• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Nephilim

Green Kepi

Active Member
Okay...I've got my opinion; however, before I share it (whatever it's worth - probably not much) I'd like to hear from some of you. Here goes: In Numbers 13:33 it states - "We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim [Genesis 6:4]). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them." Now my question is this, I thought they perished in the Flood? Didn't they? How did they survive the flood - if they did? And could it be, this is why God commanded the total extermination of the Canaanites, as He had earlier ordered the near annihilation of the human race?
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
They did survive the flood yes, which is strange considering that the whole point of the flood was to kill them off.
I guess when the ancient myth writers were adapting the local Canaanite myths to fit in with the Hebrews own mythology, they got a bit confused.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
It doesn't say it in the bible but it is generally believed that Goliath was descendant from the Nephilim. There have been other giants killed by in this period, by either David or his warriors. I not sure where this source or this Goliath-Nephilim comes from; possibly it one of the other Jewish literature... Talmud perhaps?
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
Gnostic...I believe it does tell us in the Bible. Let me know if you think I'm wrong. In 2 Samuel 21:18-22, it mentions Goliath's 4 relatives (also giants). It says they were descended from "Rapha" (another name for the Rephaim or Emin or Nephilim). Labmi was the brother of Goliath (1Chron. 20:5).

Notice in Genesis 6: 4 it says, "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days - and also afterward...". After what? I believe, the flood. I don't know how many people I've had tell me that the Nephilim means giants. The word does not. KJV says "giants", that's the wrong word in Hebrew. It comes from the root word "Naphal". Meaning "fallen ones". Many will say that the "sons of God" are godly sons of Seth. That can't be...because, since the fall of man (man...the translators added the name Adam and Eve) and woman, there is no such thing as a godly line of anyone. The Jewish historian, Josephus, believed and recorded that the "sons of God" were fallen angels. This belief was standard in the ancient world, even up until the 4th Century. The Dead Sea Scrolls, talks about celestial beings from the skies, mating with earth women and "begat" giants. The Jewish Torah reads: "Nephilim appeared on earth when the divine beings cobabited with the women. Matthew 22:30 only says angels do not marry or reproduce...it does not say they can't have sex. Jude 1:7 says they can have sex!

Oh well, it's getting late. Let me know what you and Halcyon think. I'm going to bed.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Then Matthew is wrong. It is obvious from Genesis that they can sired children with mortal women.

But then bring the next question is - Can one angel produce another angel, through mating with their own kind?
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
Matthew is not wrong. They do not reproduce with their own kind. Remember, in every occasion when the Bible refers to angels...they are male.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Green Kepi said:
Remember, in every occasion when the Bible refers to angels...they are male.
Oh, how boring heaven must be,:( if there are only male angels. :sarcastic

Forgive me, Kepi, but that's only an assumption they are all males. I doubt that it will give us a list of all angels.
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
:bounce That's funny. You planning on "getting it on" with an angel? As with the list, true...but, all I have to go on is the Bible. The rest is mere speculation.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I thought this sounded 'a propos'
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/nephilim.html
The Nephilim


"The Sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."
- Genesis 6:2

"Some commentators believe that the expression 'sons of God' refers to the 'godly line' of Seth, and 'daughters of men' to women from the line of Cain."
- Commentary on the Living Bible
"The Book of Giants was another literary work concerned with Enoch, widely read (after translation into the appropriate languages) in the Roman empire....The 'giants' were believed to be the offspring of fallen angels (the Nephilim; also called Watchers) and human women."
- Robert Eisman and Michael Wise, The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered
In The Book of Giants (i.e., 4Q531, 6Q8 Frag. 2 and 4Q530 Col. 2), "the name of one of the giants is Gilgamesh, the Babylonian hero and subject of a great epic written in the third millennium B.C.E."
- Michael Wise, Martin Abegg, Jr., and Edward Cook, The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation (1996) p. 247
The root of Nephilim is nephel which means: "untimely birth, abortion, miscarriage". The Biblical tradition says the Nephilim were on the earth before the Flood and afterwards, but they appear to be missing during the Flood.

"The Nefilim were upon the Earth in those days and thereafter too. Those sons of the gods who cohabited with the daughters of the Adam, and they bore children into them. They were the Mighty Ones of Eternity, the People of the Shem."
- Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they; bare children unto them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
- Genesis 6:4 (King Jame's version)

"Megalithic monuments, found by the Hebrews on their arrival in Canaan, will have encouraged legends about giants; as in Greece, where the monstrous man-eating Cyclopes were said by story-tellers ignorant of ramps, levers and other Mycenaean engineering devices, to have lifted single- handed the huge blocks of stone that form the walls of Tiryns, Mycenae and other ancient cities."
- Robert Graves and Raphael Patai, Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis
On a parchment fragment 4Q201(En ara) copied ca. 200-150 B.C.E. found at Qumrum:
13. [They (the leaders) and all ... of them took for themselves] wives from all that they chose and [they began to cohabit with them and to defile themselves with them]; and to teach them sorcery and [spells and the cutting of roots; and to acquaint them with herbs.] And they become pregnant by them and bo[re (great) giants three thousand cubits high ...]
- Book of Enoch (from Translation by J. C. Greenfield

"Later Jewish tradition has it that their seduction was at least partly their own fault since they had taught the girls the art of cosmetics, and so had begun the awful progress of mankind to degeneracy and sexual abandon. More important, 'they taught them charms and enchantments, the cutting of roots, and make them acquainted with plants..." (Enoch 7:1ff)."
- John M. Allegro, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross
"The Hebrew word for giants (nephilum) literally means the fallen-down-ones because these tall celestial beings fell from the sky. Their half-breed progeny and their descendants are often mentioned in the early books of the Old Testament until the last of them were finally killed off. They were known as the Rephaim [Hebrew for 'phantoms'], Emim, Anakim, Horim, Avim, and Zamzummim. Some scholars speculate that this tradition of giants born from the union of gods and humans formed the basis for the demigod of Greek mythology."
- Raymond E. Fowler, The Watchers
"Those giants...are termed n'philim (lit. 'those who have fallen' or 'perished'). A similar tradition mentions such a race of primordial giants in the Rephaim."
- John Gray, Near Eastern Mythology
"The Nefilim ('Fallen Ones') bore many other tribal names, such as Emim ('Terrors'), Repha'im ('Weakeners'), Gibborim ('Giant Heroes'), Zamzummim ('Achievers'), Anakim ('Long-necked' or 'Wearers of Necklaces'), Awwim ('Devastators' or 'Serpents'). One of the Nefilim named Arba is said to have built the city of Hebron, called 'Kiriath-Arba' after him, and become the father of Anak whose three sons, Sheshai, Ahiman and Talmai, were later expelled by Joshua's comrade Caleb. Since, however, arba means 'four' in Hebrew, Kiriath-Arba may have originally have meant 'City of Four,' a reference to its four quarters mythically connected with the Anakite clans: Anak himself and his 'sons' Sheshai, Ahiman and Talmai."
- Robert Graves and Raphael Patai, Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis

"And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, which come of the Nephilim: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight."
- Numbers 13:33 "The Emim - a large and numerous people, as tall as the Anakim - had formerly inhabited it [Moab]. Like the Anakim, they are usually reckoned as Rephaim, though the Moabites call them Emim."
"Now only King Og of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. In fact his bed, an iron bed, can still be seen in Rabbah of the Ammonites. By the common cubit [63.5 cm/25 in] it is nine cubits [5.7 m/18.75 ft] long and four cubits wide."
- Deuteronomy 2:11, 3:11

"Our skills and behavior are finely attuned to our size. We could not be twice as tall as we are, for the kinetic energy of a fall would then be 16 to 32 times as great, and our sheer weight (increased eightfold) would be more than our legs could support. Human giants of eight to nine feet have either died young or been crippled early by failure of joints and bones. At half our size, we could not wield a club with sufficient force to hunt large animals (for kinetic energy would decrease 16 to 32-fold); we could not impart sufficient momentum to spears and arrows; we could not cut or split wood with primitive tools or mine minerals with picks and chisels. Since these all were essential activities in our historical development, we must conclude that the path of our evolution could only have been followed by a creature very close to our size. I do not argue that we inhabit the best of all possible worlds, only that our size has limited our activities and, to a great extent, shaped our evolution."
- Stephen Jay Gould, "Sizing Up Human Intelligence," Physical Anthropology 96/97, pp.150-51
"The tradition in Genesis 6.4 may reflect the Canaanite myth of the birth of minor gods from the union of El and human women. The conception of the Rephaim as supermen may reflect the Canaanite tradition of defunct kings as rp'um, or Dispensers of fertility. The identity in tradition of 'the fallen ones' of Genesis 6:4 and the Rephaim is supported by the nature of the latter in Proverbs 2:18; Job 26:5 and Phoenician funerary inscriptions."
- John Gray, Near Eastern Mythology
"For her house leads down to death and her paths to the spirits of the dead."
- Proverbs 2:18 "The dead are in deep anguish, those beneath the waters and all that live in them."
- Job 26:5

 

gnostic

The Lost One
green kepi said:
As with the list, true...but, all I have to go on is the Bible. The rest is mere speculation.
Do you think the Bible or any other scriptures would reveal all of God's plan or reveal what's going on in heaven? Or the who's who?

I'd doubt it very much.

It is merely assumption that there are only male angels. It is also equally just assumption (on my part) that there are male and female angels. For all we know, angels could be in fact genderless or androgynous. But there is a flaw in that, because Genesis 6, indicated that the angels had sex with mortal women. But that the bible doesn't report on female angels, mean very little.
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
Gnostic...notice that's why I put the "...all I have to...". Of course, the Bible does not tell us all. Our little "floppy disks" could not handle or understand it all. I know it's assumptions. However, angels appear to be created beings by God and would have no need to reproduce. Michel, thanks for the information. There's quite a bit I can add to my "tool box".
 

Mykola

Member
Green Kepi said:
Okay...I've got my opinion; however, before I share it (whatever it's worth - probably not much) I'd like to hear from some of you. Here goes: In Numbers 13:33 it states - "We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim [Genesis 6:4]). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them." Now my question is this, I thought they perished in the Flood? Didn't they? How did they survive the flood - if they did? And could it be, this is why God commanded the total extermination of the Canaanites, as He had earlier ordered the near annihilation of the human race?

Before asking such a question I would make it clear what 'Nephilim' means.
That means "Giants". Should all giants be relatives?

One more thing: decontextualization is not a good approach.
You quote Numbers 13:33, forgetting to add that these words was a sheer lie.
And Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephun'neh had disproved this lie (see Numbers 14:6-7).
 

Mykola

Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
Nephilim derives from the root word naphal meaning "to fall".

Correct.
Thank you for the remark.
And even more:


Pronunciation Guidenaphal {naw-fal'}
TWOT ReferenceRoot WordTWOT - 1392a primitive rootPart of SpeechvOutline of Biblical Usage
1) to fall, lie, be cast down, fail
a) (Qal)
1) to fall
2) to fall (of violent death)
3) to fall prostrate, prostrate oneself before
4) to fall upon, attack, desert, fall away to , go away to, fall into the hand of
5) to fall short, fail, fall out, turn out, result
6) to settle, waste away, be offered, be inferior to
7) to lie, lie prostrate
b) (Hiphil)
1) to cause to fall, fell, throw down, knock out, lay prostrate
2) to overthrow
3) to make the lot fall, assign by lot, apportion by lot
4) to let drop, cause to fail (fig.)
5) to cause to fall
c) (Hithpael)
1) to throw or prostrate oneself, throw oneself upon 2) to lie prostrate, prostrate oneself d) (Pilel) to fall


Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 434AV - fail 318, fall down 25, cast 18, cast down 9, fall away 5,
divide 5, overthrow 5, present 5, lay 3, rot 3, accepted 2,
lie down 2, inferior 2, lighted 2, lost 2, misc 22; 434
 

Mykola

Member
n@phiyl {nef-eel'} or n@phil {nef-eel'}
TWOT ReferenceRoot WordTWOT - 1393afrom 05307Part of Speechn mOutline of Biblical Usage1) giants, the Nephilim


Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 3AV - giant 3; 3
Hebrew Lexicon (Help)
1147431613-7978.html
 
Top