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Divine Revelation or Delusion

prometheus11

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
Is it divine revelation or is it delusion.

On another thread, member Scott C. claimed that there are "drastic differences" between a delusion and a divine revelation. When asked about these differences the reply was delusions are somewhat predictable and cause negative actions but divine revelation causes positive results.

Of course, that answer is unsatisfactory because delusions can cause positive results and aren't always predictable. (The placebo effect and the initial delusions before a clinical diagnosis is provided in the case of a mental disorder demonstrates these truths).

In the case of famous and influential mathematician John Nash, his ability to determine what was real and what was delusion allowed him to take back control of his life and fight a "good fight" against his mental illness. His ability to discern between delusion and reality brought him "back from the brink" of certain personal doom.

But what if he wrong and he was receiving divine revelations through visions from God? How can we (could he) be certain that he was dealing with delusion instead of divine revelation?

In the case of Abraham, who the bible describes as having "great faith," received a "divine revelation" that he should kill his son with a knife on s mountain. Certainly most people would consider that message to be a harmful delusion, today. But how could the believer of divine revelation be sure?

What if such an act would prove the person as "having the faith of Abraham" and worthy of God's blessing through the establishment of an entire nation whose numbers would be greater than the sands on the sea shore sync the stars in the sky.
 
George-ananda

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I believe 'delusion' and 'revelation' do both exist. I think we have to consider each case individually. In my consideration I look to the spiritual masters, saints and sages whose wisdom comes from spiritual development and is self-developed as opposed to being a received 'revelation'. I believe there are beings above the physical that strive to aid mankind and will genuinely inspire people to channel their thoughts to us. For me to consider something revealed it would help to see evidence that this is something 'more' than the person could normally know and that it dovetails well with the experience of living spiritual masters.
 
Kilgore Trout

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
If you think god has communicated with you, then you're delusional. If you can convince other people that god communicated with you, it doesn't matter.

And, there's always at least a few people who are so credulous that they don't actually need convincing.
 
Kelly of the Phoenix

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, there's not much proving we can do to differentiate. Science can show you are either processing information or not, but it can't determine the source of the information (yet). I'm of the opinion that God is Truth, so if you think you are told something and it isn't true in reality, then ...

On the other hand, if I'm worshipping God of the bible, it's not like God hasn't either lied or bent the Truth just prior to the point of breaking it. So ...
 
prometheus11

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
Kelly and George, I'm looking for a way to determine whether or not a certain "vision" is divine revelation or delusion. Do you know of such a method?
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe this verse explains it:

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Kilgore Trout said:
If you think god has communicated with you, then you're delusional. If you can convince other people that god communicated with you, it doesn't matter.

And, there's always at least a few people who are so credulous that they don't actually need convincing.
Click to expand...

I believe you are delusional for believing this.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Kelly of the Phoenix said:
Unfortunately, there's not much proving we can do to differentiate. Science can show you are either processing information or not, but it can't determine the source of the information (yet). I'm of the opinion that God is Truth, so if you think you are told something and it isn't true in reality, then ...

On the other hand, if I'm worshipping God of the bible, it's not like God hasn't either lied or bent the Truth just prior to the point of breaking it. So ...
Click to expand...

I believe logic can show whether a person is processing information correctly or not.
 
G

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
Considering the more general category of religious experience rather than revelation, there are obvious differences. People with mental illness generally find their "voices" distressing and want them to stop, while religious experiences leave people feeling the better for them. Mental illness is generally a obstacle to leading a normal life, while many mystics have also been people of great practical ability: Teresa of Avila, Blaise Pascal, etc.

When it comes specifically to revelation, that's a different question. Normally, people who experience a divine presence or even have a vision, do not get given a message to pass on to humanity. When some-one like Muhammad claims to have done so, we need to look long and hard at its content and ask if it contains anything inconsistent with a divine origin.
 
prometheus11

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
David, I think that's as good a reply as any, but it's woefully unsatisfying.

Suppose a person claims to have received a vision from God revealing that they should kill their children on a mountaintop (analogous to Abraham). How would someone go about determining which it was? Delusion or divine revelation?
 
prometheus11

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
DavidMcCann said:
When some-one like Muhammad claims to have done so, we need to look long and hard at its content and ask if it contains anything inconsistent with a divine origin.
Click to expand...

How would a person determine whether a vision is "divine origin" or which parts (as you imply) are inconsistent with divine origin?
 
prometheus11

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
Muffled said:
I believe logic can show whether a person is processing information correctly or not.
Click to expand...

I'm not asking about "processing information correctly."

Is your claim that logic can determine whether an idea is divine revelation or delusion?
 
beenherebeforeagain

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I know nothing about it, but the Catholic Church has criteria and guidelines for assessing, accepting or rejecting, and interpreting visions, revelations, etc.
 
prometheus11

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
beenherebeforeagain said:
I know nothing about it, but the Catholic Church has criteria and guidelines for assessing, accepting or rejecting, and interpreting visions, revelations, etc.
Click to expand...

I'm sure. I'm asking how it can be determined for anyone. Say a person who was brought up without belief, say in a culture where 90% of the population were disbelievers, and she had a vision or dream that seemed ultra important. How would she be able to determine the correct assessment?
 
ThePainefulTruth

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
prometheus11 said:
Is it divine revelation or is it delusion.

On another thread, member Scott C. claimed that there are "drastic differences" between a delusion and a divine revelation. When asked about these differences the reply was delusions are somewhat predictable and cause negative actions but divine revelation causes positive results.

Of course, that answer is unsatisfactory because delusions can cause positive results and aren't always predictable. (The placebo effect and the initial delusions before a clinical diagnosis is provided in the case of a mental disorder demonstrates these truths).

In the case of famous and influential mathematician John Nash, his ability to determine what was real and what was delusion allowed him to take back control of his life and fight a "good fight" against his mental illness. His ability to discern between delusion and reality brought him "back from the brink" of certain personal doom.

But what if he wrong and he was receiving divine revelations through visions from God? How can we (could he) be certain that he was dealing with delusion instead of divine revelation?

In the case of Abraham, who the bible describes as having "great faith," received a "divine revelation" that he should kill his son with a knife on s mountain. Certainly most people would consider that message to be a harmful delusion, today. But how could the believer of divine revelation be sure?

What if such an act would prove the person as "having the faith of Abraham" and worthy of God's blessing through the establishment of an entire nation whose numbers would be greater than the sands on the sea shore sync the stars in the sky.
Click to expand...

Given the infinite to one odds that all "revelation" and miracles are simply hearsay in the form of mythology or self-promoting fiction, I think delusion is just another word for blind faith, where the blindness is self induced.
 
M

Mr. Beebe

Active Member
prometheus11 said:
I'm looking for a way to determine whether or not a certain "vision" is divine revelation or delusion. Do you know of such a method?
Click to expand...

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

Your vision has to be line with the Bible.
God will make the vision clear.

The Bible also gives us at least 6 points that can identify a true prophet:

1. They will initially lose physical strength (Daniel 10:8)
2. They may later receive supernatural strength (Daniel 10:18,19).
3. No breath in the body (Daniel 10:17).
4. They are able to speak (Daniel 10:16).
5. They wont be aware of earthly surroundings (Daniel 10:5-8 and 2 Corinthians 12:2-4)
6. The eyes will be open (Numbers 24:4)

It is my understanding that not all 6 of these manifestations need be present. Nor am I saying you are claiming to be a Prophet. But, Prophets will have visions (Numbers 12:6).

But,, most of all,, your vision better line up with the scripture. If it doesn't, I would dismiss it.
 
beenherebeforeagain

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
prometheus11 said:
I'm sure. I'm asking how it can be determined for anyone. Say a person who was brought up without belief, say in a culture where 90% of the population were disbelievers, and she had a vision or dream that seemed ultra important. How would she be able to determine the correct assessment?
Click to expand...
I have no idea. I was suggesting looking into the RCC method because something in that might be useful to answer your question. I would simply document and be very cautious and look for supporting evidence one way or the other.
 
prometheus11

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
Kilgore Trout said:
I used to have a downstairs neighbor who believed the CIA was after him.
Click to expand...

One of my relatives believes that and much more. It's hard to listen to, and it's about all he talks about. I have tried to point out that he gets a disability check every month and if all these gov't agencies are trying to kill him, they could probably find him, but he'll have none of it.

Oh, and he claims that much of this knowledge was given to him by "divine revelation."
 
prometheus11

prometheus11

Well-Known Member
Mr. Beebe said:
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

Your vision has to be line with the Bible.
God will make the vision clear.

The Bible also gives us at least 6 points that can identify a true prophet:

1. They will initially lose physical strength (Daniel 10:8)
2. They may later receive supernatural strength (Daniel 10:18,19).
3. No breath in the body (Daniel 10:17).
4. They are able to speak (Daniel 10:16).
5. They wont be aware of earthly surroundings (Daniel 10:5-8 and 2 Corinthians 12:2-4)
6. The eyes will be open (Numbers 24:4)

It is my understanding that not all 6 of these manifestations need be present. Nor am I saying you are claiming to be a Prophet. But, Prophets will have visions (Numbers 12:6).

But,, most of all,, your vision better line up with the scripture. If it doesn't, I would dismiss it.
Click to expand...

Ok, so you have no method to offer to those people who believe in a similar method for their own holy book or religion or cult?

You see, that's what I'm getting at, here. How can ANY person determine whether a vision or dream or communication is divine revelation or delusion?

By the way, slitting your child's throat on a mountaintop is "in line with" the bible. So if a person has a vision instructing that action (and believes the bible), how might they make the determination?
 
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