far, are just putting me off Islam entirely, find nothing but conjecture, no evidence, and lots of contradictions within the overall prophetic texts.

Peace B with U

Pastek · Jan 28, 2016

wizanda said:
Talking about multiple Biblical prophecies, that say he will be taken up, put to death, made to suffer, etc.

Are you talking about the Old Testament ? I thought not everybody agreed about this prophecy ?
I've read some things about the word "virgin" who wasn't translated correctly, that Emmanuel wasn't Jesus, that it was supposed to happen during the life of a particular King etc ... You were talking about that prophecy ?

wizanda said:
According to the Bible, and Quran by saying Mary was a virgin, they're both saying God was the biological father.

No.
If you can accept that Adam has no parents you should be able to believe Jesus have just one parent.

Or then you can say that Adam is the son of God, then Jesus and Adam are half brothers.

But maybe you'll say you don't believe in Adam as you don't believe in Moses.
The question would be, since when you start to believe in what is in the Bible ?
Since which prophet exactly your belief start ? That would be easier to understand and save me for giving exemples who won't serve in anything (like about Adam)

Other question : Jesus believe in everything in the Torah or doesn't he believe too in Adam and Moses ?

wizanda said:
There are so many points where we can show Muslims don't accept Yeshua's teachings, they accept Islam, and disregard his message.

So tell me

wizanda said:
I accept Moses; yet i don't believe in him or follow the Torah....Yet i believe what he had to say he felt was from God, and am respectful enough to read it, and question it.

That's was interesting really.

This is something i always have problem to understand.

Here we have Jesus who follows the Torah (given to Moses by God), yet some christians don't believe in Moses. (

The Bible is made with both the Old and New Testament, if what said Moses wasn't true, we can question many things, even the prophecies you say you believe in.

wizanda said:
Denying the gospels, saying they're fake, that the message within it is corrupt; means many Muslims have no respect for the prophets or their messages, they just say they believe, and think that counts.

You don't understand muslims.
We accept the Bible as a general message of God and the prophets but we just believe it was mixed with some things who weren't from them (not divine, not inspired).
What some people see as "errors" or "contradictions" of the Bible just mean for us it wasn't from God or the prophets or inspired.
Doesn't mean everything is false !
For exemple muslims accept those you call "Luke, Peter etc" as apostles yet in the Quran we don't have ANY name of the disciples nor their numbers.

The muslims in general don't deny that this or that prophet never existed just because we don't have him in the Quran.
For exemple : Samson. If it's in the Bible then we say, then ... ok maybe (but we can't say no) even if we aren't sure that everything is true in his story (strange story by the way) .
Can you say the same ? If no then you think the sory is "fake" exactly what you accuse us of .

Let's take the exemple of Hell in the Gospels. Many christians believe it's not a real Hell. But when you read what Jesus said it wasn't a parable or something like that.
I can say that you adapt things as you like and reject Jesus' message. You don't like the idea of Hell, then reject what Jesus said saying it's a metaphore.

I can also say that you too say that "you believe" but in reality do you pick and choose ? In what do you believe in what you don't ?
Is that respect for the prophets and their teachings ?

wizanda said:
Sorry your answers so far, are just putting me off Islam entirely, find nothing but conjecture, no evidence, and lots of contradictions within the overall prophetic texts.

Peace B with U

Not trying to convice you. This is just a debate

Peace be upon you too !

wizanda · Jan 28, 2016

Pastek said:
Are you talking about the Old Testament ? I thought not everybody agreed about this prophecy ?

Its called the Tanakh, the term old testament is to imply it is no longer required, as Christians follow the New Testament.

Not everyone does agree on prophecy; yet multiple prophecies are commonly accepted as being about the Messiah, and Christians apply them to Yeshua.

Pastek said:
You were talking about that prophecy ?

Was referring to Daniel's mention of the Messiah being taken up, Isaiah 53 saying that the servant shall be put to death, the rest of the interlinking prophecies within Isaiah, Zechariah 12 saying about the suffering servant being pierced, etc.

Pastek said:
that Emmanuel wasn't Jesus

It is stated within the synoptic gospels, that Yeshua is Immanuel, the prophecies fit within what he did.... So personally find it fits in many places.

Pastek said:
you should be able to believe Jesus have just one parent.

Yeshua said God was his father, and that he was the Son.

He also said that those who do the work of God (peacemakers), would also be called Children of God.

Pastek said:
Since which prophet exactly your belief start ?

I don't believe in prophets, that is idolatry; I believe in God, and accept the messages that the prophets relay.... Some make more sense than others.

Pastek said:
even the prophecies you say you believe in.

The prophecies add up across time, i accept the maths that is presented...Don't really believe it, it is more that it has all happened as predicted.

Pastek said:
Jesus believe in everything in the Torah or doesn't he believe too in Adam and Moses ?

Yeshua said that not the smallest detail of the Torah shall be removed, until all things are fulfilled.

I'm not a Christian by the way, I'm a theologian trying to understand the many different religions; therefore asking why Islam doesn't fit with the Biblical prophecies, and I accept all the text as evidence.

Pastek said:
I can also say that you too say that "you believe" but in reality do you pick and choose ? In what do you believe in what you don't ?
Is that respect for the prophets and their teachings ?

I've spent the time to read them, and accept what they had to say.... Yet yes i do pick and choose, yet i don't say i believe in them, and then don't accept what they're saying.

I'm more interested to see if what they had to say adds up, if it does based on probability of the whole.... Then I'm fascinated to see how it fits together, evidence, not beliefs.

Yet it is a good point you bring up..... You're on about believing in prophets, and that means to you, that someone saying they didn't exist, means not to believe in them.

Whereas my understanding is that to believe in something, you've got to understand it; you can't just say i believe in something, and have no idea what their teachings are.

Thus the many Muslims I've asked, don't believe in the prophets; most have never read any of them, they just say they do.

muhammad_isa · Jan 28, 2016

wizanda said:
If God sends an angel to earth, that angel is a son of God, and a Son of man.... Their lineage by genetics doesn't exist, as the soul is planted in a human body.

Well there you have it .. it's a language issue. If Almighty God sends an angel to earth, does that make the angel Divine? (ie. God) .. I think not

wizanda said:
Anything that comes from Heaven can be classed as Divine.

Hmm .. there's multiple definitions of divine .. it could be used to describe a dessert

Normally, when we use the word with a capital 'D' (Divine), we refer to God

wizanda · Jan 28, 2016

muhammad_isa said:
If Almighty God sends an angel to earth, does that make the angel Divine? (ie. God) .. I think not

Clearly it is a language issue; divine implies anything from Heaven, it doesn't have to mean God....

So yes the angel would still be divine; unless it fell from grace, then it would be deemed a fallen angel.

muhammad_isa said:
Normally, when we use the word with a capital 'D' (Divine), we refer to God

Anything that comes from God can be Divine. A person called Divine would also be capitalized, doesn't make them into God. Yeshua being Divine, doesn't make him God either.

Starting to think Muslims just make up what ever, to fit with the many contradictions they've been taught.

muhammad_isa · Jan 28, 2016

wizanda said:
Clearly it is a language issue; divine implies anything from Heaven, it doesn't have to mean God...
. . .
Starting to think Muslims just make up what ever, to fit with the many contradictions they've been taught.

I might be wrong, but that's what I've always understood..

Take a look at >>http://www.thefreedictionary.com/divine<<

Particularly at:
............................................................................................................
Noun 1. Divine - terms referring to the Judeo-Christian God..
Almighty, Creator, God Almighty, Godhead, Lord, Maker, Jehovah

Blessed Trinity, Holy Trinity, Sacred Trinity, Trinity - the union of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost in one Godhead

hypostasis of Christ, hypostasis - any of the three persons of the Godhead constituting the Trinity especially the person of Christ in which divine and human natures are united
...........................................................................................................

According to that page, divine can mean a LOT of things .. but with a capital "D" .. as above

NB. it doesn't say anything about angels

wizanda · Jan 28, 2016

muhammad_isa said:
Particularly at:

divine
(dɪˈvaɪn)
adj
1. (Theology) of, relating to, or characterizing God or a deity
2. godlike
3. (Theology) of, relating to, or associated with religion or worship: the divine liturgy.
4. of supreme excellence or worth
5. informal splendid; perfect
n
6. (Theology) the divine (often capital) another term for God
7. (Ecclesiastical Terms) a priest, esp one learned in theology
vb
8. to perceive or understand (something) by intuition or insight
9. to conjecture (something); guess
10. to discern (a hidden or future reality) as though by supernatural power
11. (Mining & Quarrying) (tr) to search for (underground supplies of water, metal, etc) using a divining rod

This end line of the Latin, makes sense of maybe why Muslims question it meaning a God.

--->[C14: from Latin dīvīnus, from dīvus a god; related to deus a god]<----

Yet clearly within many of the definitions, it can be used as any adjective, to describe things about the Divine... Like the Holy Spirit is Divine, angels are Divine messengers, etc.

Anyways back on topic, Yeshua was Divine according to the text, performed miracles, stopped weather, healed sick; yet it doesn't mean he is God.

muhammad_isa · Jan 28, 2016

Well, hopefully we've sorted out the confusion of the word 'divine' or Divine

wizanda said:
According to the Bible, and Quran by saying Mary was a virgin, they're both saying God was the biological father.

Not at all! Almighty God (otherwise known as the Father in Biblical greek/aramaic text) is not a physical being .. He is spiritual. How can a 'spiritual being' be a 'biological father' ?

The point I was making a few posts ago was that the terms 'son of God, son of Man' does not have to refer to a biological son .. it was/is a term used to indicate that they were 'no ordinary person'

So as you say, 'a son' does not have to be God

Is There Any Way To Rectify The Quran's Claims About Yeshua Within the Bible

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts

ankarali

Active Member

Desert Snake

Veteran Member

Pastek

Sunni muslim

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts

Pastek

Sunni muslim

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts

Pastek

Sunni muslim

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member