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Favorite Bible error

Rise

Well-Known Member
I would be more amenable to listening if the lie didn't continue to be spread that Satan is in that story. I worship the Truth. Those who don't understand what that is won't get far with me.

Then your problem is not with me but with what the Bible says:
Revelation 12:9
Revelation 12:15
Revelation 20:2-3
2 Corinthians 11:3

I take issue with your paraphrases because they are an obvious distortion of the message of the scripture and do not remotely represent what the text plainly says. If you had quoted the scriptures directly in your post, instead of giving only your own paraphrases as an substitute for scripture, then it would have been clear how the two don't line up - You would have disproven your point with your own scripture references.

It is dishonest to distort the plain reading of scripture by hiding it behind a paraphrase that does not actually reflect what the scripture says - Whether by willful intention or by uncaring negligence, such behavior is ultimately disrespectful to the very concept of truth you claim to worship.
 
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atpollard

Active Member
Curious item at John12:23....
Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds........

Wrong...... If it dies, it dies and doesn't produce seed.
Steer clear of poetry if you react this badly to all similes, metaphors and verbal symbolism. ;)

“i am a little church (no great cathedral)
far from the splendor and squalor of hurrying cities
--i do not worry if briefer days grow briefest,
i am not sorry when sun and rain make april

my life is the life of the reaper and the sower;
my prayers are prayers of earth's own clumsily striving
(finding and losing and laughing and crying) children
whose any sadness or joy is my grief or my gladness

around me surges a miracle of unceasing
birth and glory and death and resurrection:
over my sleeping self float flaming symbols
of hope, and i wake to a perfect patience of mountains

i am a little church (far from the frantic
world with its rapture and anguish) at peace with nature
--i do not worry if longer nights grow longest;
i am not sorry when silence becomes singing

winter by spring, i lift my diminutive spire to
merciful Him Whose only now is forever:
standing erect in the deathless truth of His presence
(welcoming humbly His light and proudly His darkness)”


-e.e. cummings
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
the fact that God should be the most wise being in the universe yet in the old testament is more moody than zeus
is the more compassionate and just being in the universe yet he commits and orders all kind of genocides in the whole old testament.
in the old testament he cares only for the jews, killing and cursing whoever is crossing their road, yet he let his son die ( by the hands of the jews themselves ) for all mankind.
so, basically i think the best contraddiction i like from the bible is god himself.

You don't have the intelligence to figure things out, do you? Quit relying on your limited intelligence whenever spiritual matters are concerned. The Tree of Knowledge is something that the same day you eat of it, the same day you shall surely die.

That said. Is it a physical death a misery? Relatively it's not comparing to an eternal hell. You have to die once anyway
So God's effort here is to pull back some souls. If you are standing in His way to do so He will remove you with no mercy. That's what He did to the Canaanites.

If you truly have the intelligence you probably notice that His every move is an inevitable necessity.
 
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cambridge79

Active Member
You don't have the intelligence to figure things out, do you? Quit relying on your limited intelligence whenever spiritual matters are concerned. The Tree of Knowledge is something that the same day you eat of it, the same day you shall surely die.

That said. Is it a physical death a misery? Relatively it's not comparing to an eternal hell. You have to die once anyway
So God's effort here is to pull back some souls. If you are standing in His way to do so He will remove you with no mercy. That's what He did to the Canaanites.

If you truly have the intelligence you probably notice that His every move is an inevitable necessity.

inevitable necessity? he flooded the ****ing whole world sparing only a family because people to who he never even revealed weren't actually following him. How could that possibly be an inevitable necessity?
i find it very interesting that judging this forum the users more prone to insulting people are the users who tend to justify religious related murders. It's full of very bad people here.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
inevitable necessity? he flooded the ****ing whole world sparing only a family because people to who he never even revealed weren't actually following him. How could that possibly be an inevitable necessity?

So you apply your freaking intelligence again.

Noah's situation is a necessary measure to demonstrate with open witnessing that humans cannot pass the judgment of Law without a covenant (if you know what it is).

Do you read Bible or not. It is hinted that the spirits in Noah's age, somehow, could possibly be saved by the New Covenant which Jesus preached during His 2 to 3 days of stay in Hades.
 

cambridge79

Active Member
So you apply your freaking intelligence again.

Noah's situation is a necessary measure to demonstrate with open witnessing that humans cannot pass the judgment of Law without a covenant (if you know what it is).

I love how you see to "apply intelligence" as a bad things that's very telling.
By the way is a thing that after the flood nobody was still actually aware about since the revelation was something limited to a very small geographical area so it not only was inevitable but also useless.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
I love how you see to "apply intelligence" as a bad things that's very telling.
By the way is a thing that after the flood nobody was still actually aware about since the revelation was something limited to a very small geographical area so it not only was inevitable but also useless.

That depends. Your intelligence is given for the dealing of this reality, not the next reality. You applied your freaking intelligence in a wrong way.
 

cambridge79

Active Member
That depends. Your intelligence is given for the dealing of this reality, not the next reality. You applied your freaking intelligence in a wrong way.

like for example that if noah's family was the only survivors of the flood it makes no sense that people in america and australia had no clues of the Jew god till christians appeared and told them about him because however they moved from noah's land to their land they would have brought their myths with them. And if they forgot in the process about their myths ( wich would be unlikely since so few time would have passed ) than again the flood was pointless.

just a question are you talking about the symbolic meaning of the flood episode or you really believe the flood happened and i'm talking to a Young earth creationist?
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Jesus, after his alleged resurrection, apparently said that he required his Gentiles disciples to obey in the same ways as his Jewish apostles were commanded to do (Matthew 28:18-20). Paul apparently wrote that Gentiles possess a different standard of mere "belief", and should and cannot obey what the Jews were responsible for.
 

cambridge79

Active Member
Jesus, after his alleged resurrection, apparently said that he required his Gentiles disciples to obey in the same ways as his Jewish apostles were commanded to do (Matthew 28:18-20). Paul apparently wrote that Gentiles possess a different standard of mere "belief", and should and cannot obey what the Jews were responsible for.

whenever a company needs new clients they make special offers for the new comers.....
 

miodrag

Member
Then your problem is not with me but with what the Bible says:
Revelation 12:9
Revelation 12:15
Revelation 20:2-3
2 Corinthians 11:3

I believe that this:
... that Satan is in that story
addresses the story in the Old Testament. While all your quotes are from the New Testament. And that is exactly to be expected if we consider what Elaine Pagels wrote in her "The Origin of Satan":

"Rereading biblical and extra-biblical accounts of angels, I learned first of all what many scholars have pointed out: that while angels often appear in the Hebrew Bible, Satan, along with other fallen angels or demonic beings, is virtually absent. But among certain first-century Jewish groups, prominently including the Essenes (who saw themselves as allied with angels) and the followers of Jesus, the figure variously called Satan, Beelzebub, or Belial also began to take on central importance."
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
I believe that this:

addresses the story in the Old Testament. While all your quotes are from the New Testament.

As a follower of Jesus, I believe the apostle John gives us an accurate view of who Satan is, and that this was gained by direct divine revelation. So of course I have no problem turning to the New Testament to establish greater understanding of things not directly addressed in the Old Testament.

And that is exactly to be expected if we consider what Elaine Pagels wrote in her "The Origin of Satan":

"Rereading biblical and extra-biblical accounts of angels, I learned first of all what many scholars have pointed out: that while angels often appear in the Hebrew Bible, Satan, along with other fallen angels or demonic beings, is virtually absent. But among certain first-century Jewish groups, prominently including the Essenes (who saw themselves as allied with angels) and the followers of Jesus, the figure variously called Satan, Beelzebub, or Belial also began to take on central importance."

Jesus cast out Demons and referred to them as real beings. He told His followers they would do the same (mark 16:17), and there are countless numbers of Christians who do just that today. That in itself is enough to establish their reality for one who believes in Jesus, and even for many who don't believe in Jesus once they see demons manifest in the physical. So this is not merely an academic issue of who believed what and when, because we see them evidenced today in our world.

Regardless; I can also show that her idea of demonic beings having no representation in the Old Testament is not true.

1 Chronicles 21:1 refers to Satan as one who entices David to do wrong.
We see Satan in the story of Job, Job 1:7. Here he is the one who questions and accuses not just Job, but God Himself, by suggesting God's assessment of Job is wrong. That is the same thing the serpent did in the Garden - questioning God and accusing Him.
Zechariah 3:1-2 also shows Satan coming to accuse the high priest.
In the new testament we see him referred to as the accuser of the bretheren. Revelation 12:10

The Greek Seputagint translates many parts of the Old Testament with "diamoniois" or "diamonion", a word for Demon.
Deuteronomy 32:17
Psalm 106:37
Leviticus 17:7
It is a word associated with false gods. Which is not inconsistent with the New Testament view of demons. Most Christians who believe in Demons would recognize that people who pray to false gods and idols are in fact praying to demons (evil spirits) represented by those idols.

The Old Testament also has many references to evil spirits causing problems, like 1 Samuel 16:14. The only difference is that in the Old Testament is says these are from the Lord. Which most would interpret as God allowing them to have their way to bring correction or judgement. In the same way God is said to use the Assyrians to bring judgement upon Israel, yet God assures that the Assyrians will be punished for the evil intent of their heart. Essentially we see that God's form of judgement upon Israel is to remove his hedge of protection (psalm 81) and allow the Assyrians to fulfill the evil intent of their heart against an Israel that has forsaken God His laws.
Isaiah 10:5-7
Isaiah 10:12

Leviticus 16:8 also uses the term Azazel. This was a fallen angel in the book of Enoch. The The Syraic Pe****ta understood this term to mean "the strong one against God". And the Greek Seputagint understood this term to mean "the sent away one". The later fits in which what we see in Revelation of Satan being the Dragon who is cast out. It also fits with satan being shown in scripture to be one who is standing against God.
 
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miodrag

Member
Regardless; I can also show that her idea of demonic beings having no representation in the Old Testament is not true.
YOU can show? Can you rather point to someone more credible?
And what "demonic beings", that is far too vague and not the issue. Are they good or bad? Point is that in Christianity they are bad, not so in Judaism. Not in Old Testament. In short:

Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress
More at: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan

In essence, Satan is an agent of God, and has no free will or independent existence.
More at: https://outreachjudaism.org/who-is-satan/

So, not Satan, but sin is your enemy, Satan is just God's messenger. And please don't shoot the messenger. But if you insist on Satan being your enemy, then keep this reminder handy:

Matthew 5:44 "But I tell you, love your enemies"
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Then your problem is not with me but with what the Bible says:
Revelation 12:9
Revelation 12:15
Revelation 20:2-3
2 Corinthians 11:3

I take issue with your paraphrases because they are an obvious distortion of the message of the scripture and do not remotely represent what the text plainly says. If you had quoted the scriptures directly in your post, instead of giving only your own paraphrases as an substitute for scripture, then it would have been clear how the two don't line up - You would have disproven your point with your own scripture references.

It is dishonest to distort the plain reading of scripture by hiding it behind a paraphrase that does not actually reflect what the scripture says - Whether by willful intention or by uncaring negligence, such behavior is ultimately disrespectful to the very concept of truth you claim to worship.
I take issue with the author of those passages. Revelations wasn't always going to be in the canon, you know. It was debated. We can't just take every stoner outlook as "gospel".

I am not misrepresenting the fact Satan is NOT in the story of Adam and Eve. You are trusting biblical authors who have noted that stupid people are blessed because only stupid people can believe them. It's like how Trump flat out tells people they are supremely stupid for liking him and they APPLAUD. Don't you have more self-esteem than to be insulted within "praise"?

I worship the Truth. Jesus told me to judge a tree by its fruit. The problem soon became that I could no longer ignore just how rotten even biblical fruit was. Go read the Quran if you want everyone's characterizations white-washed to make them more "noble". In the bible, EVERYONE HAS ISSUES.

As a follower of Jesus, I believe the apostle John gives us an accurate view of who Satan is, and that this was gained by direct divine revelation. So of course I have no problem turning to the New Testament to establish greater understanding of things not directly addressed in the Old Testament.
It's a free country after all. I just think that when NT authors lie (to be fair, at best maybe they were using non-canon sources we do not have, which would make them only right in the sources they used, not objectively), it should be called out. Ask yourself if it's Jesus you follow, or Paul and John.

Jesus cast out Demons and referred to them as real beings. He told His followers they would do the same (mark 16:17), and there are countless numbers of Christians who do just that today. That in itself is enough to establish their reality for one who believes in Jesus, and even for many who don't believe in Jesus once they see demons manifest in the physical. So this is not merely an academic issue of who believed what and when, because we see them evidenced today in our world.
Demons also said that Jesus was the one sent from God. Since demons lie ...

This is why Jesus needs to really keep tabs on what he says. After all, anyone who calls someone a "fool" is going to hell, but Jesus said the Jewish clergy were foolish, so ...
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
I take issue with the author of those passages. Revelations wasn't always going to be in the canon, you know. It was debated. We can't just take every stoner outlook as "gospel".

This seems to be a popular myth, but the reality is quite the opposite. Revelation has better 2nd and 3rd century attestation to it's authenticity than most New Testament books (Meaning, the number of sources that cite it as being scripture or quote from it as scripture). Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, the Muratorian Fragment, Hippolytus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Tertullian all witness to it as authentic scripture and that it was written by the apostle John. The fact that there seems to be no confusion about who wrote it in the early church is also significant.

You don't actually see any recorded objection to the book of Revelation until the 3rd century; and that is because someone had theological objections to it - not because they had any real historical reason to believe the apostle John had not written it.

An accusation of Revelation's questionable canoncity would stand on firmer ground if the historical witness was even partially silent or uncertain about the canonicity of Revelation. However, we see the expect opposite: Very early and strong attestation to it, with no source claiming it to be spurious or questionable and it's referenced by more sources of that period than most other books in the New Testament. By comparison, Revelation is on extremely firm ground.

So it's misleading to say that Revelation's canonicity was "debated" when no such debate could said to have taken place until two hundred years later, and even then was resolved before the century was over.. Everything we have would suggest that Revelation was established scripture with a known author but then later someone wants to throw it out because they objected to it's content (sound familiar?).

I am not misrepresenting the fact Satan is NOT in the story of Adam and Eve.
Revelation says he is. You're arguing with scripture, not me.

You are trusting biblical authors who have noted that stupid people are blessed because only stupid people can believe them.

You are once again misrepresenting what scripture says by dishonestly summarizing it's content.
You'll find no scripture that supports your accusation. Go ahead and try to quote some.

I worship the Truth.

I would think then that you would care more about accurately representing what the Bible says when you summarize it's content.

Jesus told me to judge a tree by its fruit. The problem soon became that I could no longer ignore just how rotten even biblical fruit was. Go read the Quran if you want everyone's characterizations white-washed to make them more "noble". In the bible, EVERYONE HAS ISSUES.

I'm not sure what you mean by judging Biblical fruit. Are you talking about the people in the Bible?

Of course everyone but Jesus in the Bible has issues - That's what we would expect to find in a real book about real people involved in real history.

Part of why we see the Bible record people's failings as well as their triumphs is so that we can learn from their failures and take heart from the fact that even flawed and broken people can be redeemed, changed for the better, and used by God.

Why would you see that as a problem?

I just think that when NT authors lie (to be fair, at best maybe they were using non-canon sources we do not have, which would make them only right in the sources they used, not objectively), it should be called out.

Is there a single thing in the New Testament you could prove to be a lie?

Ask yourself if it's Jesus you follow, or Paul and John.

I have, and found that everything Jesus said lines up with everything Paul and John said in their letters. It's the same God, same Jesus, and the same Gospel.

If you think they aren't giving the same message than you're welcome to try quoting scripture that would demonstrate that.

This is why Jesus needs to really keep tabs on what he says. After all, anyone who calls someone a "fool" is going to hell, but Jesus said the Jewish clergy were foolish, so ...

I can understand why that might confuse you, however, this merely comes from a misunderstanding on your part about the words being used and their context.

Matthew 5:22 and Luke 11:40 use different words that are translated into English as fool. Raka vs Aphrones. The former is a term of derision and contempt, more akin today to how we'd use a curse word or racial slur, which in it's context reflects that someone is wrong for holding hate in their heart towards their brother which is reflected by their using this word. The later is merely a term that simply means foolish, without reason, senseless, etc.

This is why some translations leave "raka" untranslated in Matthew 5:22, because there's no direct English equivalent for it. Translating it as fool is not the best choice.
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
YOU can show? Can you rather point to someone more credible?

Yes. I pointed to scripture itself.

And what "demonic beings", that is far too vague and not the issue. Are they good or bad? Point is that in Christianity they are bad, not so in Judaism. Not in Old Testament. In short:

In the passages I quoted you, the beings referred to as "diamoniois" (demons) are definitely said to be bad.

You also seemed to miss where I pointed out that "evil spirits" are found throughout the Bible. The Hebrew word "rah" (translated evil) means bad by definition.

So, not Satan, but sin is your enemy, Satan is just God's messenger. And please don't shoot the messenger. But if you insist on Satan being your enemy, then keep this reminder handy:

That theory falls apart when you realize that satan questions God and accuses Him of being wrong or a liar in Job.
He further accuses the High Priest in Zechariah 3, yet the Lord rebukes Satan for doing so.

What kind of messenger (angel) of God would call Him a liar and have to be rebuked by Him? Sounds like the kind of behavior that is consistent with someone who rebelled against God and was cast out of Heaven.

This is why we can link Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 with Revelation as descriptions of Satan's rebellion and fall, because they are drawing prophetic parallels between what happened to Satan and what will happen to his earthly followers.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
Jesus, after his alleged resurrection, apparently said that he required his Gentiles disciples to obey in the same ways as his Jewish apostles were commanded to do (Matthew 28:18-20). Paul apparently wrote that Gentiles possess a different standard of mere "belief", and should and cannot obey what the Jews were responsible for.

I believe your assessment of what Paul says to be incorrect. Paul simply says there is no standard to be followed only faith in Jesus. This is understandable since the law is not above the Master but the Master above the law. This way the law is what Jesus says it is not what is interpreted by men from ancient writings.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I believe your assessment of what Paul says to be incorrect. Paul simply says there is no standard to be followed only faith in Jesus. This is understandable since the law is not above the Master but the Master above the law. This way the law is what Jesus says it is not what is interpreted by men from ancient writings.


no one can be above the Law, that would create hypocrisy. you can be subject to the Law, or within, but nothing is above it.
 
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