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Divine Revelation or Delusion

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
How can ANY person determine whether a vision or dream or communication is divine revelation or delusion?

We can't be sure .. We are not prophets. However, it's possible to have vivid dreams that have religious significance. We should have been in a 'purified state', physically and spiritually, when they occurred.

We should also realise that they could be from satan or have no significance whatsoever. We certainly should NOT live our life according to dreams!
 

Mr. Beebe

Active Member
Ok, so you have no method to offer to those people who believe in a similar method for their own holy book or religion or cult?

I'm not the one sitting here guessing and asking people for help. You are. So,, Obviously,YOU are one that is confused and apparently void of any answers yourself.

After speaking with you,, I'm nearly 100% sure that your vision is a delusion. So, believe as you desire.
 

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
I'm not the one sitting here guessing and asking people for help. You are. So,, Obviously,YOU are one that is confused and apparently void of any answers yourself.

After speaking with you,, I'm nearly 100% sure that your vision is a delusion. So, believe as you desire.

I'm not guessing about anything. I'm asking questions. I've not described any visions or beliefs of my own.

How can a person determine whether an idea is delusion or divine revelation?

If some stranger told you Abraham's story and was thinking about following through and killing their child, how would you determine if it was divine revelation or delusion?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I don't think it's relevant. If it false dysfunction it is bad, and if it aids you then it is not. If a voice tells me to kill my son, it's encouraging severe dysfunction, a break in behavior that will ruin two lives. Whether it's a delusion or simply a malevolent, controlling being like the Christian god, it should be ignored.
 

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
I don't think it's relevant. If it false dysfunction it is bad, and if it aids you then it is not. If a voice tells me to kill my son, it's encouraging severe dysfunction, a break in behavior that will ruin two lives. Whether it's a delusion or simply a malevolent, controlling being like the Christian god, it should be ignored.

A book I read years ago was set in a culture with several gods. Whenever one of the gods demanded a human sacrifice, the society would burn down the wooden god and bury the ashes.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Kelly and George, I'm looking for a way to determine whether or not a certain "vision" is divine revelation or delusion. Do you know of such a method?
As I mentioned, I don't think it's possible. We don't know what to look for. Is it like TV/Radio/Wifi? Is it like quantum fluctuations and entanglements? I don't know. Can't look for something if you don't have the slightest clue what you're looking for.

I believe logic can show whether a person is processing information correctly or not.
That's a problem for many in the bible, though. Logic through the eyes of irrational people will look logical when it's not.

It's like the claim that Jesus is sinless when objective reading shows he sins all the time. Irrational people will want to hold on to the sinless claim despite contrary evidence.

David, I think that's as good a reply as any, but it's woefully unsatisfying.

Suppose a person claims to have received a vision from God revealing that they should kill their children on a mountaintop (analogous to Abraham). How would someone go about determining which it was? Delusion or divine revelation?
I would hope the greater issue would be "is it moral to do it, regardless of the source?".

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20
All the "Word" didn't exist by Isaiah, though.

The Bible also gives us at least 6 points that can identify a true prophet:

1. They will initially lose physical strength (Daniel 10:8)
2. They may later receive supernatural strength (Daniel 10:18,19).
3. No breath in the body (Daniel 10:17).
4. They are able to speak (Daniel 10:16).
5. They wont be aware of earthly surroundings (Daniel 10:5-8 and 2 Corinthians 12:2-4)
6. The eyes will be open (Numbers 24:4)
It's impressive one can speak without breath. And live.

It is my understanding that not all 6 of these manifestations need be present. Nor am I saying you are claiming to be a Prophet. But, Prophets will have visions (Numbers 12:6).

But,, most of all,, your vision better line up with the scripture. If it doesn't, I would dismiss it.
But if those are the qualifications, those 6 items, nowhere does it mention it has to kowtow to previously established theological premises. Why do we have a New Testament, then? In many ways it goes against what the Old one said, both in "facts" and themes. By this standard, it should be tossed aside as false.
 

Mr. Beebe

Active Member
But if those are the qualifications, those 6 items, nowhere does it mention it has to kowtow to previously established theological premises. Why do we have a New Testament, then? In many ways it goes against what the Old one said, both in "facts" and themes. By this standard, it should be tossed aside as false.

You are wrong. Without the Old Testament,,we wouldn't understand the New Testament nor would we understand Prophecy... There is so much truth and fact in the Old Testament. But,, if you think the half the Bible is false and should be tossed...well,,,good luck.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Kelly and George, I'm looking for a way to determine whether or not a certain "vision" is divine revelation or delusion. Do you know of such a method?
The best I can tell you is by their fruits we can know them; reason plays a part in this. One thing I pointed out earlier as a follower of what I would not call a revealed religion (Hinduism), the revelation should be consistent with the wisdom of the innumerable saints, sages and masters I believe have climbed the spiritual ladder. If a so-called revelation accords with reason and spirituality maybe the ultimate source is not that important.
 

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
The best I can tell you is by their fruits we can know them; reason plays a part in this. One thing I pointed out earlier as a follower of what I would not call a revealed religion (Hinduism), the revelation should be consistent with the wisdom of the innumerable saints, sages and masters I believe have climbed the spiritual ladder. If a so-called revelation accords with reason and spirituality maybe the ultimate source is not that important.

Again, you're not taking into account revelations like Abraham's where God told him to kill his son. Doubtless, you would judge that to be a delusion, correct?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Again, you're not taking into account revelations like Abraham's where God told him to kill his son. Doubtless, you would judge that to be a delusion, correct?
My reason suspects that it was a story (probably never really happened) created to show how absolutely obedient Abraham was to his God. That level of obedience makes no sense to modern thinking people but it was impressive to those of the time where sacrifice was more a part of the day.
 

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
My reason suspects that it was a story (probably never really happened) created to show how absolutely obedient Abraham was to his God. That level of obedience makes no sense to modern thinking people but it was impressive to those of the time where sacrifice was more a part of the day.

Agreed.

But the point remains. There is no way to differentiate between divine revelation and revelation based on the message, because divine revelation might call for violent murder and/or illegal/immoral actions.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

Your vision has to be line with the Bible.
God will make the vision clear.

The Bible also gives us at least 6 points that can identify a true prophet:

1. They will initially lose physical strength (Daniel 10:8)
2. They may later receive supernatural strength (Daniel 10:18,19).
3. No breath in the body (Daniel 10:17).
4. They are able to speak (Daniel 10:16).
5. They wont be aware of earthly surroundings (Daniel 10:5-8 and 2 Corinthians 12:2-4)
6. The eyes will be open (Numbers 24:4)

It is my understanding that not all 6 of these manifestations need be present. Nor am I saying you are claiming to be a Prophet. But, Prophets will have visions (Numbers 12:6).

But,, most of all,, your vision better line up with the scripture. If it doesn't, I would dismiss it.

Mr. Beebe you dont have to answer. If you, please keep to question/OP as posted.

1. How do you know your belief/revelations from god are not a dellusion?

The OP says that dellusions causes positive reactions just as devine revelations.

So, Abraham (and the whole bible) "could be" people who are dellusioned.

2. How do you know that Abraham and all the people, Jesus included, are not dellusional-since dellusions can cause the same affects as divine revelations according to the OP?

If you do answer these questions directly, thank you.

If people in the bible and your belief are dellusions, that is not a bad thing. Just something to ponder about.

Think outside the box.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
You are wrong. Without the Old Testament,,we wouldn't understand the New Testament nor would we understand Prophecy... There is so much truth and fact in the Old Testament. But,, if you think the half the Bible is false and should be tossed...well,,,good luck.
I only concede you need the OT to address the NT with respect to the fact the NT authors shoehorned tropes and "prophecies" from the OT into their stories, even if they don't apply.

I can easily go to God saying the bible is filled with propaganda self-serving to its authors. I worship God, not an ancient badly-written anthology.

Again, you're not taking into account revelations like Abraham's where God told him to kill his son. Doubtless, you would judge that to be a delusion, correct?
The story is spun so that God is merely testing Abe's faith, but what if the truth behind the story is that some deluded guy was doing what his ancestors did (child sacrifice) and God stopped it 'cause He wasn't into that kind of thing?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Agreed.

But the point remains. There is no way to differentiate between divine revelation and revelation based on the message, because divine revelation might call for violent murder and/or illegal/immoral actions.
Agreed that there is no clear cut way to judge other's experiences. We have to use reason and wisdom.
 

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
I only concede you need the OT to address the NT with respect to the fact the NT authors shoehorned tropes and "prophecies" from the OT into their stories, even if they don't apply.

I can easily go to God saying the bible is filled with propaganda self-serving to its authors. I worship God, not an ancient badly-written anthology.


The story is spun so that God is merely testing Abe's faith, but what if the truth behind the story is that some deluded guy was doing what his ancestors did (child sacrifice) and God stopped it 'cause He wasn't into that kind of thing?

Maybe. The point remains that the action required by the delusion or divine revelation does not inform one of the determination between the two.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
How would a person determine whether a vision is "divine origin" or which parts (as you imply) are inconsistent with divine origin?

Suppose a person claims to have received a vision from God revealing that they should kill their children on a mountaintop (analogous to Abraham). How would someone go about determining which it was? Delusion or divine revelation?

Well, for a start there's factual content, and then there are inconsistencies. As a quick search on the web will show, there are many statements in the Quran that are inaccurate and many places where it contradicts itself. Neither would seem to be compatible with a message from an omniscient God.

As for the case of a revelation to kill their children, that is clearly morally wrong, so either the recipient is delusional or the being seen in the vision is evil.
 

Mr. Beebe

Active Member
I can easily go to God saying the bible is filled with propaganda self-serving to its authors. I worship God, not an ancient badly-written anthology.

You are a Bible rejecter,, and here you are,,,, teaching that God's Bible is partly false and full of Propaganda that self serves it's authors??? lol


The Bible teaches that Men who were inspired with the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible as God moved them... And here you are insulting the Holy Spirit?


Do you also expect Salvation? Ever been surprised?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Is it divine revelation or is it delusion.

On another thread, member Scott C. claimed that there are "drastic differences" between a delusion and a divine revelation. When asked about these differences the reply was delusions are somewhat predictable and cause negative actions but divine revelation causes positive results.

Of course, that answer is unsatisfactory because delusions can cause positive results and aren't always predictable. (The placebo effect and the initial delusions before a clinical diagnosis is provided in the case of a mental disorder demonstrates these truths).

In the case of famous and influential mathematician John Nash, his ability to determine what was real and what was delusion allowed him to take back control of his life and fight a "good fight" against his mental illness. His ability to discern between delusion and reality brought him "back from the brink" of certain personal doom.

But what if he wrong and he was receiving divine revelations through visions from God? How can we (could he) be certain that he was dealing with delusion instead of divine revelation?

In the case of Abraham, who the bible describes as having "great faith," received a "divine revelation" that he should kill his son with a knife on s mountain. Certainly most people would consider that message to be a harmful delusion, today. But how could the believer of divine revelation be sure?

What if such an act would prove the person as "having the faith of Abraham" and worthy of God's blessing through the establishment of an entire nation whose numbers would be greater than the sands on the sea shore sync the stars in the sky.

Id assume when an EEG is done to two patients one with divine revelations the other dellusional/mental illness, the EEG would show that the former has no significant EEG spikes outside normal thinking.

While the EEG results of the latter will have significant spikes doctors may interpret as mental illness.

This is assuming doctors can tell the difference between the results of an DR and Dellusioned tests.

--

Here is something else to think. I have Epilepsy/Seizure Disorder. My body contorts. I loose consciousness. I can die at its worst.

Person B has the same symptoms but accordinf to the EEG the doctors see no Seizure activity when they induce a seizure on person B.

We both take medications. The affects of the meds are positive. We dont seize.

Mine is neurological, person B is psychological. Its call psychomotor seizures. He sees a neuropsychiatrist as well as a nuerologist. I see an epileptologist. Neuologist specialized in epilepsy.

To compare:

The DR is me. The Dellusion is person B. EDIT

The EEG for both is normal but we take different medications for the same symptoms.

I assume there is an EEG difference between DR EEG and a Dellusioned EEG even though they have the same "symptoms". I only see it as an issue if either person does something or cant function. Other than that:

** To answer your question, you could do what Been says look at the CCC. That wouls give you a sense of comparison to the DSM qualifications for specific dellusion disorders.

** You can compare EEG results and see the differences in the spike.

You cant tell by looking and listening to a person. Remember, Person B and I have the same symptoms but him psychological and mine neurological.

Best I can think of.
 
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