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Allah - the true God?
- Thread starter peacecrusader888
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Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
Your question is not a good one, simply because you don't want us Muslims to refer to our religious texts, which is ridiculous because we don't just wake up one day and assume we know all the attributes of the "true" God.
peacecrusader888
Active Member
@Tomorrows Child
I think every religion uses their Holy Scripture to justify the existence of their god. To be in the same playing field, I asked that without using their Holy Scripture to give me a plain, simple and logical answer to prove the existence of the true God. The answer is prophesy. The true God can prophesy while the false gods cannot. Will you worship a god who cannot prophesy?
There is only one true God and all the other gods are false. I say that if you were to worship a god, be sure that He is the true God. Is this fair enough?
I think every religion uses their Holy Scripture to justify the existence of their god. To be in the same playing field, I asked that without using their Holy Scripture to give me a plain, simple and logical answer to prove the existence of the true God. The answer is prophesy. The true God can prophesy while the false gods cannot. Will you worship a god who cannot prophesy?
There is only one true God and all the other gods are false. I say that if you were to worship a god, be sure that He is the true God. Is this fair enough?
Tomorrows_Child
Active Member
I know what you're saying but like I said before (can't remember if I was replying to you or someone else) my evidence from God comes in the form of the Quran, the verses as a "Sign". Like I said, I can not simply contemplate the existence of God and come to the conclusions of what He is and what He wants and so on, on my own. We all need guidance in every aspect of life, whether it's religious, academic, professional etc.
Now, about the point of prophecy, of course, that is important and the Quran has many prophecies, some fulfilled, some yet to be fulfilled, which further strengthen my belief in my scripture.
peacecrusader888
Active Member
@Tomorrows_Child
Could you please list down the prophecies of Allah that have happened and those that is to be fulfilled yet? Jesus was born. Does Allah know the date when Jesus was born?
Could you please list down the prophecies of Allah that have happened and those that is to be fulfilled yet? Jesus was born. Does Allah know the date when Jesus was born?
And how will you know whether what Allah says is correct or not? what will be your reference?
peacecrusader888
Active Member
I think Allah is not omniscient because he acknowledges Jesus Christ but he does not know when Jesus was born. It was a past event and yet he did not know when it happened.
The spirit of Ama says that Jesus was born on 05-23, and after more than 20 years since I first heard it in 1983, I was able to prove using mainly the Holy Bible that He is correct. Ama is omniscient. The reference that I use is John 16:13 which states that the Spirit of truth “will show you things to come.” It means to prophesy. Please read my post why I believe that Ama is the spirit of Jesus Christ.
So you know Ama is correct because it matches the bible? and where did the bible get this information from on the first place?
Did Jesus himself documented the date of his birth in the bible? if yes, was it before he was born, or after he was born? and where is the verse which talks about his birth?
peacecrusader888
Active Member
The spirit of Ama is correct because it matches the Holy Bible. Most, if not all, of the listeners of Ama believe that He is the spirit of Jesus Christ. I would like to tell you that I doubted for eleven (11) years from 1983 to 1994 He is Jesus Himself. What made my aboutface?
1. The word Ama appeared in a featured article about me and the Aristean calendar.
2. 888 is the number of Jesus. Our post office box at Campbelltown, New South Wales, Australia was in the center forming a cross, confirming the crucifixion.
3. My mother Gregoria and grandmother Julita are related to the calendar which we presently use.
You may read the details in http://aristean.org/wp113.htm titled “From doubt to belief”.
Yeah, but you didn't answer my question. where does the bible say i'm Jesus and i was born on so and so date?
peacecrusader888
Active Member
The New Testament of the Holy Bible is about the story of Jesus. It was the spirit of Ama who said that Jesus was born on 05-23. After more than 20 years since I first heard it in 1983, I proved that His revelation is correct.
I noticed that in the New Testament, if it was Jesus who said it, most likely it was not altered. However, if it was not said by Jesus, it might have been altered. Ama tells us what is correct.
Ama told us to read also "Pasiong Mahal". He said that it was derived from the Holy Bible but I find it more detailed such as the names of the parents of Mary, the names of the three kings, what happened to Joseph and Mary, the visit of Saint Elena to Jerusalem in the fourth century AD, etc.
The Holy Bible does not explicitly say when Jesus born but from its accounts, we can deduce that the date is correct. I will be serializing the events mainly from the Bible. If you find the date 05-23 is wrong, please raise your question. Is that fair enough?
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. (Quran 4:157)
Case closed.
peacecrusader888
Active Member
You cited Qur'an 4:157. How many witnesses do you need? Should they be males, females, or mixed?
In the Holy Bible, we have Matthew, Mark, Luke, John ,Paul. They wrote about the death of Jesus. Paul was even an ardent persecutor of the followers of Jesus and yet, he became a champion of Jesus. Do you think Jesus was not crucified? Broaden your outlook. Read what the spirit of Ama said in http://aristean.org/sermon006.htm titled "The pauper in disguise".
Who resembled Jesus? FYI, it was Pontius Pilate. Jesus made Pilate to look like Him when He was aged twelve.
Who do you think should we listen to: to the spirit of Ama or to our fellowmen? Ama said that Jesus was born on 05-23 and died on 08-17. If Allah is omniscient, he should know
when these dates happened His birth, for example, is a past event.
Union
Well-Known Member
Sorry to just jump into the ride from the middle , none of the above mentioned people witnessed Jesus' crucifixion . They wrote something that they didn't witnessed in their own eyes . If that was not the case , please provide evidences from NT . Thanks .
mojtaba
Active Member
Dear friend, Allah knows when Jesus(pbuh) has been borned. There are all things in Holy Qur'an. All things about past and also future.
But, Qur'an needs his true teacher.
Unfortunatly, his teacher in this time i.e., Imam Mahdi(peace be upon him) is in Occultation. According to Holy Qur'an and Hadiths, there are all things in Qur'an.
Noble Qur'an 16:89, We have sent down the Book to you as a clarification of all things.
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Muhammad ibn 'Isa from abu ‘Abdallah al-Mu‘min from ‘Abd al-A‘la Mawla ’Ala Sam who has said that
he heard Imam Sadiq[ the sixth Successor of Prophet Muhammad ] say the following,
"I swear by Allah that I know the Holy Quran from the beginning to end as if it is in the palm of my hand. In it there is the news of the heavens and the earth, the news of what has been and the new of what will come into being. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has said, "In it there is the explanation of all things." (16:89)
(Source, Al-Kafi, vol. 1, pg. 229)
peacecrusader888
Active Member
According to the spirit of Ama, John is the author of the gospel according to St John. I believe Ama when He said that the author of the gospel is the disciple John, and not John the brother of James. The disciple John is the disciple that Jesus loved.
This is what John 19:26-27 say:
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith her to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
peacecrusader888
Active Member
Which is "the Book" "sent down" "to you as a clarification of all things"? The original Arabic and its translation.
Where will World War III start?
Union
Well-Known Member
Weren't Saint John and Disciple John the same person , the brother of James ? Sorry , I am confused .
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=228
A very careful study of the Gospels reveal exactly opposite fact that John the apostle and ‘the disciple whom he loved’ were different persons . Let me cite some of the points in favor of my views for your perusal:
01. In this very first point we need to identify two mysterious characters of Gospels who are ‘the other disciple’ and ‘ the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’. We have clear proofs from Gospels that these two un-named persons are not different persons but the same person but some times he was addressed as ‘the other disciple’ and sometimes as ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’. The following verses are the clear proofs in this regard :
John 20:1-3 >>
“The first of the Sabbaths Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, darkness still being on it , and she saw the stone taken away from the tomb. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
John 21:20 >>
“Then Peter, turning around, saw the other disciple whom Jesus loved- the one who also leaned on His breast at supper, and said, Lord, who is he who betrays You?”
In both verses both of the title referred to the same disciple of Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) . Furthermore there are so many scenes where we can find ‘the other disciple’ or ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ appeared but not a single scene had been found where both of the characters appeared simultaneously or together. Hence here the point is ‘the other disciple’ and ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ is the same person .Now let us concentrate our attention to the couple of verses from the last chapter of John . These verses are :
“1 After these things Jesus revealed himself again to the disciples at the Sea of Tiberias. And he revealed himself this way: 2 Simon Peter, and Thomas called the Twin, and Nathanael from Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two others of his disciples were together. 3 Simon Peter said to them, I am going out to fish. They said to him, We will go with you also. They went out and entered into a boat immediately. And that night they caught nothing.4 But when the morning had come, Jesus stood on the shore. But the disciples did not know that it was Jesus.5 Then Jesus said to them, Children, do you have anything to eat? They answered Him, No.6 And He said to them, Cast the net on the right side of the boat and you will find. Therefore they cast, and now they no longer had the strength to draw, from the multitude of fish.7 Then that disciple whom Jesus loves said to Peter, It is the Lord! Then hearing that it is the Lord, Simon Peter girded on his coat (for he was naked), and cast himself into the sea.8 And the other disciples came in a little boat (for they were not far from land, only about two hundred cubits), dragging the net of fish.” John (21:1-8)
In that event at the Sea of Tiberias few disciples were appeared . They are :
1.Simon Peter 2.Thomas 3. Nathanae , 4+5. the sons of Zebedee which means James and John and finally 6+7 two others of the disciples .
As we have seen before in the Gospels “ the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved” and “ the other disciple” are the same person so there is no doubt that this mysterious disciple and the apostle John were together in the above event of Jesus’ (Peace Be Upon him) appearance in Tiberias.Then how it could be possible that John the son of Zebedee and that disciple would be the same person? More over in the above incident it was reported that “the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved” was the one who identified Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) . This also clears the fact that “the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved” was one of the other disciples (6+7) and was with the apostle John and there remained no scope to claim that “the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved” or “the other disciple” and the apostle John are the same person.
02. Let’s read from John 21:24 >>
“This is the disciple (‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’) who testifies of these things and wrote these things. And we know that his testimony is true.”
Very strange to notice here that who is that “we’. Is it not that unknown ‘we’ who collected ,compiled and wrote down this Gospel . More surprise is hidden in the verse of John 19:35 >>
“And he who saw bore record, and his record is true. And he knows that he speaks true, so that you might believe.”
The unreciprocated question is who is that ‘he’? If the eye-witness had written this Gospel then we could have found a strong ‘I’ instead of that weak and puzzling ‘he’. This paradox thrusts us to have an extreme problem for admitting the fact of John and ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ to be the same person . It is obvious from this point that the writer of this Gospel whose name is John had collected materials from the disciple who witnessed the life span of Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) and was present in the time of his crucifixion . This dilemma is also a proof against the fact of them (John and (‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ ) to be the same person .
03. John 21:24 is telling us that ‘the apostle whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ had written down these things by his own hand but Acts 4:13 is telling us that the apostle John was un-educated or illiterate who did not know how to read or write. If you read the Gospel of John you can find in the Gospel a high literature value rich with Greek philosophy which was written in Greek language . Now is it possible for an ordinary illiterate man like John , the son of Zebedee to write such a Gospel like this ? He was a normal fisherman who brought up in Galilee (Mathew 4:21-22,Mark 1:16-20,Luke 5:1-11) whose mother tongue was Aramaic and he could never learn Greek because he was illiterate or un educated (Acts 4:13) . So ‘the apostle whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loves’ is a different person than the apostle John , the son of Zebedee.
Cont..
Union
Well-Known Member
04. Quoting from your letter, John 19:25-27 described the eyewitnesses of Jesus’(Peace Be Upon him) crucifixion :
And his mother stood by the cross of Jesus, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
Then when Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom He loved standing by, he said to his mother, Woman, behold your son!......” “
But to get a clear picture of this event we need to concentrate to three synoptic Gospels . Let’s see what they are telling in this respect :
Matthew 27: 55-56 >>
“ Many women were also there, looking on from a distance; they had followed Jesus from Galilee and had provided for him. Among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.”
Mark 15:40-41 >>
“ And also women were watching from a distance, among whom also was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less, and of Joses, and Salome,
41 (who also, when He was in Galilee, followed Him and ministered to Him), and many other women who came up with Him to Jerusalem.
Luke 23:48-49 >>
“ And all the crowd arriving together at this sight, beholding the things happening, struck their breasts and returned.
And all those known to Him stood at a distance; and the women, those accompanying Him from Galilee, were seeing these things.”
What we are observing here is none of the three synoptic Gospels mentioned the presence of blessed Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (May Peace Be upon them) and ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ during the period of his crucifixion . How it is possible for all those three authors to overlook such significant characters like Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (May Peace Be upon them) and ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ in their Gospels where John alone mentioned them in his Gospel . This inconsistency between the three synoptic Gospels and Gospel of John leads us to believe that blessed mother of Jesus (peace be upon her) and ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ were not present at all in the moment of his crucifixion and this belief suppose to be three times stronger and logical than the fact of their presence . I feel worthy again to mention another important evidence here . Mark 14:50 and Mathew 26:56 reported us that all of his disciples left him and ran away. In the both reports the word all is used which obviously included the apostle John , the son of Zebedee. None of his twelve disciples were with him from the time of their flee till the time Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) resurrected and by himself he went to meet with them (Matthew 28 :16-20,Mark 16:12-14, Luke 24:13-40 and John 20:19) . Moreover this fact was really important for Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) to fulfill the prophecy . Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) himself told so :
Mark 14:27-28 >>
“And Jesus said to them, All of you will run away and leave me (tonight), For it is written, "I will smite the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered."But after I am raised, I will go before you into Galilee.”
Now if ‘the disciple whom he loved’ is John with whom Jesus (pbuh) talked to take care of his mother then the above prophesy didn’t fulfill at all . This prophesy fulfill if and only if ‘the disciple whom he loved’ is not any one among of his twelve disciples whom he choose for his mission .
05. Lastly I like to mention you the incident of the empty tomb in John , chapter 20 . Observe carefully :
“1 The first of the sabbaths Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, darkness still being on it , and she saw the stone taken away from the tomb.
2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.
3 Therefore Peter and that other disciple went forth and came to the tomb.
4 So they both ran together. And the other disciple outran Peter and came first to the tomb.
5 And stooping down he saw the linens lying, yet he did not go in.
6 Then Simon Peter came following him and went into the tomb. And he saw the linens lying there .
7 And the grave-cloth that was on His head was not lying with the linens, but was wrapped up in one place by itself.
8 Therefore, then, that other disciple also went in, the one who came first to the tomb. And he saw and believed.
9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture that He must rise again from the dead.
10 Then the disciples went away again to themselves.
11 But Mary stood outside of the tomb, weeping. And as she wept, she stooped down into the tomb.”
In the above descriptions we are told that ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ didn’t know the scripture that Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) must rise from death after three days . But Luke 09, Matthew 16 and Mark 08 report us that Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) explained the phenomenon of his rise from death to all of his twelve disciples (which must include John) vastly, plainly and emphatically. Then how John 20:09 can be resolved ? There is only one answer to resolve this question and that is the disciple John and ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loves’ are not the same person .
With my scanty time I have found the above mentioned five points to establish a clear picture , which is John and ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ are not the same person. May be a deep and subtle observation on the Gospels can add more evidences in my support.
And his mother stood by the cross of Jesus, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
Then when Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom He loved standing by, he said to his mother, Woman, behold your son!......” “
But to get a clear picture of this event we need to concentrate to three synoptic Gospels . Let’s see what they are telling in this respect :
Matthew 27: 55-56 >>
“ Many women were also there, looking on from a distance; they had followed Jesus from Galilee and had provided for him. Among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.”
Mark 15:40-41 >>
“ And also women were watching from a distance, among whom also was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less, and of Joses, and Salome,
41 (who also, when He was in Galilee, followed Him and ministered to Him), and many other women who came up with Him to Jerusalem.
Luke 23:48-49 >>
“ And all the crowd arriving together at this sight, beholding the things happening, struck their breasts and returned.
And all those known to Him stood at a distance; and the women, those accompanying Him from Galilee, were seeing these things.”
What we are observing here is none of the three synoptic Gospels mentioned the presence of blessed Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (May Peace Be upon them) and ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ during the period of his crucifixion . How it is possible for all those three authors to overlook such significant characters like Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ (May Peace Be upon them) and ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ in their Gospels where John alone mentioned them in his Gospel . This inconsistency between the three synoptic Gospels and Gospel of John leads us to believe that blessed mother of Jesus (peace be upon her) and ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ were not present at all in the moment of his crucifixion and this belief suppose to be three times stronger and logical than the fact of their presence . I feel worthy again to mention another important evidence here . Mark 14:50 and Mathew 26:56 reported us that all of his disciples left him and ran away. In the both reports the word all is used which obviously included the apostle John , the son of Zebedee. None of his twelve disciples were with him from the time of their flee till the time Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) resurrected and by himself he went to meet with them (Matthew 28 :16-20,Mark 16:12-14, Luke 24:13-40 and John 20:19) . Moreover this fact was really important for Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) to fulfill the prophecy . Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) himself told so :
Mark 14:27-28 >>
“And Jesus said to them, All of you will run away and leave me (tonight), For it is written, "I will smite the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered."But after I am raised, I will go before you into Galilee.”
Now if ‘the disciple whom he loved’ is John with whom Jesus (pbuh) talked to take care of his mother then the above prophesy didn’t fulfill at all . This prophesy fulfill if and only if ‘the disciple whom he loved’ is not any one among of his twelve disciples whom he choose for his mission .
05. Lastly I like to mention you the incident of the empty tomb in John , chapter 20 . Observe carefully :
“1 The first of the sabbaths Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, darkness still being on it , and she saw the stone taken away from the tomb.
2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.
3 Therefore Peter and that other disciple went forth and came to the tomb.
4 So they both ran together. And the other disciple outran Peter and came first to the tomb.
5 And stooping down he saw the linens lying, yet he did not go in.
6 Then Simon Peter came following him and went into the tomb. And he saw the linens lying there .
7 And the grave-cloth that was on His head was not lying with the linens, but was wrapped up in one place by itself.
8 Therefore, then, that other disciple also went in, the one who came first to the tomb. And he saw and believed.
9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture that He must rise again from the dead.
10 Then the disciples went away again to themselves.
11 But Mary stood outside of the tomb, weeping. And as she wept, she stooped down into the tomb.”
In the above descriptions we are told that ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ didn’t know the scripture that Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) must rise from death after three days . But Luke 09, Matthew 16 and Mark 08 report us that Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) explained the phenomenon of his rise from death to all of his twelve disciples (which must include John) vastly, plainly and emphatically. Then how John 20:09 can be resolved ? There is only one answer to resolve this question and that is the disciple John and ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loves’ are not the same person .
With my scanty time I have found the above mentioned five points to establish a clear picture , which is John and ‘the disciple whom Jesus (Peace Be Upon him) loved’ are not the same person. May be a deep and subtle observation on the Gospels can add more evidences in my support.
mojtaba
Active Member
Holy Qur'an.
Imam Ali[ the first Successor of Prophet Muhammad ] has said,
Certainly the outside of the Quran is wonderful and its inside is deep. Its wonders will never disappear, its amazements will never pass away and the intricacies cannot be cleared except through it.
(Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 18)
As I mentioned prevoiusly, There are all things in Holy Qur'an. All things about past and also future. But, Qur'an needs its true teacher who now throught the Qur'an, from its outside to its deepest inside. But unfortunately, its true teacher in this time i.e., Imam Mahdi(peace be upon him) is in Occultation.
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