The Cross, Lets talk about the cross.

Evandr2 · May 5, 2006

I was once told that I was not Christian because I don't use the cross as a symbol.

Most people will consider the answer to this question too obvious to even think about so they never do.

Will someone please explain to me why

so many Religions think you need to be looking at a cross to be reminded of what Jesus Did for us.

My question stems from the fact that crucifixion is one of the slowest and most painful way to die that could be conceived of. Think about it, the wounds themselves were not fatal so life could linger for a long time. The pain was ever increasing and never let up. If a person wanted to take some weight off of the hands so to soften the pain they had to shift it to the feet which intensified the pain and visa versa.

I greatly reverence the Lords sacrifice for us but my attention is focused upon His conquest of death and not the fact that He died.

If Jesus had suffered some other form of death of the flesh, would we all be carrying around small bows and arrows or little chopping blocks or something else to remind us of what He suffered?

I realize that the cross is just a symbol but I think is a bit much to constantly be reminded about His death and not His life.

I am also a bit dismayed

when someone displays a cross with the tortured, almost naked, and bloody representation of Christ hanging on it. Is it really necessary?

Vandr

standing_alone · May 5, 2006

Evandr2 said:
I was once told that I was not Christian because I don't use the cross as a symbol.

I think that's just stupid. It shouldn't matter what symbols you use, what should matter is what is in your heart. At least, that's my opinion.

Cerrax · May 5, 2006

At the risk of sounding morbid, the cross is actually a very disconserting symbol. It is a symbol of death. Cruxifiction occurs on a cross of wood. Swords and many other instruments of death are cross-shaped. A dead human body naturally appears in the shape of a cross (legs down, arms outsretched) and crosses are often used to instill fear and horror in works of fiction.

It hardly seems like a symbol fit for a religion so fixated on peace, love and uplifting humanity. Yet we see the cross emblazoned on sheilds, used as a symbol of health, and worn as a token of faith and love.

Its all about how you want to see it. To me, its just a shape. A shape with many interesting connotations.

standing_alone · May 5, 2006

Cerrax said:
At the risk of sounding morbid, the cross is actually a very disconserting symbol. It is a symbol of death. Cruxifiction occurs on a cross of wood. Swords and many other instruments of death are cross-shaped. A dead human body naturally appears in the shape of a cross (legs down, arms outsretched) and crosses are often used to instill fear and horror in works of fiction.

It hardly seems like a symbol fit for a religion so fixated on peace, love and uplifting humanity. Yet we see the cross emblazoned on sheilds, used as a symbol of health, and worn as a token of faith and love.

Its all about how you want to see it. To me, its just a shape. A shape with many interesting connotations.

That's very true, but something I remember being told by my pastor when I was a Christian is that the though the cross was an instrument of death, the symbol of an "empty" cross (one that doesn't have Jesus on it) symbolizes the resurrection and the the atonement of our sins. Not saying that he's right - just his perspective on it.

Booko · May 5, 2006

standing_alone said:
That's very true, but something I remember being told by my pastor when I was a Christian is that the though the cross was an instrument of death, the symbol of an "empty" cross (one that doesn't have Jesus on it) symbolizes the resurrection and the the atonement of our sins. Not saying that he's right - just his perspective on it.

That seems to be a very common Protestant take on the meaning of the cross sans Jesus.

Heck, we were even taught that it was *superior* to the Catholic crucifixes.

Seriously: What's more important? Following Jesus, as He asks? Or what sort of jewelry you have on display? sheesh

standing_alone · May 5, 2006

Booko said:
Heck, we were even taught that it was *superior* to the Catholic crucifixes.

Ha ha. I was taught that, too. But I was raised Lutheran, so we were always told about how we were "superior" to Catholics.

Booko · May 5, 2006

standing_alone said:
Ha ha. I was taught that, too. But I was raised Lutheran, so we were always told about how we were "superior" to Catholics.

Yup. I was raised Dutch Reformed. Fortunately, they've gotten over their fear of papism in the last 30 years.

...and there was much rejoicing

Bishka · May 6, 2006

Odd, what you too say about the Lutheran Church and Protestants. I agree about the cross, yes, it's a reminder of Jesus, but it's a reminder of His death, not His life.

I prefer to think about His entire life and what He did for me, not just focus on His death.

michel · May 6, 2006

beckysoup61 said:
Odd, what you too say about the Lutheran Church and Protestants. I agree about the cross, yes, it's a reminder of Jesus, but it's a reminder of His death, not His life. I prefer to think about His entire life and what He did for me, not just focus on His death.

I can see that that makes sense, but, having said that, it was the purpose of his life that he should die for our sakes, no?.......so, in using a crucifix to trigger a thought about him, isn't it a case of remembering what an astounding sacrifice he made for us?

Booko · May 6, 2006

michel said:
I can see that that makes sense, but, having said that, it was the purpose of his life that he should die for our sakes, no?.......so, in using a crucifix to trigger a thought about him, isn't it a case of remembering what an astounding sacrifice he made for us?

I think that's exactly it, Michel.

From my pov, Baha'u'llah spend 40 years in exile and imprisonment in conditions that were very harsh. And it wasn't just him -- his family was imprisoned as well. He even lost a son as a result of the imprisonment.

You know, there are times when you can get upset by things and worried about money or your health or whatever, and then if you reflect on his life, you think, "ok...so what sacrifice have I given today?" and "Why shouldn't I be able to bear this?"

The same goes when reflecting on the life and Crucifixion of Christ, I think.

Krie · May 6, 2006

I don't think that they can use the cross either. To think about it the cross is used in so many different things so you can not just pin it to christianity

Evandr2 · May 6, 2006

standing_alone said:
That's very true, but something I remember being told by my pastor when I was a Christian is that the though the cross was an instrument of death, the symbol of an "empty" cross (one that doesn't have Jesus on it) symbolizes the resurrection and the the atonement of our sins. Not saying that he's right - just his perspective on it.

I like the thought of an empty cross. I wish that the cross being empty were the intent of it's display by, sadly :sad:, t is not. Far too often I see the cross with a representation of a suffering Christ hanging from it.

I prefer, as do many who bypass and look beyond the cross as a religious symbol, to be reminded of Christ's sacrifice for us by noting the prints of the nails in the hands and feet of a living Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ Himeself uses reference to the scars on his body when he wants to remind us of what He did for us.

I certainly see nothing wrong with religious art. I have an 18" tall marble replica of the famed Christus prominently displayed in my home. It is beautiful and I am reminded of the fact that He lives but reverently cognoscente of the fact that He suffered for my sins by the scars represented in the hands and feet.

I have a lot of Christian art in my home in the form of Pictures, verse, and image but I do not pray to them. They are just beautiful reminders of who I am and they represent faith, hope, charity, and the Love of God toward men. If you wish to discuss how that differs from idolatry I will start a new thread.

It just seems that too much of Christianity focuses on pain, sorrow, fear, Hell, grief, suffering, and death when it is that which Christ conquered. Why is it that so much of Christian art, statuary, and symbolism portray these negative emotions?

If I were still seeking my religious identity and had passed up the LDS church I probably would have become a Holy Roller or maybe a Southern Baptist. I like their energy.:bounce

Vandr

Evandr2 · May 6, 2006

michel said:
I can see that that makes sense, but, having said that, it was the purpose of his life that he should die for our sakes, no?.......so, in using a crucifix to trigger a thought about him, isn't it a case of remembering what an astounding sacrifice he made for us?

Your point is well taken but His primary Goal was to provide for us a way to exaltation in the presence of the Father.

True, He had to suffer to answer the ends of the law on our behalf, but His goal is much grander than the requirements necessary to atone for our sins.

When I bow at the feet of Christ my gratitude will not be so much that He died for me, it will be that He LIVES for me and loves me enough to have suffered for me so that I can return to my Heavenly Father.

The cross is a symbol His death while the tall steeple pointing toward the heavens is a symbol of the fact that He lives. Which declaration makes more sense to place upon the top of a church?

Vandr

Booko · May 6, 2006

Evandr2 said:
It just seems that too much of Christianity focuses on pain, sorrow, fear, Hell, grief, suffering, and death when it is that which Christ conquered. Why is it that so much of Christian art, statuary, and symbolism portray these negative emotions?

Have you ever had a chance to see much of the art in Orthodox Christianity? I found the iconography to be beautiful, inspiring, and full of symbolic meaning. It didn't strike me as being very negative at all.

We have a Greek Orthodox Church near me that has a Greek festival every year, and during the festival you can take a tour of the church (well, the places laity are allowed to go, of course) and the priest gives a really great talk on Orthodox Chritianity.

In that church, the icons of Jesus look like a doppleganger for Eric Clapton but are very beautiful and inspiring even if you are not a fan of blues guitar.

Evandr2 · May 6, 2006

Booko said:
Have you ever had a chance to see much of the art in Orthodox Christianity? I found the iconography to be beautiful, inspiring, and full of symbolic meaning. It didn't strike me as being very negative at all.

We have a Greek Orthodox Church near me that has a Greek festival every year, and during the festival you can take a tour of the church (well, the places laity are allowed to go, of course) and the priest gives a really great talk on Orthodox Chritianity.

In that church, the icons of Jesus look like a doppleganger for Eric Clapton but are very beautiful and inspiring even if you are not a fan of blues guitar.

I shouldn't have used the word "Negative", maybe I should have said "Gloomy". I don't doubt that there is a lot of art that is meant to inspire joy. My comments come from the observation that it is pain and sorrow that is at the forefront of many religious public demeanors. It is what we preceive. Reverence is one thing, a good thing, but gloom is another. I do not believe that you must have gloom to portray reverence.

I really do believe that under all that gloom there is great joy and happiness to be found among the people. The Greek Festival you mentioned is just one example.

I would have Christianity focused more upon the celebration of His life than the sorrow of His death. His death and atonement are done and in full effect.

We must reverence and never forget what Christ did for us, however, sorrowing over His death to the overshadowing of the joy that He lives puts a stumbling block in front of progress.

Vandr

Katzpur · May 6, 2006

michel said:
I can see that that makes sense, but, having said that, it was the purpose of his life that he should die for our sakes, no?.......so, in using a crucifix to trigger a thought about him, isn't it a case of remembering what an astounding sacrifice he made for us?

Anyone can die, Michel. That He was willing to suffer death for us is indeed humbling and an extraordinary gesture of love. But, in and of itself, what did His death accomplish. It was the fact that He conquered death that was meaningful. It was His triumphant resurrection that assured us of eternal life. That's why I choose to focus on it instead of thinking of Him in the most painful, humiliating hours of His life.

That said, I have no real negative feelings concerning the cross, and if it helps people focus on Christ's sacrifice, it certainly doesn't bother me.

dawny0826 · May 6, 2006

Evandr2 said:
I was once told that I was not Christian because I don't use the cross as a symbol.

Most people will consider the answer to this question too obvious to even think about so they never do.

Will someone please explain to me why so many Religions think you need to be looking at a cross to be reminded of what Jesus Did for us.

My question stems from the fact that crucifixion is one of the slowest and most painful way to die that could be conceived of. Think about it, the wounds themselves were not fatal so life could linger for a long time. The pain was ever increasing and never let up. If a person wanted to take some weight off of the hands so to soften the pain they had to shift it to the feet which intensified the pain and visa versa.

I greatly reverence the Lords sacrifice for us but my attention is focused upon His conquest of death and not the fact that He died.

If Jesus had suffered some other form of death of the flesh, would we all be carrying around small bows and arrows or little chopping blocks or something else to remind us of what He suffered?

I realize that the cross is just a symbol but I think is a bit much to constantly be reminded about His death and not His life.

I am also a bit dismayed when someone displays a cross with the tortured, almost naked, and bloody representation of Christ hanging on it. Is it really necessary?

Vandr

Christ's life was very important...because it was during His lifetime that He taught us how to LIVE for God...how to walk with God and how to commune with God.

But it was through his DEATH and RESURRECTION that we were shown HOW to DIE to LIVE. The cross is a precious symbol...because to become a Christian...to experience the rebirth in Christ...we are to abandon the ways of the flesh and pick up our own CROSS and follow Christ.

So, yes, the cross is a very precious symbol to me because it's a reminder that because I have faith in Christ...who hung in agony on that cross, I am forgiven of my sins and have everlasting life in Christ.

Christ's life was incredibly important but greater was his TRIUMPH over death. And because of His precious sacrifice...all who pick up their own CROSSES and follow him also defeat the death.

Whenever I look at the cross that hangs around my neck...I'm reminded that I have LIFE in Christ and in Christ only.

telecino · May 6, 2006

Go with Standing_alone.

A symbol is a focus used by your mind. Unless you have something to prove to others, you don't have to wiggle your symbol out in the open, wether its a cross, pentagram, wu-ji, lingam, kirpan,...

open_mind · May 6, 2006

no doubt christians take their religion from Jesus as he is the origin of Christianity
a question please:
did Jesus ask christians to use the cross as a holy symbol?

if NO,then why does the cross act as a clear title for christianity all over the world,i mean why do christians follow a basic not ordered by their lord?

if YES,HOW???,the cross was Jesus' end

another question
did Jesus' companions use the cross in their prayers during Jesus' life with them??

SunMessenger · May 6, 2006

Evandr2 said:
I was once told that I was not Christian because I don't use the cross as a symbol.

Most people will consider the answer to this question too obvious to even think about so they never do.

Will someone please explain to me why so many Religions think you need to be looking at a cross to be reminded of what Jesus Did for us.

My question stems from the fact that crucifixion is one of the slowest and most painful way to die that could be conceived of. Think about it, the wounds themselves were not fatal so life could linger for a long time. The pain was ever increasing and never let up. If a person wanted to take some weight off of the hands so to soften the pain they had to shift it to the feet which intensified the pain and visa versa.

I greatly reverence the Lords sacrifice for us but my attention is focused upon His conquest of death and not the fact that He died.

If Jesus had suffered some other form of death of the flesh, would we all be carrying around small bows and arrows or little chopping blocks or something else to remind us of what He suffered?

I realize that the cross is just a symbol but I think is a bit much to constantly be reminded about His death and not His life.

I am also a bit dismayed when someone displays a cross with the tortured, almost naked, and bloody representation of Christ hanging on it. Is it really necessary?

Vandr

Like you I prefer to picture Jesus as Risen and Alive. The cross is a symbol of what he carried for us. Only He could carry the cross. I am reminded of this each time I see one. Its is a powerful reminder of how brutal man can be. Sometimes we must be reminded of our history so as not to repeat it again... Thank You

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." - Matthew 16:24

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