An Act Of War!

outhouse said:

Do I have to post the definition of the word AGREED for you?



That was not his name, anymore then thinking he would understand the name Jesus

And my quote came from "historicity of Jesus" so it is irrefutable. As all evidence points to such

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Shalom outhouse, I believe we have beaten this horse enough for now. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Shalom All, why don't we get back to the OP. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

Ken Brown said:

Shalom All, why don't we get back to the OP. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

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Meh. The OP wasn't really worth debating.

Hi Prometheus11,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

You wrote:

"Christ, by example, died to win."

Actually, your statement is an oversimplification. My Messiah Yahushua, as I have already indicated on this thread, did not desire to physically die. Messiah sought from HIS Heavenly Father an alternative to HIS own physical death. Thus, Messiah Yahushua was not at all like the present day Muslim suicide bomber. HE did not kill HIMSELF in order to win. Rather, Messiah Yahushua used HIS own murder in order to kill multitudes in the Valley of Decision.

You further wrote:

"Mohammed, by example, killed to win."

I can agree with you here. Radical religionists for the most part seek to physically kill their opponents to gain or sustain supremacy. The problem with this activity is simply that all such winning is an allusion. All radicals whether they be Jews, Christians, Muslims, or of the various eastern religions, win nothing more than the grave for all their effort.

You concluded:

Muslims kill and Christians die and both win...according to their names.

Both Muslims and Christians have proved that they can kill, and both Muslims and Christians, barring physical death by violence, have proven over and over again that they all grow old, and eventually get sick and physically die. Thus, they actually through all their efforts win nothing in terms of LIFE.

How about you yourself, Prometheus11, do you yourself have any expectation of winning anything but physical death?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

atpollard said:

Meh. The OP wasn't really worth debating.

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Shabbat Shalom atpollard, debating that might depend upon one's level of wisdom and understanding as to whether or not Yeshua's WORK on the Cross caused any annihilation. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Hi ImAHebrew,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Shabbat Shalom!

Thus far on this thread, the majority of those who claim to believe in their pseudo Jesus, these deny that the Cross of Our Messiah Yahushua is an instrument of waging war used by YAHWEH ELOHIM in order to bring about just a resolution between ELOHIM and man. Without this resolution, there can be no reconciliation.

Of course, you and I both know that historical, traditional Christianity teaches that this reconciliation is brought about through the substitutional death of their Jesus who died in their stead to pay the penalty for all their sins. Naturally, if someone believes in substitutionalism, then no such believer desires to examine any alternate view of the Cross (like atpollard). Any other idea of the Cross directly challenges the very core or heart of their belief system.

You and I both know that the Apostle Paul in no uncertain terms taught that Yahushua died for all sins according to the Scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:1-3

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved (saved from what, if I my ask), if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Messiah died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Our Messiah Yahushua, HIMSELF, openly explained to HIS Disciples why HE must go up to Jerusalem right here:

Luke 18:31-33

31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of the Man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

And also right here:

Matthew 26:2

2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

Obviously, Our Messiah Yahushua knew prior to HIS suffering and death that HE would be crucified. I challenge all Christians to show me (I am a Missourian) how Messiah Yahushua knew according to the Scriptures that HE would be crucified? I do not leave this challenge with you, ImAHebrew, for I know that you understand the spiritual fulfillment of the Law. Rather, I would like, if you are so inclined (I know how busy you are), I would like you to show false Christianity according to the Scriptures whether or not YAHWEH ELOHIM in any fashion accepts substitutes for their disobedience. Thanking you in advance this Sabbath Day, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

Latuwr said:

Hi Everyone,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Shabbat Shalom!

Does Christianity have any real idea of how the ELOHIM go about fighting a War should THEY decide to do so? Most Christians have no understanding that the Cross was an act of war. Consider this scripture:

Hebrews 2:14
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Obviously, this scripture indicates that when the ELOHIM fight, THEIR fight is to the death. THEY hold nothing back. When THEY fight, it is total warfare. The ELOHIM seek rightly for the total destruction of THEIR enemies.

If we fully understood how the ELOHIM go about fighting in a spiritual sense, would this not help us to understand how we should fight our enemies in a physical sense? What do you think? Should Christianity love Islam to death, or should Christianity fight Islam in a physical sense to a no holds bar fight to the death according to the Scriptures?

Thanking any in advance that should be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

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There is how God and Christ would have people deal with their enemies -and there is how people choose to -or feel they must -deal with their enemies.


If Israel had continued to obey God, they would not have had to deal with their enemies....
Deu 28:7 The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
...... if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.
Deu 28:10 And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee.

Exo 23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
Exo 23:23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Exo 23:27 I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.
Exo 23:28 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.

Jos 24:12 And I sent the hornet before you, which drave them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites; but not with thy sword, nor with thy bow.

However.... Israel did not obey -and God gave them over to the sword for a purpose -until the time he would bring them back from the sword and from captivity.

Jer 20:4 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.

Amo 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
Amo 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

HOWEVER -God is dealing with all nations similarly.

God is not for one person or nation more than another -but all things will happen the way God declared they would.
God is no respecter of persons -but he did deal with Israel first -for HIS purpose -in ALL things.

The same things will happen to all nations -bad and good -but simply in the order God has decided.
If one gets thirsty and then gets a cup of water -and another then gets thirsty and then gets a cup of water -why should there be strife over who was first?
Why not compete over how to best live in peace together?

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


The truth is that the end of all warfare has already been written.

It is also true that the warfare which will now come to pass before that time has already been written.

Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

God brought the house of Judah to Jerusalem after WWII to accomplish HIS purpose for HIS name's sake.... but that is not to say he is pleased with all that they have since done.
They are being purified, but it is not yet finished. Soon, but not quite yet.

Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

Eze 20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
Eze 20:42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.
Eze 20:43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.
Eze 20:44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Judah will fight at Jerusalem -but part of the reason they will have to is that God is not pleased with some of their present ways.
The end of the extreme trouble which will soon happen to the world will be a blessing for all nations, but God has also said he would first plead with all flesh by the sword...

Jer 25:31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.


Isa 29:5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.
Isa 29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
Isa 29:7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
Isa 29:15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Isa 29:17 Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?

Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

There is one thing that will happen with men on earth -between Israel and other nations -and there is another thing which will happen with those who are made immortal.

Those who are made immortal at the return of Christ will be of ALL nations -and will reign with him over the whole earth -and the HUMANS which remain after this warfare will deal with human affairs. All, however, have the opportunity to eventually become immortal.

Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Mic 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
Mic 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Latuwr said:

Hi Prometheus11,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

You wrote:

"Christ, by example, died to win."

Actually, your statement is an oversimplification. My Messiah Yahushua, as I have already indicated on this thread, did not desire to physically die. Messiah sought from HIS Heavenly Father an alternative to HIS own physical death. Thus, Messiah Yahushua was not at all like the present day Muslim suicide bomber. HE did not kill HIMSELF in order to win. Rather, Messiah Yahushua used HIS own murder in order to kill multitudes in the Valley of Decision.

You further wrote:

"Mohammed, by example, killed to win."

I can agree with you here. Radical religionists for the most part seek to physically kill their opponents to gain or sustain supremacy. The problem with this activity is simply that all such winning is an allusion. All radicals whether they be Jews, Christians, Muslims, or of the various eastern religions, win nothing more than the grave for all their effort.

You concluded:

Muslims kill and Christians die and both win...according to their names.

Both Muslims and Christians have proved that they can kill, and both Muslims and Christians, barring physical death by violence, have proven over and over again that they all grow old, and eventually get sick and physically die. Thus, they actually through all their efforts win nothing in terms of LIFE.

How about you yourself, Prometheus11, do you yourself have any expectation of winning anything but physical death?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

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Yes.

Shalom Everyone, Latuwr has requested that I show (according to the Scriptures) how Elohim would not require or accept a "substitute" to suffer and die in the place of the disobedient. Almost all who claim "Jesus" as their saviour, will interpret the many scriptures that speak of the Cross, as a "substitutional" punishment and death (i.e. Isaiah 53:8 - the "stoke" that sinners were due, he took instead of them, to satisfy their debt). This doctrine of "substitutionalism" is so appealing to the disobedient, that once someone comes under the "delusion" of this false doctrine, it is very difficult to come out from under it. Here are a list of Scriptures (with comments in red), which should show that Elohim is not in the business of making the Righteous and Innocent (Messiah Yeshua), suffer in the PLACE of the Wicked, for the satisfaction of any debt, because Messiah Yeshua suffered and died ACCORDING to the Scriptures, not in opposition to them:

(Gen 18:23) Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?
(Gen 18:25) “Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” (The Judge of all the earth will even REFRAIN from slaying the wicked if it means the Righteous would NOT have to be unjustly treated/killed, through the slaying of those wicked ones.

(Ex 23:7) Keep thee far from a false matter; and the Innocent and Righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked. (Point blank, Elohim will not declare the wicked righteous if they follow the delusion (false matter) of their "substitutional" slaying of the Righteous and Innocent One.)

(Num 35:33) So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye [are]: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it. (Here again, the shedding of Blood defiles, and ONLY by the blood of the one who shed blood, can the land be cleansed, NOT by having a "substitute" shed their blood in the polluter's stead or place.)

(Deut 25:1) If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that [the judges] may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked. (Substitutionalist's believe the exact opposite of what is according to this Scripture, they believe the Righteous One should be condemned in their place, so that their wickedness can be justified. Shame on them!)

(Deut 27:25) Cursed [be] he that taketh reward to slay an Innocent Person. And all the people shall say, Amen. (Substitutionalist's believe they are rewarded through their subsitutional slaying of The Innocent One, and have no comprehension of the Curse that is upon them.)

(Prov 17:15) He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to Yahweh. (Yeshua, The Just One, should not have been condemned, and made to "stand" where He ought not [Mark 13:14], it is an ABOMINATION that causes complete and utter DESOLATION, along with justifying the wicked, in their wickedness).

(Prov 17:26) Also to punish the Just [is] not good, [nor] to strike the Prince for what is due. (Substitutionalist's should begin to understand that Punishing the Just (in their place) is not good, neither giving The Prince the "stroke" for what is due. What parent punishes their GOOD child so they can satisfy what is due to their wicked child?)

These are just a few of the Scriptures that should be considered when looking at the Messiah's role in suffering and dying "for" us, ACCORDING to the Scriptures, as the SOUL who sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20), NOT the SINLESS Soul of the Son of Man dying. Yeshua's role should not be used as a "substitutional" role, rather, His Role is the Role of The Messiah in saving SINNERS from being SINNERS. His Role is to bless us to TURN or FLEE from our iniquities (Acts of the Apostles 3:26). When a SINNER comes to a knowledge of the Truth about what THEIR iniquities did to Him (lifted Him up (John 8:28) in this Present Age (the Holy Place-Hebrews 9:8-9), and caused Him to stand upon the Cross, where He ought NOT (Mark 13:14 again), then that SINNER should FLEE to the Mountains of Righteousness (Matthew 24:16 & Psalms 36:6), and NOT turn back to a life (cloak/robe) of sin (Matthew 24:18 & 2 Peter 2:21). Please, let the reader understand about this Abomination which causes Desolation, and let them come out from under the strong delusion of "substitutionalism." Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Since I have been excluded by name :

1 Corinthians 15:1-11
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.




I stand with Paul.
I hold firm to that which is of "first importance": THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS.
Would you care to discuss 'grace', because I am left wondering whether it has the same meaning to you that it does to me?

Shalom.
God bless.

atpollard said:

Since I have been excluded by name :

1 Corinthians 15:1-11
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

I stand with Paul.
I hold firm to that which is of "first importance": THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS.
Would you care to discuss 'grace', because I am left wondering whether it has the same meaning to you that it does to me?

Shalom.
God bless.

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Shalom atpollard, I was responding to Latuwr's request, and I was including "all," which would for sure have included you. And yes, discussing "substitutionalism" and the error of it, surely Grace has to be brought into the discussion. What is your understanding of Grace, and how does it help you believe that "Christ" died as a substitute? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Ken Brown said:

Shalom atpollard, I was responding to Latuwr's request, and I was including "all," which would for sure have included you. And yes, discussing "substitutionalism" and the error of it, surely Grace has to be brought into the discussion. What is your understanding of Grace, and how does it help you believe that "Christ" died as a substitute? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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I am unsure from your discussion why Christ died, except because the OT said so.
You seemed to be calling for 'Christians' (those following after Jesus) to live a life of holiness.
It is not how grace fits in with substitutionism that I am concerned over. It appears that you may be advocating a sanctification based on works that requires no grace ... that has me concerned.
Am I expected to be holy and earn a place in heaven, or is my daily walk one of grace (unmerited favor)?

In the simplest terms possible ...
... Am I accepted by God because of my obedience or His grace?

atpollard said:

I am unsure from your discussion why Christ died, except because the OT said so.
You seemed to be calling for 'Christians' (those following after Jesus) to live a life of holiness.
It is not how grace fits in with substitutionism that I am concerned over. It appears that you may be advocating a sanctification based on works that requires no grace ... that has me concerned.
Am I expected to be holy and earn a place in heaven, or is my daily walk one of grace (unmerited favor)?

In the simplest terms possible ...
... Am I accepted by God because of my obedience or His grace?

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Shalom atpollard, most who accept "substutitionalism" have an understanding of Grace that is different from what Paul taught. Jude speaks of those who accept "substutitionalism" here:

(Jude 1:4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the Grace of our Elohim into lasciviousness, and denying the only Sovereign Elohim, and our Master, Messiah Yeshua.

This wantonness to do whatever one desires, because they feel Elohim's Grace accommodates sin, is grounded in "substitutionalism." With the traditional view that christianity has concerning Grace, they ALLOW for sinners to REMAIN in their sin, because they fear being labeled as trying to "earn" their way into heaven. The purpose for Elohim's Grace is to TEACH sinners to no longer remain IN sin, and to FLEE (1 Corinthians 6:18, 1 Timothy 6:11, 1 Corinthians 10:14, 1 Peter 3:10-12) from it:

Tit 2:11-15
(11) For the Grace of Elohim has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
(12) instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
(13) looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great Elohim and Savior, Messiah Yeshua,
(14) who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
(15) These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

My question for you atpollard, please explain how you are made righteous, just exactly what makes you righteous in Elohim's sight? Does your righteousness come as a result of you hearing something, or is it the result of you somehow doing the Law (Romans 2:13, 1 John 3:7)? And another similar question, are you familiar with how you can DO the Law by FAITH, and not by WORKS? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Ken Brown said:

Shalom atpollard, most who accept "substutitionalism" have an understanding of Grace that is different from what Paul taught. Jude speaks of those who accept "substutitionalism" here:

(Jude 1:4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the Grace of our Elohim into lasciviousness, and denying the only Sovereign Elohim, and our Master, Messiah Yeshua.

This wantonness to do whatever one desires, because they feel Elohim's Grace accommodates sin, is grounded in "substitutionalism." With the traditional view that christianity has concerning Grace, they ALLOW for sinners to REMAIN in their sin, because they fear being labeled as trying to "earn" their way into heaven. The purpose for Elohim's Grace is to TEACH sinners to no longer remain IN sin, and to FLEE (1 Corinthians 6:18, 1 Timothy 6:11, 1 Corinthians 10:14, 1 Peter 3:10-12) from it:

Tit 2:11-15
(11) For the Grace of Elohim has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
(12) instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
(13) looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great Elohim and Savior, Messiah Yeshua,
(14) who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
(15) These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

My question for you atpollard, please explain how you are made righteous, just exactly what makes you righteous in Elohim's sight? Does your righteousness come as a result of you hearing something, or is it the result of you somehow doing the Law (Romans 2:13, 1 John 3:7)? And another similar question, are you familiar with how you can DO the Law by FAITH, and not by WORKS? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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With all due respect, you know nothing of me, of my life, of the sins that I have been forgiven of, of my efforts to be righteous in my own strength, of the grace and mercy Christ has shown me, of the gratitude I feel for his love or of the freedom it has given me from the need to strive in vain to earn I love that I can never earn, but the freedom to do what the law commands, constrained by love not fear. I need earn nothing.

I do not accept your erroneous definition of who I am or what I believe.
I note that for all your 'Jewish' affects, you do not bother to clearly identify any faith or belief as your own.
I do not wish to spend vast quantities of time debating shadows and playing guessing games.

I leave you with Galatians 5 and my assurance that I have no desire to take up your yolk of empty legalism.

Galatians 5:1-12
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

atpollard said:

With all due respect, you know nothing of me, of my life, of the sins that I have been forgiven of, of my efforts to be righteous in my own strength, of the grace and mercy Christ has shown me, of the gratitude I feel for his love or of the freedom it has given me from the need to strive in vain to earn I love that I can never earn, but the freedom to do what the law commands, constrained by love not fear. I need earn nothing.

I do not accept your erroneous definition of who I am or what I believe.
I note that for all your 'Jewish' affects, you do not bother to clearly identify any faith or belief as your own.
I do not wish to spend vast quantities of time debating shadows and playing guessing games.

I leave you with Galatians 5 and my assurance that I have no desire to take up your yolk of empty legalism.

Galatians 5:1-12
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

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Shalom atpollard, please take no offense from me (Psalms 119:165), for it is not my desire to disrespect you. You are not very aware of what you are up against, but the One True Gospel, which "opens" the Spiritual side of the Law, helps to explain the Grace of Elohim. You see, the Law demands that sinners sacrifice, and by and through the Grace of Elohim, He has allowed ALL men to sacrifice Yeshua, thus fulfilling what the Law requires that sinners do. This mercy and Grace allows a sinner to SEE what their sin did accomplish, the suffering and death of the Messiah, and that sin is TURNED into RIGHTEOUSNESS (a Spiritual DOING of the Law, not by WORKS, but rather by FAITH). Atpollard, it takes FAITH to acknowledge that Yeshua is YOUR sacrifice, and that YOU (with the help of wicked/lawless men - Acts of the Apostles 2:23) did SLAY Him in IGNORANCE (Acts of the Apostles 3:17), and this your sin is turned INTO righteousness (doing with the Law required you to do). as a FREE Gift (Elohim's Grace). The Knowledge of This Truth, causes you to FLEE from you sin as you can no longer dwell in sin, Sacrificing Yeshua, and that is what the Grace of Elohim TEACHES (Titus 2:11-14). Does that make any sense at all, as it has NOTHING to do with substitutionalism. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew. BTW, Happy New Moon.

outhouse said:

The cross is the sign of death, not war. It was a torture rack.

Now you wish to turn it into something it is not?

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I remember a comedian saying it would be eerie if we wore electric chair symbols around our necks. But that is essentially what wearing a cross around your neck is.

psychoslice said:

The cross was a metaphor for realizing our true Self, and more or less nailing the carnal self down, so it doesn't control our life. that simple. well to me anyhow.

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This thinking is, again, exactly what the Baha'i teach. Ha. The carnal self is "satan" and the true self is Godly.

Hi Etritonakin,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Thank you for your reply and your study. There are several areas in which I am moved to seek further clarification from you. Do you recognize that a distinction exists between the House of Judah and the House of Israel as they are written about in the OT Scriptures? Both Houses were carried away into captivity, but only the House of Judah returned from her captivity. Accordingly, in what manner can the House of Israel return to the Land of Israel or to physical Jerusalem as you seem to expect in your post? Consider your quote of Ezekiel 20:41-44. How does YAHWEH go about gathering together the lost sons and daughters of the House of Israel? Don't get me wrong right here, I am all in favor of this gathering, but what is the process by which YAHWEH gathers us?

Should you be moved to answer this issue, then you may be forced to recognize that the House of Israel has no identity in this world. Wherever we are now found, are we not found to be Gentiles? So, how does YAHWEH find us among the nations? And even more so, why and how does YAHWEH make a New Covenant with us as promised right here:

Jeremiah 31:33-34

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YAHWEH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their ELOHIM, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YAHWEH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YAHWEH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And also right here:

Ezekiel 37:21-22

21 And say unto them, Thus saith ADONOY YAHWEH; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

This gathering unites both Houses in a covenant of peace, that is, both Jews and Gentiles are united as one by YAHWEH (see Ezekiel 37:26-28). Who in your estimation are the Mountains of Israel, and who in all the world is their one KING, and where is this LAND to which we are brought and in which we are united as one?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

Hi Prometheus11,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

I asked you:

"How about you yourself, Prometheus11, do you yourself have any expectation of winning anything but physical death?"

And you graciously answered with this reply:

"Yes."

I must say, very concise and not overly expressive.

Thanking you for your input, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr