Mormonism????

Matthew 7:21-23 Mainly the 'away from me you evil doers'
Why would Jesus say that and still allow them into His eternal dwelling place?
There are more, I just can't find them right now...

DeadVegas said:

I can't exist in a universe where President Bush can become a God.

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:biglaugh: What can I say? :biglaugh:

joecrawford815 said:

Matthew 7:21-23 Mainly the 'away from me you evil doers'
Why would Jesus say that and still allow them into His eternal dwelling place?
There are more, I just can't find them right now...

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Well, that's not much to go on, but I guess it's a start. Here are the verses you mentioned:

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here Jesus is saying that He requires more of us than mere lip service. If we are to be His, we must be obedient to our Father in Heaven's commandments. These words were spoken to His disciples who had gathered to hear Him speak in what we, today, refer to as the Sermon on the Mount. These people had the opportunity to hear Jesus Christ personally and to be witnesses of His great love and compassion. Many have lived who have not been so lucky. Billions of good people have lived and died without ever having had the chance to even hear Christ's gospel, much less accept it. If you had been born in Iraq, Joe, and were a 17-year old boy in Baghdad today, I can guarantee you that, due to no fault of your own, you would not be a Christian. You would be a Muslim and would have a very distorted idea of what Christianity was all about. Do you think that God would send you to Hell forever without making sure that you at least had a chance to choose the gospel of Jesus Christ for yourself?

We are MAN made in GOD's image. We are not gods made in GOD's image. We do not ever attain the level of Glory that is God.

As for the Third heaven. There are many ways to look at it. It has been explained to me by some that it merely refers to Heaven. Earth being the 1st and the Stars and space being the 2nd. I don't see any other Biblical references to support an actual 3rd level of Heaven.

Good question, very thought provoking. But I still don't see enough Biblical evidence for baptism after death.

joecrawford815 said:

We are MAN made in GOD's image. We are not gods made in GOD's image. We do not ever attain the level of Glory that is God.

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So John 10:34 evidently means nothing to you? "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said,Ye are gods?" Are we also to assume that you believe God to be incapable of making us anything He might choose to make us? We are sons and daughters of God, His own offspring. What would you expect the offspring of God to become?

I have presented scriptural evidence, evidence taken from the teachings of the early Christian fathers, and evidence of a modern-day, non-LDS Christian theologian. You, on the other hand, have not presented a single argument to refute anything I said. All you have said was that I was wrong.

As for the Third heaven. There are many ways to look at it. It has been explained to me by some that it merely refers to Heaven. Earth being the 1st and the Stars and space being the 2nd.

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You can, of course, look at any verse in the Bible and come up with an interpretation to suit your own particular beliefs. You can say that it "merely refers to Heaven" instead of admitting that the words explicitly state "the third heaven" and imply the existence of two additional heavens or kingdoms within heaven.

I don't see any other Biblical references to support an actual 3rd level of Heaven.

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1 Corinthians 15:41-42 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." I'm sure you will interpret this one to suit yourself, too. That's your prerogative.

Different degrees of glory for different levels of obedience. What on earth is so objectionable about that? Jesus said that He would "reward every man according to his works?" What does that mean to you? A gold halo as opposed to a bronze one?

joecrawford815 said:

Good question, very thought provoking. But I still don't see enough Biblical evidence for baptism after death.

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Did you see the one-on-one debate between Squirt and FerventGodSeeker? It's in the one-on-one debate forum. You may wish to check it out.

I realize that you believe that if something cannot be found in the Bible, it must be false. I am wondering, however, why you believe this to be the case. The Bible doesn't claim to be a complete record of every word Jesus ever spoke. On the contrary, it does specifically state that Jesus said and did so many things that were not recorded that all of the books in the world could not contain them. If God has provided us with additional information, who are we to tell Him we're not interested in knowing it?

Katzpur said:

Did you see the one-on-one debate between Squirt and FerventGodSeeker? It's in the one-on-one debate forum. You may wish to check it out.

I realize that you believe that if something cannot be found in the Bible, it must be false. I am wondering, however, why you believe this to be the case. The Bible doesn't claim to be a complete record of every word Jesus ever spoke. On the contrary, it does specifically state that Jesus said and did so many things that were not recorded that all of the books in the world could not contain them. If God has provided us with additional information, who are we to tell Him we're not interested in knowing it?

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Also, if you only believe what is in the Bible, you can't believe that the Bible contains all of the truths of the Gospel. The Bible never says it does.

Now you've got yourselves into what we call a paradox.

There is only one reason why I like it when a Christian claims that other Christians (specifically Mormons) are not Christian. I always get to learn something new about Mormons. Not that I actually like it when someone tells my Mormon friends that they are not Christian:149:.

One point that I would like to address is this comment :

joecrawford815 said:

No proof that the Book of Mormon is God-inspired

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My point being that there is not much proof that any religious book is god inspired. That is why it is called faith. Something that the LDS have plenty of.

turk179 said:

There is only one reason why I like it when a Christian claims that other Christians (specifically Mormons) are not Christian. I always get to learn something new about Mormons. Not that I actually like it when someone tells my Mormon friends that they are not Christian:149:.

One point that I would like to address is this comment :
My point being that there is not much proof that any religious book is god inspired. That is why it is called faith. Something that the LDS have plenty of.

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I've been reading a book called "By the Hand of Mormon" by Terryl Givens. So far, he has been going through most of the arguments against the Book of Mormon and talked about how LDS apologists have dealt with them. It's been very interesting. While the author is LDS, he is a scholar, and has tried very hard to be objective. It's worth a read if you've got the time.

joecrawford815 said:

2. Stepping in for a marriage. (like if one of the people dies)
-Matthew 22:29-32
- Mark 12:24-27

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This is either a lie or garbled beyond recognition; we believe nothing of the sort. With stuff like this, is it any wonder why we think you're ill informed?

3. Christ as the Spirit Child of Elohim (God) and His wife (of whom the Bible makes no mention) and Brother of Satan.
-John 3:16
-John 1

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Uh huh. And where in the standard works does it mention God having a wife? It doesn't, does it? Then it's not doctrine.

That's strike two for you in your knowledge of what we believe.

4. Good Works to get to Heaven
-John 3:16
-Ephesians 2:8-9
-Matthew 7:21-23

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Strike three. Good works because we are the children of God, and we do our father's work. Mormons do not believe in being saved by our works. I know you've already received scriptures regarding the role of works in salvation, but I just thought I'd clarify that.

6. No proof that the Book of Mormon is God-inspired
-No manuscripts
-No true witnesses (8 claimed to have seen it, 6 came back and admitted they were paid off by Smith.
-No fufilled prophecy

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Okay, first off, none of these would ever prove that the BoM is God-inspired. Only God can do that. That being said, these constitute your most grievous errors yet:
--The English Translation of the Book of Mormon constitutes a manuscript for purposes of archaeological and anthropological evaluation. It contains hundreds of instances of proper names, poetry, customs and other data that have been confirmed by archaeological evidence. Joseph Smith had little or no access to such data; most of it has been discovered after the Book of Mormon was already published. (See my posts on the "Faking History" thread, soon to be concluded after I handle a few more things IRL).
--There were eleven witnesses to the plates--one group of three and one group of eight. If you've got evidence of any of them denying their testimonies, please offer it. I want a source.
--In "fulfilled prophecy," are you referring to the Book of Mormon's prophecies or Joseph Smith's? Either way, it doesn't matter: Joseph Smith prophesied when and how the Civil War would start, and the Book of Mormon prophecied the arrival of additional documents that would confirm the truthfulness of the Bible.

And finally...name me one of the "significant changes" made by Joseph Smith to the KJV. By "significant" I hope you mean the change skews things toward Mormon doctrine over mainstream Christianity. Happy hunting!

joecrawford815 said:

We are MAN made in GOD's image. We are not gods made in GOD's image. We do not ever attain the level of Glory that is God.

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If you are a man then of you nothing will survive your death. What man lives forever? If you are an everlasting soul, the possibilities are beyond your imagination. It's really as simple as this. What do you see yourself as?

We do not attain the level of glory that is God? What do you think heaven is? Green grass where humans walk around with the sun on their faces? Hardly.

Heaven is not the next step even if you are 'saved'. What do you know of the universe that you should go directly to heaven? There are many schools, much service that you must perform before you are ready.

you know what funny i get to write something i had a great post but i am a little edgy on what i can and can't say about the spiritual things it is get off bases with the church let me know i don't want to go too deep with things that must be thought by the sprit, and i hope this statement doesn’t high jack this form ; if it dose please just move it…

i thank it is interesting how closed minded people are... all of the sources that try to prove that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is wrong come up with lies form people that are not part of the church or lies of people that have fallen into excommunication, and those that come up with good reasons shortly afterward are proven wrong; they for the most part rebel against anything that is good and true. All of the practices that the saints believe in come from the bible and is build upon though revelation... even eternal marriage is part of the bible all you have to do is ask the question, "how did Adam and Eve get married without anyone around to perform the marriage?" then if you take the word of the new testament "what is bound on earth is bound in heaven..." the eternal marriage is not that far of a jump... and the only person that can marry Adam and Eve is God for he was with them in the garden and wouldn’t God make marriage eternal? why would a god take something that make people so happy as a family and then take it away at death... yet it still confuses me that people say they believe in the bible and never take the time to follow the conceal of the apostles and Jesus himself to find and judge a profit by his works and his prophecies. There is a living profit today and he prophetesses and what he says is just and right and glorifies the father, the church is perfect and the people are not; for the lords church is build line upon line and precept upon precept, this is all i am going to say on the matter for there is enough here to ponder; i challenge anybody to read all of the discourses of President Gordon B. Hinckley the profit of us all he is the voice of the Lord almighty even Jesus the Christ…

Super Universe said:

We do not attain the level of glory that is God? What do you think heaven is? Green grass where humans walk around with the sun on their faces? Hardly.

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well since you asked...
1corinthians 15:40-41 only 41...
there is one glory of the sun, and another glory as the moon, and another of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory...

chapter 15 is one that is proven to be missing allot, only a profit can bring it back to it full order and teaching...

just a side note those who don't believe that god dose not have a body verse 44 says that when you die you get a Spiritual body after the restriction, not a sprit but a SPIRITUAL BODY!!!

and 46 proves the lds the first we were sprits then body then will be sprits again...

52-53 talk about how the body can enter into the kingdom of heaven...

there’s allot just to talk about someone start a new thread!!!

Terrywoodenpic said:

Before I took "leave of absence" there were several quite nasty anti-mormon threads.
I am relieved that this opening post has received many posts supporting the LDS view that they are truly Christian.
Those who hold such a negative and narrow view of Christ and his teachings to become anti-Mormon, Have come to the right place to have their Christian views expanded and corrected.

Terry___________________
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

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Hey Terry, nice to see you again. I noticed that the reaction to this "anti-Mormon" thread was much different than in the past. I really appreciate the shift. I hope that Religious Forums continues to be a place where people defend other's right to believe and have their beliefs respected - regardless of what their religion is.

Ex-Mormons, one of which is now my youth pastor. He was mormon until he was 11. He went to seminary for a while and practiced his entire life. He knows his crap.

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Mormons don't start seminary until high school. I'd be interested to know how an 11-year-old was able to attend.

Maize said:

This is a debate forum, and we do ecourage respectful debate. But I don't call, "Prove you're a Christian to me," to be a debate - more like harassment.

If you want to ask the LDS Christians here questions, that's fine but we do not require anyone here to prove their faith and the rash of people expecting the LDS members to do this over and over is tiresome.

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That's why I like to focus on the unique elements of the argument, such as the blood baths and 11-year-old seminary students. It's a little different twist on the same old debate. :tuna:

I corrected the 11 year old thing, sorry my bad, get over it. And it is a term 'washed in the blood', without the blood of Christ there would be no forgiveness, something used quite often to describe the cleansing of one's soul.

My second point came from my 9th grade soccer coach, he was telling me of how he was going, that day, to stand in for a guy to be married. I didn't intend to generalize the practice, I am sorry, but that is what he said, I didn't misinterpret it.
And by manuscripts I meant the originals, or atleast something before Joseph Smith, The original Golden Plates perhaps?

joecrawford815 said:

Do you guys have a problem with me aruguing a point?

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Not if you do so from an informed standpoint.

I have gotten the majority of my information from 3 sources
1. Mormon.org (or LDS.com) one of the official church websites

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What portion of your information comes from this site? I'd be very interested in anything on a church site that mentioned God the Father having a wife, attaining Godhood or witnesses denying their testimonies, for example.

2. Ex-Mormons, one of which is now my youth pastor. He was mormon until he was 11. He went to seminary for a while and practiced his entire life. He knows his crap.

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Enough people have pointed out the chronological error. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, but that still raises the question of why you are listening to an ex-Mormon about church doctrine. If a Christian-turned-Buddhist tells you about all the problems he had with Christianity, how do you react?

3. Current practicing Mormons, my friends, I have over 15 Mormon friends and I ask them questions, and will tell them I think their wrong (their religion) and cite Biblical references. I talk to them and have picked up quite a bit of info. My freshman soccer coach was Mormon, boy did we have some discussions.

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Mormons can get tradition confused with doctrine as easily as anyone else. Did your friends show you in the Standard Works (Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP) where it says God has a wife? Ask them to, and when they fail to do so, you'll know that this belief is only a part of Mormon culture, not doctrine. Sure, many consider it a logical extension, but it's still not doctrine.

Please don't discredit my arguements because you think I hav faulty info. Prove me wrong, trust me I want you to. I am intrigued by debate, and was on the assumption that this was a debate forum. Sorry if I was wrong...

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It is a debate forum. One of the rules of debate is that one not be required to prove a negative. Burden of proof is on you to show we believe such things. That means you need to reference more than just the scripture in the Bible that refutes these 'doctrines,' you need to cite a source (beyond your "LDS friends") that we actually believe them.