In God's Image?

reyjamiei said:

Also, that passage is plural, Let us make man in our image.

Most people just ignore it though.



What's a Xian?

Xian would actually be pronounced like Zion.

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"X" is used as an abbreviation for "Christ," because it's the first letter in the Greek word for "Christ." Xian is a short form for Christian.

The writer has God using the plural, for lack of a less involved way to put it, as the "royal We." It shows God's sovereignty. It ascribes a superlativeness to God. This is actually a bona fide literary technique in Hebrew.

BruceDLimber said:

Hi!

I would say that very simply, "in God's image" means that we have free will!

Peace,

Bruce

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Bruce, I'm curious as to how you can possibly be using the word "image" -- which is the representation of physical qualities -- to mean that we have free will. That is just about the most creative use of the word I think I've ever heard. When I look in the mirror, I see my image. I see the reflection of my appearance. You are using the word "image" to mean something it quite simply doesn't mean. When we read that Adam begat a son (Seth) "in his own likeness, after his image," what do you think we're supposed to interpret that to mean? Wouldn't you agree that this verse is stating that Adam had a son who physically resembled him?

Bruce said:

I beg your pardon?

I was speaking about human beings.

(And in comparison, animals rank as more or less sophisticated automatons....)

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Why shouldn't it apply to animals as well. On what are you basing your assumption that animals don't have free will?

And when it comes to their interactions with Humans, they can't be predestined. After all, how can a cockroach be predestined to be squished under my shoe if I can easily choose not to step on it?

reyjamiei said:

Also, that passage is plural, Let us make man in our image.

Most people just ignore it though.

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Most people ignore it because it's just a usage of English known as "the imperial We."

When Queen Victoria said, "We are not amused" she was not implying that she had multiple personalities.

What's a Xian?

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Xian = Christian just as Xmas = Christmas

The "X" is the Greek letter "Chi" which is the first sound in "Christian." As an abbreviation, it has a long history.

Katzpur said:

Bruce, I'm curious as to how you can possibly be using the word "image" -- which is the representation of physical qualities -- to mean that we have free will. That is just about the most creative use of the word I think I've ever heard. When I look in the mirror, I see my image. I see the reflection of my appearance. You are using the word "image" to mean something it quite simply doesn't mean. When we read that Adam begat a son (Seth) "in his own likeness, after his image," what do you think we're supposed to interpret that to mean? Wouldn't you agree that this verse is stating that Adam had a son who physically resembled him?

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I don't know how Bruce will respond, but here's something from Baha'i Writings that may be relevant:

"The station of man is great, very great. God has created man after His own image and likeness. He has endowed him with a mighty power which is capable of discovering the mysteries of phenomena. Through its use man is able to arrive at ideal conclusions instead of being restricted to the mere plane of sense impressions. As he possesses sense endowment in common with the animals, it is evident that he is distinguished above them by his conscious power of penetrating abstract realities. He acquires divine wisdom; he searches out the mysteries of creation; he witnesses the radiance of omnipotence; he attains the second birth -- that is to say, he is born out of the material world just as he is born of the mother; he attains to everlasting life; he draws nearer to God; his heart is replete with the love of God. This is the foundation of the world of humanity; this is the image and likeness of God; this is the reality of man; otherwise, he is an animal."

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 262)

No, we don't take being created in the image of God to mean a physical image, but a spiritual one. That is, humans contain all the attributes of God. Our job in this life is to learn to manifest those attributes, or to put it another way, grow spiritually.

Hope this helps...

Tiberius said:

Why shouldn't it apply to animals as well. On what are you basing your assumption that animals don't have free will?

And when it comes to their interactions with Humans, they can't be predestined. After all, how can a cockroach be predestined to be squished under my shoe if I can easily choose not to step on it?

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You were actually replying to Bruce, but I'd like to comment on this.

Bruce said animals were more like sophisticated automatons. Well,I wouldn't put it that way, but more like animals act out of instinct rather than rational thought. Humans act out of instinct too, obviously, but also out of rational thought.

If there's a differentiator between humans and other animals, it would be that...the capacity for rational thought.

Whether any other animals have the capacity to evolve into sentient beings as we are now, well, call me in a few million years and I'll let you know. :sarcastic

Booko said:

When Queen Victoria said, "We are not amused" she was not implying that she had multiple personalities.

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They are not? She is not?

Oh, well. There goes my neat, little theory about Queen Victoria - circling down the tube.

Hi Tiberius. I'm new on this thread but I'd like to enter in.
You quoted Gen.1:26 "And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness.." It is my understanding that "image" in this case means: shape, form, likeness: one head, two arms, legs, feet, hands, etc. But this is the primary meaning. We are created as living souls; we are sentient beings; we can think, rationalize, have feelings, desires etc.
It is true we read in Col.1:14,15, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God; the first born of every creature:" And He is called the "unseen, only God" in 1 Tim.1:17.
But I believe this from man's view point, for "no man has seen God at any time". Yet, if we would see God, it would be Christ Jesus.
And, when ever angels in the Bible are seen, they look like a man. Oh, they can be radiant and bright, or not.
IMO, Adam and Eve had minds and learned how to prune, keep and guard the garden, with God in human form, as their teacher. They must have known what death was, from plants and even animals dying. And I believe they knew much that was good, but probably not what was evil. So when the serpent said "you will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God knowing good and evil;" Eve ate and so did Adam who was there.

All for now, Bick

Booko said:

Bruce said animals were more like sophisticated automatons. Well,I wouldn't put it that way, but more like animals act out of instinct rather than rational thought. Humans act out of instinct too, obviously, but also out of rational thought.

If there's a differentiator between humans and other animals, it would be that...the capacity for rational thought.

Whether any other animals have the capacity to evolve into sentient beings as we are now, well, call me in a few million years and I'll let you know. :sarcastic

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Can you support your claim that animals are incapable of rational thought?

Booko said:

No, we don't take being created in the image of God to mean a physical image, but a spiritual one. That is, humans contain all the attributes of God. Our job in this life is to learn to manifest those attributes, or to put it another way, grow spiritually.

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Hi, Booko. Well, I've argued my point of view on this subject so many times, I've pretty much run out of things to say. All I know for sure is what the word "image" means. It is the representation of physical qualities. It's what something looks like. Period. There is no such thing as a spiritual image. I would wholeheartedly agree that we also have been endowed with God's spiritual attributes, but that is not what "in His image, after His likeness" means.

Within the context in which we find the phrase, the meaning is even more clear.

Genesis 1: 24-27 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

In speaking of all animal life which He created prior to creating Adam and Eve, He spoke of each of the species of animals "after his kind." In other words, every living creature would reproduce itself and beget others of its own kind. But God created man after His own image and in His own likeness and told them to also reproduce, which Adam did, begetting a son "in his own likeness, after his image."

Can you think of a single example of how you would use the word "image" in a sentence where it would not, in some way, refer to physical appearance. I've never seen anyone do it yet. You see your image in the mirror. A child is said to be the spitten' image of a parent he closely resembles. A photograph is an image of a person or scene recorded on film or digitally. I've never seen anyone do it yet. Even if we say that someone is "the image of good health," we mean that he looks healthy. It is impossible to even "imagine" something without getting a mental picture in our minds of something.

Katzpur said:

Bruce, I'm curious as to how you can possibly be using the word "image" -- which is the representation of physical qualities -- to mean that we have free will. That is just about the most creative use of the word I think I've ever heard. When I look in the mirror, I see my image. I see the reflection of my appearance. You are using the word "image" to mean something it quite simply doesn't mean. When we read that Adam begat a son (Seth) "in his own likeness, after his image," what do you think we're supposed to interpret that to mean? Wouldn't you agree that this verse is stating that Adam had a son who physically resembled him?

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I think he is challenging the "assumption" that this has to refer to some sort of physical likeness. If God is spirit, then he may not have a true physical aspect. No where does it say that "God is physical. Those who worship him must do so in his physical likeness!"

NetDoc said:

I think he is challenging the "assumption" that this has to refer to some sort of physical likeness. If God is spirit, then he may not have a true physical aspect. No where does it say that "God is physical. Those who worship him must do so in his physical likeness!"

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Sorry, ND, but the word "image" can be used only with respect to physical attritbutes. And within the context in which the word is used, it is absurd to insist that it mean something other than what it actually says. If we, as physical beings can worship God in spirit, it is clearly obvious that any spirit can inhabit a physical body -- including God's. We are told to worship Him in spirit because that is the only way we can worship Him -- spirit to Spirit. We've had this conversation before -- though it's been a long time. Do you really want to have it again?

Katzpur said:

Sorry, ND, but the word "image" can be used only with respect to physical attritbutes.

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Says who? I can "image" my PC. That has NOTHING to do with the physical characteristics of the box that contains it.

How about "character". When I say that someone is the "spitting image" of his father, I am either talking about his looks, or his character. The context will determine what I actually mean. If we are ALL in God's physical image, then why don't we ALL look alike? We know why we don't all ACT like God (sin), but that's not how we are supposed to be!

My wife told my daughter the other day: "You are JUST LIKE your dad!" We happen to look nothing alike.

My son told me once that he wanted to grow up to be "Just like" me. He obviously doesn't want to be old and fat. Perhaps he wanted to grow into my spiritual image?

Isaiah 40:12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand,
or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens?
Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket,
or weighed the mountains on the scales
and the hills in a balance?

13 Who has understood the mind of the LORD,
or instructed him as his counselor?
14 Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him,
and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge
or showed him the path of understanding?
15 Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket;
they are regarded as dust on the scales;
he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust.
16 Lebanon is not sufficient for altar fires,
nor its animals enough for burnt offerings.
17 Before him all the nations are as nothing;
they are regarded by him as worthless
and less than nothing.
18 To whom, then, will you compare God?
What image will you compare him to?
19 As for an idol, a craftsman casts it,
and a goldsmith overlays it with gold
and fashions silver chains for it.
20 A man too poor to present such an offering
selects wood that will not rot.
He looks for a skilled craftsman
to set up an idol that will not topple. 21 Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood since the earth was founded? NIV (read the entire chapter)

Why does God not allow any PHYSICAL representation of himself? Probably because he is NOT physical.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. NIV

How does someone get a PHYSICAL image of an invisible being???

Colossians 3:5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. NIV

Old self, new self... but we have the SAME BODY. Are you saying that the author is wrong here and that we need to PHYSICALLY LOOK MORE LIKE GOD? Note that the "New Self" is being renewed in the IMAGE OF ITS CREATOR. Look at what we are to get rid of here: nothing physical. This is becoming LIKE God in character.

NetDoc said:

Says who? I can "image" my PC. That has NOTHING to do with the physical characteristics of the box that contains it.

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Yes, and what happens when you image it? (Not a great example, anyway, since you are using the word "image" as a verb when it is used in the Bible as a noun.)

How about "character". When I say that someone is the "spitting image" of his father, I am either talking about his looks, or his character. The context will determine what I actually mean. If we are ALL in God's physical image, then why don't we ALL look alike? We know why we don't all ACT like God (sin), but that's not how we are supposed to be!

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I have never in my life heard someone say that a child is the "spitting image" of his father without meaning that he looks like his father. Ever. We don't all look alike, but we all have a human image -- like our Father.

My wife told my daughter the other day: "You are JUST LIKE your dad!" We happen to look nothing alike.

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Perfect example. She evidently did not use the word "image" because she was not talking about physical appearance. If she had been talking about physical appearance, she would likely have used the word "image."

My son told me once that he wanted to grow up to be "Just like" me. He obviously doesn't want to be old and fat. Perhaps he wanted to grow into my spiritual image?

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That's because he wants to have many of your qualities and attributes. He wants to be "just like you" in some ways, but he does not want to be in the image of an "old, fat man." You don't have a "spiritual image," ND. There is no such animal.

Why does God not allow any PHYSICAL representation of himself? Probably because he is NOT physical.

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Probably not. His Son was "in the express image of His person" -- the "person," you believe doesn't have an "image" at all.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

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NIV

How does someone get a PHYSICAL image of an invisible being???

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The original Greek (sorry, I can't remember the word) was translated as "invisible," but a truer, more accurate meaning would have been "unseen," as opposed to "unable to be seen." The dark side of the moon is invisible to us, but that certainly doesn't mean it would be invisible to us if we could view it from a different angle or perspective.

Old self, new self... but we have the SAME BODY. Are you saying that the author is wrong here and that we need to PHYSICALLY LOOK MORE LIKE GOD? Note that the "New Self" is being renewed in the IMAGE OF ITS CREATOR. Look at what we are to get rid of here: nothing physical. This is becoming LIKE God in character.

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I'm not saying that at all! Of course we should be striving to be more like God in character. That's not even what this thread it about. It's about what it means to be created in the image of God.

Tiberius said:

Can you support your claim that animals are incapable of rational thought?

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There's another thread going on now, "Man vs. Beast" that you might find interesting.

Katzpur said:

The original Greek (sorry, I can't remember the word) was translated as "invisible," but a truer, more accurate meaning would have been "unseen," as opposed to "unable to be seen." The dark side of the moon is invisible to us, but that certainly doesn't mean it would be invisible to us if we could view it from a different angle or perspective.

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Invisible is not the same as "obscurred" or "hidden".

Read through those passages again. The word "image" never refers to anything PHYSICAL: only spiritual. From www.Dictionary.com:

im·age ([FONT=verdana, sans-serif] P [/FONT]) Pronunciation Key ( m j)
n.

1. A reproduction of the form of a person or object, especially a sculptured likeness.
2. Physics. An optically formed duplicate, counterpart, or other representative reproduction of an object, especially an optical reproduction formed by a lens or mirror.
3. One that closely or exactly resembles another; a double: He is the image of his uncle.
4. 1. The opinion or concept of something that is held by the public.
   2. The character projected to the public, as by a person or institution, especially as interpreted by the mass media.
5. A personification of something specified: That child is the image of good health.
6. A mental picture of something not real or present.
7. 1. A vivid description or representation. A figure of speech, especially a metaphor or simile.
   2. A concrete representation, as in art, literature, or music, that is expressive or evocative of something else: night as an image of death.
8. Mathematics. A set of values of a function corresponding to a particular subset of a domain.
9. Computer Science. An exact replica of the contents of a storage device, such as a hard disk, stored on a second storage device, such as a network server.
10. Obsolete. An apparition.

Note the parts that I EMBOLDENED in RED.

Katzpur said:

Can you think of a single example of how you would use the word "image" in a sentence where it would not, in some way, refer to physical appearance. I've never seen anyone do it yet.

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I think NetDoc just gave one.

I understand that the Genesis quotes you gave would be easily understood to be referring to a physical image, and that's fine.

The problem I have with it is a verse I expect y'all have heard ad nauseum, well it's a verse in John anyway.

The Baha'i Writings confirm this understanding, that God does not have a physical body, so to understand Genesis' claim that we are created in the image of God must mean something other than a physical image.

I know that LDS believes otherwise, but it's probably one of those things where we will have to agree to disagree.

After we die, we get to find out for sure.

Katzpur said:

Sorry, ND, but the word "image" can be used only with respect to physical attritbutes. And within the context in which the word is used, it is absurd to insist that it mean something other than what it actually says. If we, as physical beings can worship God in spirit, it is clearly obvious that any spirit can inhabit a physical body -- including God's. We are told to worship Him in spirit because that is the only way we can worship Him -- spirit to Spirit. We've had this conversation before -- though it's been a long time. Do you really want to have it again?

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I don't particularly want to argue it, and since this is Biblical Debates this wouldn't be the place anyway, but you'd have an awfully hard time making it if you had to take into account what Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah taught as well. It can't be done, Katzpur, so I got no wiggle room on this one. Sorry.

My step son is the spitting image of his father. He looks nothing like him, he acts like him.

Although we surely aren't in God's image that way! We act like God? I doubt it!