"JEHOVAH'S" witnesses and Revelation 12:17

Hockeycowboy said:

We can prove they lie


And so were the first-century Chrisians "urged" to accept the guidance of the Apostles, who were unlearned and ordinary. Were they wrong to do so? Or did it help them to maintain unity (1 Corinthians 1:10)?

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You bring up a great point. The apostles claimed to have authority from God. The people believed they were called by Jesus Christ to be his apostles. The Watchtower (as far as I know) claims no such authority. Their authority is the belief that their interpretation of the bible represents God's will. That is how they present their message is by referencing biblical passages that support their conclusions.

DavyCrocket2003 said:

The Watchtower urges people to read the Bible and gain understanding of God's commandments. They teach us to seek God's will and God's kingdom. I don't think they are waging "war against all those who keep God's commands."

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If I refuse to keep God's commands per order of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses what does the Bible say will happen to me?

DavyCrocket2003 said:

You bring up a great point. The apostles claimed to have authority from God. The people believed they were called by Jesus Christ to be his apostles. The Watchtower (as far as I know) claims no such authority. Their authority is the belief that their interpretation of the bible represents God's will. That is how they present their message is by referencing biblical passages that support their conclusions.

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Are there no new rules coming from the GB? Are all Jehovah's Witness rules found in the Bible?

Carlita said:

I really don't like trying to justify my feelings on things. I am very opinionated. If someone takes what I say as an offense, I'd rather than ask me what I mean by whatever they are upset about. I ask questions that I really want honest answers for. Many believers are picked on (especially Christians) and it makes it hard to have conversations.

That and I'm just thinking of my brother and grandmother; so, I'm not in my right state right now. I just have nothing better to do but to be here am distract myself. I have I think two or three people ignore me so far. I guess I'm just ignorant.

I'm sorry, I just don't share your and @djhwoodwerks view on JW. They may or may not be wrong; and, it's not my place to belittle their teachings.

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I am sorry about your trouble. May you find all the peace that you need.

Why do you call the pointing out of a fault "belittle"?

savagewind said:

I am sorry. The errand that would take me away was very much shorter than I thought. I am back, Aren't y'll glad?

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I don't know. I'm just in a confused state of mind right now. Did you take a break?

savagewind said:

I could write an essay on this one. I won't though. True and nice do not go together. I am not even sure your meaning of "nice". Jesus said, "get behind me Satan", which is not nice and he told the women with the daughter to be healed that he did not come for her. Not nice.

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Em. The Buddha believed that when you are intuned with your Buddha nature (the Truth) then you experience and give from yourself peace, humility, and so forth. He believed that there are no ill feelings in a Buddha's mind. What we experience, the anger, and all of that for whatever reason are external things that are not our pure self. It is not who we are. It's what we became accustomed to growing up as we started developing morals to live by whether we find it from our gods or elsewhere.

So the Truth or Dharma is inline with a nice, peaceful, humble nature. They go together.

I don't understand scripture that doesn't not combine the Truth with positiveness. Correcting others does not need to be forceful. The Church has done it for years. It's an ugly part of Christianity that would take me hours to talk about.

savagewind said:

I do not know what "teachings of a perosn's faith" means so I won't comment because I don't know how.

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What you believe is who you are, correct?

If it is, if I belittle what you believe, I belittle you.

savagewind said:

I hate asusmptions too. So you hate the assumption that in the past people were taught to beleive that millions now living will never die. Correct?

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I'm sure you understand what I meant. Negative assumptions. Like thinking I am talking ill about your comments or something when I'm just expressing my opinion.

savagewind said:

OK! I have no trouble with people belieing the wrong thing. I have a huge problem with people teaching the wrong thing. Don't you?

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Short answer: If it harms another or self (et cetera), yes. If it does not, no.

I don't know about Christianity. Many Christians tend to believe that. In how I live paganism, if someone taught something against what I believe I don't have a problem with that. It's wrong to me and if it doesn't abuse or hurt a person (etc), if it's just an opinion or conversation that I disagree with, why would I have a problem with it. I have a problem with violence over religion. As for the beliefs itself, I don't have a problem with it.

savagewind said:

I do not know that the thread posts are speaking with any person. It looks general to me.

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Thank you. Many people think when I say "many people" they automatically assume I'm talking about them just indirectly (hiding behind words, I suppose)

savagewind said:

If everyone was like that then the whole world would be Nazi. Yes?

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Carlita said:

What do you mean?

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The Nazis wanted world domination but there were many people who spoke against them and who acted against them. It didn't happen.

Do you know that the JWs want world domination?

savagewind said:

I am sorry about your trouble. May you find all the peace that you need.

Why do you call the pointing out of a fault "belittle"?

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It could be because it's online. The OP didn't sound positive, so I thought I'd share my opinion. The JW friends I spoke with told me the false nature of other Christians teachings; but, their approach was a bit different. Don't know if the in-person was the key. Who knows.

savagewind said:

Do you know that the JWs want world domination?

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Actually, no. If they posted like the OP, I'd probably say something against that too. I guess if they acted on it, then, yes, it would be a huge problem. As a belief and statement, I have no reason to put it down. Just say "okaayee" and put it aside.

Carlita said:

I don't know. I'm just in a confused state of mind right now. Did you take a break?

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Yes I did. It was shorter than I thought it would be.

Em. The Buddha believed that when you are intuned with your Buddha nature (the Truth) then you experience and give from yourself peace, humility, and so forth. He believed that there are no ill feelings in a Buddha's mind. What we experience, the anger, and all of that for whatever reason are external things that are not our pure self. It is not who we are. It's what we became accustomed to growing up as we started developing morals to live by whether we find it from our gods or elsewhere.

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Good!

So the Truth or Dharma is inline with a nice, peaceful, humble nature. They go together.

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I do not doubt it.

I don't understand scripture that doesn't not combine the Truth with positiveness. Correcting others does not need to be forceful. The Church has done it for years. It's an ugly part of Christianity that would take me hours to talk about.

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I agree with you. Talking is not force unless threats are used. Do you know that the governing body interpret many scriptures as threats against any person who will not accept their authority?

What you believe is who you are, correct?

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I hope not! LOL. I do not believe the same as I did yesterday. And I am nothing like the person I was twenty years ago.

If it is, if I belittle what you believe, I belittle you.

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Absolutely not! I don't even know what to say to that. What about SCHOOL? Lessons are for changing one's mind. I am sure.

I'm sure you understand what I meant. Negative assumptions. Like thinking I am talking ill about your comments or something when I'm just expressing my opinion.

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I do not do that. I think. Shrugs

Short answer: If it harms another or self (et cetera), yes. If it does not, no.

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I know but most of the time harm comes stealthly. For instance some pesticides were thought to be good but they were very bad.

I don't know about Christianity. Many Christians tend to believe that. In how I live paganism, if someone taught something against what I believe I don't have a problem with that. It's wrong to me and if it doesn't abuse or hurt a person (etc), if it's just an opinion or conversation that I disagree with, why would I have a problem with it. I have a problem with violence over religion. As for the beliefs itself, I don't have a problem with it.

Thank you. Many people think when I say "many people" they automatically assume I'm talking about them just indirectly (hiding behind words, I suppose)

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You're welcome! Thank you!

Ha, ha. Just got one comment (surprisingly)

savagewind said:

I hope not! LOL. I do not believe the same as I did yesterday. And I am nothing like the person I was twenty years ago.

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I think I understand. Usually people have a foundation religion or faith. Everything they do or say is based on that foundation.

For example, a Christian would say (assuming) they always will believe in God. That is their foundation. They may change denominations and such; however, if that is there foundation for their life, that will never change.

Kind of like the ground will always be there even if you decide to tear down your house and build a condo.

Something I have observed.

I agree with a lot of what the JWs teach. I do not agree with their extreme views.

On the other hand, they agree with NOTHING an outsider believes in if it differs from what the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses says.

Think about it.

Somebody said

DavyCrocket2003 said:

The Watchtower urges people to read the Bible and gain understanding of God's commandments. They teach us to seek God's will and God's kingdom. I don't think they are waging "war against all those who keep God's commands."

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But if they could they would change everyone into a Jehovah's Witness because they really and truly do say that the future Earth will be populated with ONLY JWs.

So you are either changed or eliminated. Isn't that war?

Doesn't every war either change or eliminate the opponent?

Most "apostates" of the Jehovah's Witness organization do not set out to change JWs but to change some of their crazy rules.

Jehovah's Witness are taught that their job is to change you. And if you will not be changed God will take care to eliminate you.

Good question Carlita, and I would like to add a little to the discussion already taken place.

I think the answer to your question may find its roots in the past: through Islam, Nationalism, and Christianity.

When radical Islamist advocated killing Jews and Christians, many Muslims were quiet because they were thought of as "fellow Muslims" which had "isolated views" which would never permeate or reverberate through the Islamic family. The result? Without opposition the seed began to sprout and grow, and the world suffers for it now. Today we see radical Muslims preaching that God requires them to destroy anyone who opposes their particular brand of Islam.


Likewise in Germany, when the Nazis expounded German pride and nationalism at the expense of Catholics, Jews and Gypsies, few spoke ill of them, because they identified the Nazis as "fellow Germans". Nazism was watered and planted, and because few spoke ill, allowed to flourish and grow. If you didn't agree with their version of the German ideal, you were ridiculed and later sent off to the camps.



In some corners of "Christianity" (and I'm using this term in the absolute broadest possible sense), we see the same happening now. The Westboro Baptist Church has children carrying signs advising God hates America and wants to kill homosexuals.



At the Kingdom Halls of Jehovah Witnesses, their children are taught that God hates "Christendom", America and any church or government that doesn't immediately adopt their particular brand of Christianity.



(Note the cross on the burning church).

Radical Islam teaches that America is the great Satan while Jehovah Witnesses teach America is controlled by Satan. Islam teaches they must destroy "Christianity" through a perversion of the Koran while Witnesses teach God will destroy "Christendom" through a perversion of the bible and both groups believe the earth will become a paradise once the offending groups are eliminated.

I have been in many traditional Christian churches and even a few synagogues but I have yet to be handed a leaflet or flyer that has a picture of a burning mosque, synagogue, or Kingdom Hall. I simply cannot say the same for the Watchtower.

The problem is that for some, the only version of scripture is the one they have been taught at their places of worship, so we can be silent and allow these "truths" to stay unchallenged, or we can speak up and engage those who would have us negatively brandish others. The best way to do this is with dialogue and openly challenging their ideology. It amazes me that groups who suffer bigotry and persecution (as the JW's did under Nazism) can be so willing to engage in such bigotry now.

Here we have an image of a priest with a bible in one hand and a gun in the other (Awake! 2011). Regardless of my differences with Catholics, I could not be party to a community that endorsed the distribution of such disturbing images in my neighborhood, nor could I be silent about any group that had:


I think most folks would take ill of attacking Witnesses personally, as would I and the forum moderators, but their doctrines and teachings are fair game, especially on a religious discussion forum. Witnesses, like most folk, are honest, pleasant, and peaceful, but its like having the nice granddad who can't seem to stop going into a bigoted rampage every time the grand kids bring somebody a little different by the house.

It has come to my attention that the subject of the thread is why Jehovah and not Jesus? I am sorry that I have taken the thread off track but not too sorry as the subject of Jesus versus Jehovah has been hashed over 5000 times and the subject of who is most like the beast has not had much discourse.

savagewind said:

It has come to my attention that the subject of the thread is why Jehovah and not Jesus? I am sorry that I have taken the thread off track but not too sorry as the subject of Jesus versus Jehovah has been hashed over 5000 times and the subject of who is most like the beast has not had much discourse.

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I agree savagewind.

Carlita originally posed a question as to why a Christians disagree with Jehovah Witnesses and it kind of got derailed then. Perhaps the moderators could move these comments to a separate thread so the issue can be discussed in depth.

Nietzsche said:

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Yes, it can. It's called "2000 years of recreations". Visual elements are added or taken away while the meat of the story is unchanged. This is like a Star Trek nerd getting pissed that the Enterprise of the wrong shade of gray.

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**Visual elements** maybe "added or taken away" in a ficticious movie, but we are talking about Bible truth -- it's words haven't changed.

All I'm saying is, if the Bible's professed adherents are willing to change it, what other truths were watered down, "2000 years" ago?

Hockeycowboy said:

**Visual elements** maybe "added or taken away" in a ficticious movie, but we are talking about Bible truth -- it's words haven't changed.

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Question. Do you know any languages beyond English? Hebrew, Latin, Greek, Aramaic..? Any of the traditional languages that various bits of the Bible(old & new) were originally written in?)

All I'm saying is, if the Bible's professed adherents are willing to change it, what other truths were watered down, "2000 years" ago?

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'Nother question. Was Joseph(and by extension Jesus) a carpenter?

Nietzsche said:

Question. Do you know any languages beyond English? Hebrew, Latin, Greek, Aramaic..? Any of the traditional languages that various bits of the Bible(old & new) were originally written in?)


'Nother question. Was Joseph(and by extension Jesus) a carpenter?

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Answer to first question: No, not fluently.
Answer to second: Jesus is called "the carpenter's son" at Matthew 13:55; at Mark 6:3, he's called "the carpenter." It makes sense, since usually the oldest boy learned the trade of the father.

The Hebrew word cha*rash' means craftsman. The Greek equivalent is teʹkton, translated “carpenter”, which could also mean craftsman.

Hockeycowboy said:

Answer to first question: No, not fluently.

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So why are you making claims you can't support? I've read the OT and NT in their original languages. You've read the English translation. Here's the thing about languages; no language is perfectly translatable. Concepts & what not that exist only in the native language.

One more thing; language is a product of its era. As hard as this may be to believe, there is quite a bit of ancient "slang" in the New Testament(not as much in the OT & other Hebrew texts, if only because Hebrew began and has remained a "clergy language" of sorts). But Greek, Aramaic, Latin..? Lots of slang. Lots of cultural references you, nor I as someone with a decent knowledge of the era, fully understand.

Answer to second: Jesus is called "the carpenter's son" at Matthew 13:55; at Mark 6:3, he's called "the carpenter." It makes sense, since usually the oldest boy learned the trade of the father.

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Nope! I thought that once too. The proper translation of "Tekton" is not "Carpenter". It's a stone-cutter of sorts. A menial, back-breaking job performed by only the lowest classes of the Nazarene's era. A modern equivalent would be your average person who's forced to work in a diamond mine. However, it was translated as carpenter. Why? Because the word Tekton grew to have more meanings, and the "carpenter" definition eventually supplanted the "stone-cutter" one. This change happened over a long stretch of time, and when people X-centuries later were reading the Bible and trying to translate it, they used the definition that they were most familiar with, and what they felt to be most correct. Based on their experience.

savagewind said:

If I refuse to keep God's commands per order of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses what does the Bible say will happen to me?

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Question: What happened to the Christians living during the time of the Apostles, if they didn't listen to them? They were kicked out.

And yet, I've known many JW's who don't do exactly as they should, and they're not kicked out.

Show me a 'command per order of the governing body' that you'd "refuse to keep," and I'll show you where it is in the Bible. I've come to realize, it is Sola Scriptura for them.