Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
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Universal Salvation
- Thread starter sparc872
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Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
Hmmm, I looked into those verses. I will bring it up in sunday school class next chance I get, and see what feedback I get. I'm really not sure about this, but I'll get back.
Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
Documentation for that verse please (where did you get it?).
Ody
Well-Known Member
Mister_T said:
Uhh, let me remind you i remember the whole concept of "deeds and faith", but YOU STILL NEED FAITH! CAN SOMEONE POINT ME TO A CHURCH CANNON OTHER THAN LDS THAT SAYS NON BELIEVERS ATTAIN SALVATION!
(bolded cus i actually want it answered, i am curious if there is another other than uu christians and or quakers and lds.)
Booko
Deviled Hen
Christiangirl0909 said:
Sorry CG...I thought about putting in the cite, but figured you'd probably run across it before. No matter. You'll want to go read the wider context of course. Standalone verses can mean so many things. Anyway, here it is:
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (KJV)
sparc872
Active Member
Go and read 1 Timothy 4:9-11.
It says straight up, "This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe." NIV
Now why would it say Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe unless it meant that he was going to save everybody?
There are countless times in the Bible where it says that whatever God wants, God gets. It says that God wants to save all men. So why would someone think that God is incapable of doing it?
So keeping that in mind, we have to ask how Hell in the Bible fits in. If you look at translations of the Bible over the years you'll notice that the occurence of the word Hell has been decreasing over time. The reason for this is a better understanding of Biblical texts and what the true meaning of words are.
One of the words used in the New Testament for Hell is Gehenna. Gehenna is a place outside of Jerusalem, a dump. A place familiar to the Jews (not the Gentiles, Gehenna would have been pointless mentioning to a Gentile outside of Jerusalem) that Jesus preached to. It was used in the Old Testament as a dump, so why should it's meaning as a geographical place change in the New Testament?
Do some reading, look at some websites that I mentioned earlier, and I think you'll start to see why the concept of universal salvation makes so much more sense than Eternal salvation/Damnation.
Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
Yes, of course. I just wanted to read the verse in full context. Thankies.
sparc872
Active Member
Unitarian Universalists to some extent believe in Universal Salvation. I think the United Church of Christ does so as well. Beyond those, I can't think of too many denominations as a whole that believe in the doctrine of Universal Salvation, however, there are a lot of individual churches out there that do. I had a website that has a database of churches across the US that teach it, but I can't find it right now.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Just to point out: Unitarian Universalists are not a Christian denomination.sparc872 said:
valorforGod
New Member
God is a God of love, as the Bible rightly upholds. He created us, sustains us, and is there for us. He continues to allow us to breathe, move, talk, think, be creative, etc. He loved us so much that He did indeed die for us as the Scriptures state. Jesus, Son of God, God Himself, lived amongst us for 33 years as fully human and fully God, died upon a Roman cross, and rose from the dead 3 days later as He said He would. Jesus did all that so that we could be forgiven of our sins (all the wrong things we think and do in our lives) and live with Him in Heaven when we pass on from this life to the next. That is God being loving, as He always said He was and will continue to be forever.
At the same time, without being less loving, He is also a God of Justice, who hates sin and the effects of sin upon our lives and the rest of His creation. Our sin separates us from God. He said Himself that He cannot even be in the same place as sin. Because He is holy and just. As a result of our waywardness and sinfullness of missing the mark He set up for us, we are rightly condemned as sinners deserving of punishment. That punishment is hell. Originally, hell was designed for satan and the other angels who decided to rebell against God and His perfect ways. But we, as the human race, decided to also rebell against God and His perfect ways, the perfect marks He set up for us. He made us to follow Him and be in perfect relationship with Him. But Adam and Eve, along with all the rest of us since [excluding Jesus, of course], have willfully stepped out of the path God wanted for us and the perfect relationship He made us for and decided to live our own lives apart from Him, without marks to follow, without absolutes, but allowing ourselves to believe that we decide what is right and wrong, not God. So, we rightly deserve hell. In a sense, we have selected it as what we wanted in the first place: a place where God is not. Where we are separated from Him forever. Unfortunately for those who choose this, they get all of it, not just the part they thought they wanted. Yes, you get the separation from God, but also get everything else that God Himself designed into hell: eternal fire, eternal worms, eternal darkness, eternal life trapped in the thing you chose.
God has given us an escape from hell and all it is. He doesn't want any of us to choose hell and separation from God. That's where His love comes in. He didn't design anything for hell. The entire reason He made it was for punishment of those rebelling against His perfect ways. He didn't want rebellion in the first place, but unfortunately, satan and a part of the angels and then us decided to rebell. Thus God, the God of love and justice, made an eternal jail, an eternal punishment, for those rebelling against Him. For we are eternal beings. From the moment we were created in our mother's womb, we were eternal. God built us that way from the start. So, since our souls live eternally, we have two eternal places to choose from: Heaven or hell. God loved us so much that He gave us His only Son (Jesus Christ) to live amongst us, die for us, and be raised from the dead for us, so that if we accept the free gift that Jesus offers us (this gift being forgiveness of our own sins and eternal life through Jesus and Jesus alone) and allow God to be Lord over our lives, we escape eternal punishment in hell. We are saved from it.
Unfortunately, not all humans are going to accept this free gift that God offers. Some won't because of pride, others outright rebellion, others perhaps fear, others because they think it's too simple; that they've got to somehow earn their way to Heaven. But we can't and don't have to; Jesus paid the price for us already. He satisfied God's justice by dying in our stead, and because He Himself was the only perfect human to ever live, death had no claim to Him (for death comes and only can hold down those who have sinned). Jesus never sinned, but God the Father allowed His Son to die for us and take the punishment meant for us because of our sin. So, Jesus already did the work for us. Why make it any harder? Just accept what Jesus has done and believe that God did raise Him from the dead, and believe and accept that Jesus is Lord and Savior of us all, and you will be saved from hell, from darkness, and from your own sins. Tell God all of this, and you are saved. Then, go and tell somebody else so that they too can be saved. Live it out everyday. Be a real Christian, not just one in name only.
God loves you all ever so much. He died for you, He lives for you, He's always there for you. All you have to do is cry out to Him and believe and accept Him and what He offers, and you will not have to walk through hell's gates, but through the pearly gates of Heaven, where there will be no more tears or sadness or anger or hate or hurt anymore. Where God Himself will walk and talk with you face to face for all eternity. Amen!
I know it's long winded, but I hope and pray that it answers some questions. I have Bible verses to back up these claims. If you wish to know them, please ask. I will post them up for you.
At the same time, without being less loving, He is also a God of Justice, who hates sin and the effects of sin upon our lives and the rest of His creation. Our sin separates us from God. He said Himself that He cannot even be in the same place as sin. Because He is holy and just. As a result of our waywardness and sinfullness of missing the mark He set up for us, we are rightly condemned as sinners deserving of punishment. That punishment is hell. Originally, hell was designed for satan and the other angels who decided to rebell against God and His perfect ways. But we, as the human race, decided to also rebell against God and His perfect ways, the perfect marks He set up for us. He made us to follow Him and be in perfect relationship with Him. But Adam and Eve, along with all the rest of us since [excluding Jesus, of course], have willfully stepped out of the path God wanted for us and the perfect relationship He made us for and decided to live our own lives apart from Him, without marks to follow, without absolutes, but allowing ourselves to believe that we decide what is right and wrong, not God. So, we rightly deserve hell. In a sense, we have selected it as what we wanted in the first place: a place where God is not. Where we are separated from Him forever. Unfortunately for those who choose this, they get all of it, not just the part they thought they wanted. Yes, you get the separation from God, but also get everything else that God Himself designed into hell: eternal fire, eternal worms, eternal darkness, eternal life trapped in the thing you chose.
God has given us an escape from hell and all it is. He doesn't want any of us to choose hell and separation from God. That's where His love comes in. He didn't design anything for hell. The entire reason He made it was for punishment of those rebelling against His perfect ways. He didn't want rebellion in the first place, but unfortunately, satan and a part of the angels and then us decided to rebell. Thus God, the God of love and justice, made an eternal jail, an eternal punishment, for those rebelling against Him. For we are eternal beings. From the moment we were created in our mother's womb, we were eternal. God built us that way from the start. So, since our souls live eternally, we have two eternal places to choose from: Heaven or hell. God loved us so much that He gave us His only Son (Jesus Christ) to live amongst us, die for us, and be raised from the dead for us, so that if we accept the free gift that Jesus offers us (this gift being forgiveness of our own sins and eternal life through Jesus and Jesus alone) and allow God to be Lord over our lives, we escape eternal punishment in hell. We are saved from it.
Unfortunately, not all humans are going to accept this free gift that God offers. Some won't because of pride, others outright rebellion, others perhaps fear, others because they think it's too simple; that they've got to somehow earn their way to Heaven. But we can't and don't have to; Jesus paid the price for us already. He satisfied God's justice by dying in our stead, and because He Himself was the only perfect human to ever live, death had no claim to Him (for death comes and only can hold down those who have sinned). Jesus never sinned, but God the Father allowed His Son to die for us and take the punishment meant for us because of our sin. So, Jesus already did the work for us. Why make it any harder? Just accept what Jesus has done and believe that God did raise Him from the dead, and believe and accept that Jesus is Lord and Savior of us all, and you will be saved from hell, from darkness, and from your own sins. Tell God all of this, and you are saved. Then, go and tell somebody else so that they too can be saved. Live it out everyday. Be a real Christian, not just one in name only.
God loves you all ever so much. He died for you, He lives for you, He's always there for you. All you have to do is cry out to Him and believe and accept Him and what He offers, and you will not have to walk through hell's gates, but through the pearly gates of Heaven, where there will be no more tears or sadness or anger or hate or hurt anymore. Where God Himself will walk and talk with you face to face for all eternity. Amen!
I know it's long winded, but I hope and pray that it answers some questions. I have Bible verses to back up these claims. If you wish to know them, please ask. I will post them up for you.
Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
He was talking directly to his followers, saying that he was going to prepare a mansion for them specifically, I believe. After reading the verse in it's full context, that is.
I believe in a hell-realm and a heaven-realm, and that both are temporary. The only thing that is ever-lasting is buddha-nature, which is the base nature of everyone.
I guess that means that I, too, believe that eventually all of us will become fully realized Buddhas - and therefore similar to what is described in the phrase "universal salvation."
I know that sounds off-kilter, saying that heaven isn't eternal - but from what many Christians believe with heaven, that it is a place where there are no more tears and no more pain..............it is so far removed from other people's pain. Beings who reside in the heaven-realm suffer from seperation from sentient beings and can't or won't help them. Sentient beings are therefore forgotten, and that is a heaven that I would not want to reside in forever...........I would like to help others.
There are many, MANY examples of Tibetan monks who pray fervently to be re-born in one of the hell-realms in order to bring joy and compassion to those who are suffering horribly. I am not in that frame of mind, yet - but I seek to become that fearless and giving in the future.
Peace,
Mystic
I guess that means that I, too, believe that eventually all of us will become fully realized Buddhas - and therefore similar to what is described in the phrase "universal salvation."
I know that sounds off-kilter, saying that heaven isn't eternal - but from what many Christians believe with heaven, that it is a place where there are no more tears and no more pain..............it is so far removed from other people's pain. Beings who reside in the heaven-realm suffer from seperation from sentient beings and can't or won't help them. Sentient beings are therefore forgotten, and that is a heaven that I would not want to reside in forever...........I would like to help others.
There are many, MANY examples of Tibetan monks who pray fervently to be re-born in one of the hell-realms in order to bring joy and compassion to those who are suffering horribly. I am not in that frame of mind, yet - but I seek to become that fearless and giving in the future.
Peace,
Mystic
sparc872
Active Member
Unitarian Universalists started out as Christians, whether or not they still are I do not know.
http://www.uua.org/aboutuu/history.html
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
sparc872 said:
Yes, I know our history and we did emerge from the Unitarian and Universalist Christian movements. But we no longer consider our religion to be a Christian denomination, although individual UUs may consider themselves Christian.
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
To me, it doesn't make any sense that both Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler will end up with the same fate. How do those that believe in Universal Salvation justify this?
FerventGodSeeker
FerventGodSeeker
Abram
Abraham
Is not a atheist someone who knows of God but refuses to believe?Katzpur said:
How do you explain the verse in Matthew 7:13 where he speaks of the narrow gate? In fact I think all 4 gospels say the same thing.
also
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.