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Why fear and what's bad about psychic phenomena

Rise

Well-Known Member
Psychic phenomena and mediumship takes on many different forms
Mediumship is expressly forbidden in the Bible and never used by any Godly person.
The idea of surrendering control of yourself to a demonic spirit, or acting as a vessel through which it can communicate and act, goes against everything the Bible tells us from beginning to end.
Biblically, only the Holy Spirit is allowed into the temple of your body. To invite anything else in willingly, or to reject the Holy Spirit, is what leads to destruction and damnation.

Psychic phenomena is also likely a form of mediumship. Many believe, even former occultists turned Christian, that it is not something people activate through thier own power; but rather something they do in concert with demonic forces that they allow to work through them.
Others believe that our own soul has the power to generate psychic activity independant of any other force (either good or bad).

If we were to assume the later (which I don't believe is the case, and see no biblical evidence for that idea) then there is an important qualifier that must be understood about what constitutes a good versus a bad use of a natural ability. Example: We have the power to freely move our hands; which we can use to feed the poor or kill the innocent. Biblically we know what seperates good and bad use of our hands is whether or not that action is done in obedience to God's will and in line with his character.

That's the major distinction that I see is missing from your post, and it applies to everything you listed - Is what you are doing submitted to God, or in rebellion to him?

The Bible also tells us that there are counterfiet miracles. When Moses confronted Pharaoh, the Pharaoh's magicians were able to duplicate some of the miracles Moses performed. We also see several new testament warnings to watch out for those who practice signs and wonders that serve a lie (2 Thessalonians 2:9). We see in Matthew 7:22-23 that it is possible to perform miracles without being in relationship with Jesus - And they are called evildoers for this.

Yet Moses demonstrated the superiority of true miracles from God by his seperent eating up the ones created by the magicians. Furthermore, we see later on that there are many miracles done by God, through Moses, are so superior that the magicians can't even begin to duplicate it.

This brings us to another important point: God's power is always superior to any demonic or personal power someone would seek to possess.

This is routinely demonstrated throughout the Bible, especially with Elijah calling down fire from heaven when 400 prophets of baal could not conjure up even a spark with all their rituals.
We also see in Isaiah that only God truly knows what the future is going to be. Fortune tellers who work through demons can't guarantee anything because they aren't all knowing able to see the end from the beginning. They work by calculating probabilities. Or they work by declaring what they intend to cause to happen; but they are not able to guarantee it will happen. In contrast, God can make such guarantees because he is all powerful.

So why do some people not want to come to God and experience his true power and knowledge? Because he works on his terms, not ours. Most people who seek power through the occult want to use that power for their own purposes, in the way they want. They want either to glorify themselves, satisify their lusts, or be in control. That is why is is said that rebellion to God is like the sin of witchcraft (1 Sameul 15:23) Because essentially witchcraft is all about obtaining things God would give us, but trying to obtain it without going through God, because they don't want to have to be submitted to God's will.

So again, this goes back to the core problem with everything you listed: Most of it is associated with occult people doing their own thing and being willing to submit to demonic powers to get what they want.
Anytime you see genuine miracles of similar types done in the Bible, you see it being done through the power of God - not by the power of the person. You also see that it is something done that serves the purposes of God, or is in line with his character.

Why is it so important? It's what's best for us. Practically it's for our protection. The Bible says Satan comes only to lie, steal and destroy (John 10:10). Any demonic force someone aligns themselves with, however benign or helpful it might seem at first (satan poses as an angel of light, 2 corinthians 11:14), you have to remember that ultimately their only goal is to see the human race destroyed and suffer as retribution upon us for being created in the image of God whom they hate. Their fate is already sealed and they just want to drag down as many as they can with them before Jesus returns to put an end to it. You can't trust them. Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44). Anything they do is designed to ultimately lead to physical destruction and suffering in the long run, or eternal seperation from God, but usually both.
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
It is everywhere in the bible. It was practiced by all the prophets and holy men from Abraham to Jesus (http://goo.gl/s4x08A). It happened before and it continues to happen to ordinary people of every race and creed, every day, everywhere.
Try to specify what each person in the Bible actually did, and you will quickly find a lot of what you listed wasn't something they did, or the version of it you are referencing was not what they were practicing.

Let's go through the list specifically:
speaking in tongues,
A genuine spiritual gift.
However, going back to what I just said, there is such a thing as demonic tongues where one submits themselves to pray the prayers of demons instead of the perfect will of God.

The difference between the two is everything. One leads to life, the other leads to destruction.
spirit communications by Spiritualists and Spiritists,
Any kind of mediumship is expressly forbidden in the bible and not practiced by any godly person.

God will speak to people through angels, but this is purely an external encounter like meeting with a normal person.

Never does God have his people become a channel or vessel for any spirit other than the Holy Spirit of God. To do such a thing is probably the greatest offense possible in Bible because it is seperating yourself from God and leads to an increase in all other sins.

fortune telling
By definition this was never done by any godly person, because it implies someone fortelling the future independant of God's revelation to them.

Prophets of God are given their knowledge of future events, or knowledge about the proper course of action, directly by God. He is their sole and only source. It is not something they can conjure up by their own will.

Balaam is an example of someone who heard from God but explains to the pagan king that he can only speak the words God gives him. This upset the pagan king because he expected that Balaam could proclaim a curse over Israel and then it would happen because Balaam somehow had the power to do what he did. Balaam explains that he cannot curse what God has blessed, but can only declare the blessing God has already given them.

and the use of crystals or Ouija boards,
Again, the same distinction as above has to be made. Ouija boards by design invite any spirit in, trying to establish contact with demons or dead human spirits (which many don't believe is possible. They believe the demons are just posing as people).

It is also forbidden in the Bible to talk with the dead.

The Urim and the Thummin of the Bible were something used to consult God himself for an answer, and used only in the way God prescribed them to.
life readings by Edgar Cayce,
Same principles as before. There is such a thing as genuine prophets who can speak your destiny over you, but their source is God - Who is the only one able to reveal why you were created and for what purpose.

Anything you get from a source other than God is going to be wrong, and probaby harmful if believed and followed.
prophecies by Nostradamus, premonitions, prophetic dreams, clairvoyance
Isaiah 44:7-9
Isaiah 46:9-10
As I already said, if God is not your source then you'll never get fully accurate information. You may get outright lies designed to lead you away from the truth.

That is why the Bible warns against false prophets, and says that if what a prophet says fails to comes to pass then they are to be stoned as a false prophet.
telepathy,
There's no instance of this in the Bible.

When things or people move it's because God or his angels moved them.

People who have come out of the occult will tell you that it was demons who moved objects on their behalf, making them think they were doing it with their own power. Many talk about how after converting to follow Jesus they lost the "powers" that were associated with their demonic help. They do, however, unlock access to the power that comes from God. Sometimes gradually.

astral projection
In instances of physical transport or spiritual transport in the Bible, it is always said to be the Spirit of God that initiates this action and performs it by his power.

Never is the man of God able to do this by their own power. They certainly never consulted demons to have this done.
faith healing or psychic surgery.
Jesus warned against those who claim to do miracles in his name but were never really in relationship with him, calling them evildoers. (Matthew 7:22-23)

How much more would he warn against those who claim to do miracles and don't even claim to know Jesus?
Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Acts 2:28
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
The implication of God pouring out his Spirit is that you experience these things only by his Spirit.

If you have not recieved the baptism in God's Holy Spirit, and are in active communion with God via his Holy Spirit, as happened to the apostles in Acts 2, then you cannot prophesy by the Holy Spirit. Nor can you expect to be able to discern a truth dream or vision and understand it's meaning (as Daniel was the only one able to interpret Nebuchadnezzar's dream).

There are several examples in the Bible where God works through those who don't know him to dream something from God, usually as a warning, but they do not initiate that encounter of a dream from God.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Believing on Jesus is the key part there. If you don't have that then you won't do the works of Jesus, let alone greater works.

Understanding what that means, to having abiding trust in Jesus, requires looking at the rest of John 14 and 15. Here we see a clear picture of someone who is in active communion with Jesus, abiding in him, gaining access through faith and trust in him, and maintaining that relationship by willing humble submission to the command of Jesus.

Missing from most of the people who practice all the things in your list is this very picture of a relationship with Jesus via the Holy Spirit in us.

If Christ, himself, tells us that we will do all those things, ourselves, why do Christians, who profess him to be their God, hesitate in fear?

What is there to be afraid of? Why do many religious brand it demonic?
There are legitimate spiritual gifts that Christians are afraid of because their traditions have said that those things don't happen anymore. They are wrong, biblically, and it can easily be shown that their presuppositions are flawed.

However, a lot of what you've talked about is not legitimate. You're talking about satanic counterfeit versions of legitimate Godly gifts.

The distinction has to be made and understood before any move can be made towards operating in legitimate Spiritual gifts.
Why are we warned to keep away?
Keeping away from the illegitimate versions of these gifts?
You can see my answer to that at the end of my preceding post.
What dangers lurk and how can we safeguard ourselves from harm?
The best and only safeguard is relationship with Jesus. Without that it leads to destruction and eternal damnation.

You need to have your senses trained to discern good from evil (Hebrews 5:14) if you don't want to get carried away by deception and end up eternally condemned.
For so long as we are ignorant of the underlying principles, we will remain in the dark. But as we open ourselves to the reality and pursue its study, the fear will dissipate and the knowledge we acquire can liberate and empower us.
It is not knowledge that empowers legitimate spiritual gifts, but God.

The best thing you can do is to study the biblical gifts and how to have a closer relationship with God, if you want to see them manifest more in your life.

With Jesus, we could cast even a mountain into the sea with just a spoken word (Matthew 17:20)

That requires a willingness to submit to the Lordship of Jesus in your life. Without which you cannot access anything he has, but with it all things he has are ours.
Apart from Jesus we can do nothing (John 15:5)
Jesus was able to speak a word and see it happen because he had unbroken and perfect communion with the Father. Someone like Elijah and Moses I am sure must have had an incredible level of communion with God to be used the way they were.
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
You ask why Christians don't embrace these things. Part of the disconnect in your understanding about why Christians reject these things comes from the fact that the things you currently believe don't line up with what the Bible says about spiritual truth.

In the Spirit reality, except for our having been endowed with eternal life and our inherent properties and capabilities, there are no free gifts.
Everything else must be merited.
Romans 3:24
Ephesians 2:8-9
Acts 2:38
1 Corinthians 12:28
Acts 8:15-22
Salvation, the baptism in Holy Spirit, and the various Spiritual gifts are gifts from God meant to be received. Nothing you can do will ever merit it.

It takes many lifetimes to become proficient

Hebrews 9:27
John 5:28-29
Man dies once and faces judgement.

but whatever we learn and what spiritual faculties we develop now, should we decide to do so, will never be lost.They will be accessible to us in our future incarnations.

1 Corinthians 13:8
The legitimate spiritual gifts we develop won't even exist forever, because when Jesus returns and we are resurrected we will have no need for the Gifts of the Holy Spirit which were just a downpayment on what would later be realized in fullness - complete restoration of creation and relationship with God.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Anything not built on the foundation of Jesus will be lost.
Provided we arm ourselves with good intentions and for as long as we use whatever abilities we acquire for the good of others, God will protect us from all possible harm.

Matthew 7:22-27

Romans 1:18-20. Romans 2:14-16. Romans 3:23.
Everyone has sinned. Everyone stands condemned.

God is not obligated to protect a condemned person from the consequences of their decision. It is only by his grace and mercy that anyone receives pardon.

He protects those who are in covenantal relationship with him. We see this spelled out in the mosaic covenant as an example of the blessings that will be upon Israeli if they remain obedient to God, and the curses that will come upon them if they take after idols.

2 Samuel 22:3-4. Isaiah 41:10. Isaiah 54:17. Romans 8:28. Daniel 12:1. 1 John 5:18. Psalm 91:1-2. Psalm 91:5-13. Psalm 91:1-16.
All throughout scripture we see the same theme; those who are in relationship with the Lord are those who are protected and saved. Even the Exodus account, with the final plague falling upon all Egypt; only those who trusted in God and were obedient to put the blood of a lamb on their doorposts were saved in the midst of it.

We see Israel and the nations judged for sins and their idolatry. No where is there any indication that you can live in relationship with demons, in rebellion to God, but then benefit from his blessings of protection because you think you have good intentions. Many evil things have been done in the name of good intentions, because what seems right to a man is not always good (proverbs 14:12). Man is not capable of being declared good apart from God (Ecclesiastes 7:20) (Luke 18:19). God defines what is good, as it is his very nature. If we aren't willing to submit to what he says is good then we will as a consequence inevitably do evil.

Why develop, you may ask. Have you ever wondered what if Jesus did not demonstrate his “powers.” Would he have been believed as much? And yes, it is precisely because of the information gleaned from these occurrences that we are able to learn of the Real World, the World of Spirit and Higher Heavens.

Jesus did not demonstrated miracles to people for the purpose of being believed. In every case he served people by ministering to them in the power of the Spirit; healing, feeding, delivering, etc.
Jesus specifically rebukes those who sought him with skeptical hearts demanding that he perform a miracle simply to prove himself to them. He doesn't need to prove himself to anybody; he's Lord of the universe, creator of all things. He refused to perform a miracle to satisify their skepticism and told them his eventual death and resurrection would be the only sign they would be given.
Jesus never refused to perform a healing miracle for someone who was seeking him with a need.

Things like walking on water were only seen by his 12 disciples. And the transfiguration encounter with Moses and Elijah was seen only by his 3 closest disciples. After his resurrection he appeared only to his disciples. It is abundantly clear that Jesus wasn't trying to forcibly convince an unbelieving world that had no desire for truth. The bible says that in the end every knee will bow and tongue confess that he is Lord. Romans 14:11 , Philippians 2:10. He could have chosen to make himself irresistibly known, but he chose to draw to himself people who were hungry for the truth.


Things change over time. Even the unrepentant will learn to seek God. And everyone, in spite of our faults and weaknesses, will be able to make progress. Christ assures us, “You must be perfect.” And we will, all of us, in His time.

Christ was not assuring people of anything when he said "you must be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).
He was summarizing his entire long sermon on the mount about what obedience to the law really looks like, and finished by saying that ultimately we are called to be perfect in thought and behavior just as God is.



No where in the Bible does it say that everyone will obtain that perfection.


There is the implication that some will obtain to that perfection at a future date.
1 Corinthians 15 talks about resurrection to a glorified incorruptible state, but it is linked with being in Christ. It is not for everyone.


John 5:28-29, Mark 9:47-48, Matthew 25:41, 46
It is very clear that not everyone has the same fate after the resurrection.

I'd like to know what scripture you think supports the idea that everyone will repent.
All throughout Revelation we see that the people against God refuse to repent, no matter how many signs come and how many calamities fall upon them. Revelation 9:21, Revelation 16:11. We also see in Exodus that Pharaoh never repented of his desire to enslave the Hebrews, no matter how great the signs and calamities that came against them, which eventually lead to his death.



 
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Yoshua

Well-Known Member
Yes. Exactly. But keep it simple. And reconstruct everything in your own words. That way, you will never be misled.
Angel,

Yes, of course in Christ. I will never misled in Christ, and not by detestable practices such as spiritism, medium, seance and deception from the evil one.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Mediumship is expressly forbidden in the Bible and never used by any Godly person.
The idea of surrendering control of yourself to a demonic spirit, or acting as a vessel through which it can communicate and act, goes against everything the Bible tells us from beginning to end.
Biblically, only the Holy Spirit is allowed into the temple of your body. To invite anything else in willingly, or to reject the Holy Spirit, is what leads to destruction and damnation.
But Samuel wasn't a demon. Also, arguing that the Holy Spirit is okay but nothing else is splitting hairs, as mediumship is still being done.

Psychic phenomena is also likely a form of mediumship. Many believe, even former occultists turned Christian, that it is not something people activate through thier own power; but rather something they do in concert with demonic forces that they allow to work through them.
Others believe that our own soul has the power to generate psychic activity independant of any other force (either good or bad).
Don't we also run the risk of becoming like those who claimed Jesus' superpowers were of demonic sources?

The Bible also tells us that there are counterfiet miracles. When Moses confronted Pharaoh, the Pharaoh's magicians were able to duplicate some of the miracles Moses performed. We also see several new testament warnings to watch out for those who practice signs and wonders that serve a lie (2 Thessalonians 2:9). We see in Matthew 7:22-23 that it is possible to perform miracles without being in relationship with Jesus - And they are called evildoers for this.
When you are trying to hold a monopoly on spiritual services, dissing the competition is bound to happen.

Yet Moses demonstrated the superiority of true miracles from God by his seperent eating up the ones created by the magicians. Furthermore, we see later on that there are many miracles done by God, through Moses, are so superior that the magicians can't even begin to duplicate it.
Been reading the Mahabharata. Krishna does a lot of stuff that makes Jesus look lazy by comparison...

This is routinely demonstrated throughout the Bible, especially with Elijah calling down fire from heaven when 400 prophets of baal could not conjure up even a spark with all their rituals.
I question why God feels the need to engage in "pissing contests", especially if other gods don't exist.
We also see in Isaiah that only God truly knows what the future is going to be. Fortune tellers who work through demons can't guarantee anything because they aren't all knowing able to see the end from the beginning. They work by calculating probabilities. Or they work by declaring what they intend to cause to happen; but they are not able to guarantee it will happen. In contrast, God can make such guarantees because he is all powerful.
So, since Jesus says only the Father knows when the End Times will come, everyone who thinks Jesus knew means that Jesus was of Satan? And we're back to being the people accusing him of being of Satan and risking blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is the ONLY unforgivable sin, IIRC.

Why is it so important? It's what's best for us. Practically it's for our protection. The Bible says Satan comes only to lie, steal and destroy (John 10:10).
Which itself is a lie, as there is no scene with Satan where he lies at any point. Being a jerk for calling you out on your stuff is NOT lying.

The difference between the two is everything. One leads to life, the other leads to destruction.
What did speaking in tongues accomplish? God doesn't need humans to speak to humans. It also goes against God's issue with being able to communicate with everyone in the first place, or is He cool with it centuries after Babel?

Prophets of God are given their knowledge of future events, or knowledge about the proper course of action, directly by God. He is their sole and only source. It is not something they can conjure up by their own will.
The sign of a false prophet is that they are wrong. There are biblical prophecies that just didn't happen or won't happen. Biblical prophets and those post-biblical people who claim prophecy just say that "well, it just hasn't happened yet". Jesus' second coming has rested on that lie for 2k years...

Balaam is an example of someone who heard from God but explains to the pagan king that he can only speak the words God gives him. This upset the pagan king because he expected that Balaam could proclaim a curse over Israel and then it would happen because Balaam somehow had the power to do what he did. Balaam explains that he cannot curse what God has blessed, but can only declare the blessing God has already given them.
Balaam wasn't a biblical prophet. He was just relaying a message from God. That was that one instance, so who did he get his info from when not on that particular mission and if not God, why did God suddenly hire him?

Ouija boards by design invite any spirit in
I don't get my spiritualism from Parker Brothers. That's like saying I am getting economic degrees by playing Monopoly.

That is why the Bible warns against false prophets, and says that if what a prophet says fails to comes to pass then they are to be stoned as a false prophet.
"So, the end of the world is totally coming before you guys die in this generation." -- Jesus (did anyone bother to remind him of this issue?)

There's no instance of this in the Bible.
Jesus, noting someone about something they were doing when he wasn't there. Arguably also anytime people get messages from God, as God doesn't email.

Jesus warned against those who claim to do miracles in his name but were never really in relationship with him, calling them evildoers. (Matthew 7:22-23)
The apostles were mad these people were doing miracles in Jesus' name. Jesus said whoever isn't against him is for him.

If you have not recieved the baptism in God's Holy Spirit, and are in active communion with God via his Holy Spirit, as happened to the apostles in Acts 2, then you cannot prophesy by the Holy Spirit.
Where did this happen to Balaam? Cyrus?

Nor can you expect to be able to discern a truth dream or vision and understand it's meaning (as Daniel was the only one able to interpret Nebuchadnezzar's dream).
You don't need superpowers to intrepret the ridiculously obvious "foreshadowing" dreams of the Pharoah or Neb or anyone else. These people weren't that complicated.

Believing on Jesus is the key part there. If you don't have that then you won't do the works of Jesus, let alone greater works.
Jesus said if you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you could verbally get a mountain to move. When Indra threw a temper tantrum, Kid Krishna lifted a mountain to protect his people. Even Jesus didn't do it.

He protects those who are in covenantal relationship with him.
Job? His family?

God defines what is good, as it is his very nature.
So goodness is not objective reality, but whatever God says it is per His mood?

Jesus did not demonstrated miracles to people for the purpose of being believed. In every case he served people by ministering to them in the power of the Spirit; healing, feeding, delivering, etc.
Did he feed masses when not giving sermons?

Things like walking on water were only seen by his 12 disciples. And the transfiguration encounter with Moses and Elijah was seen only by his 3 closest disciples. After his resurrection he appeared only to his disciples. It is abundantly clear that Jesus wasn't trying to forcibly convince an unbelieving world that had no desire for truth.
So Jesus berates people for asking for signs, and then does signs that hardly anyone sees ... why, again? Needs the practice? Who was helped by these instances of showing off? I thought Jesus declined Satan's temptation to show off?
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
You can open up to the New Teachings or you will stay rooted where you are.

The Bible tells us specifically to stay rooted in Christ.
Colossians 2:6-8
John 15:5
Ephesians 3:17-18

Why would we want to uproot and follow the vain deceptions and the doctrines of demons?
1 Timothy 4:1

What you are advocating isn't even new. All of these supposedly new religious ideas and activities have been around as long as false religions have existed. Demonic deception has been something humanity has dealt with ever since the fall.

"I have used proverbs to tell you these things, but the time is coming when the truth shall not be so veiled and I will speak to you plainly about the Father." (JN 16)

"If you adhere to my teaching, you will really be my disciples; and you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free." (JN 8)

"Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you cannot understand it now. When the Spirit of Holiness and Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth." (JN 16)

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (JN 14)

Jesus has spoken. We should listen!

Listen to what exactly? The scriptures you quoted don't support your viewpoint at all. I'm curious what you think Jesus is saying in those verses.

I also find it puzzling why you try to appeal to the scripture to advance your viewpoint when almost none of your stated theological and spiritual views are actually consistent with scripture (as I outlined in my last post).

Let Jesus and the Holy Spirits teach you themselves, directly. There are no better teachers.
If the scripture is God's inspired truth, then Jesus and the Holy Spirit will never tell us something that contradicts truth already revealed through scripture.

He would not be the "Spirit of Truth"(as even the scripture you quoted declares He is) if He did that.

You're being guided by a different spirit down the path of destruction. I say that in earnestness that you hear the truth plainly spoken, for your own sake.
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
But Samuel wasn't a demon.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make; but Saul was knowingly breaking God's law when he sought an occult medium to speak to Samuel. So there's no question about what the scripture says regarding this.

It's is very likely that he didn't even talk to Samuel anyway; but that it was a demon posing as Samuel. The spirit never even identifies itself as Samuel, and the medium never says it is Samuel. The medium just says she sees a ghostly figure wearing a robe and then Saul declares that he believes it is Samuel.

If, however, we were to assume he was speaking with Samuel, we would have to assume based on scripture that God sovereignly chose to let Samuel speak to Saul to inform him of his fate - having nothing at all to do with the medium's powers or influence.
We have no reason to believe that individual humans or demonic powers have any power to call down the spirits of individuals at their whim, when those individuals reside in the presence of God under his authority, given that God is higher than any authority or power in the universe (Ephesians 1:20-21)

Also, arguing that the Holy Spirit is okay but nothing else is splitting hairs, as mediumship is still being done.

God decides what is ok. You're arguing with God at this point, not me - because the Bible is very clear about this issue.

God created us to abide in His spirit, and not to commit spiritual adultery with demons.
You find this theme woven throughout the core of the entire Bible. It is the central issue behind why man fell, and the central issue behind how Jesus rescues us to restore our relationship with the Father.

If you believe a created being such as a demon spirit is equivalent to the eternal and uncreated Holy Spirit of God, whom is our source of all life and creation (John 6:63, Job 33:4), then you are operating out of a very grave ignorance of Biblical truth.

Don't we also run the risk of becoming like those who claimed Jesus' superpowers were of demonic sources?

Through relationship with God we gain discernment between his Spirit and other spirits.

John 10:27
Psalm 111:10
Philippians 1:9-10
Hebrews 5:14
James 1:5
1 Corinthians 12:10

So the answer to your question is that it can happen to someone who lacks discernment, but God has not left his people without the ability to discern.

When you are trying to hold a monopoly on spiritual services, dissing the competition is bound to happen.

God already has all uncontested power and authority. This is clear in the Bible, and I don't think you doubt the Bible says that.

Demonstrations of God's authority over everything is something done for your sake; so that you might believe and make a choice for life instead of death.

God demonstrated the supposed gods of Egypt and idolworshipping Israel to be powerless and useless by great miraculous acts, for the purpose of turning the people away from their useless idols towards the one true living God.

Been reading the Mahabharata. Krishna does a lot of stuff that makes Jesus look lazy by comparison...
Jesus said if you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you could verbally get a mountain to move. When Indra threw a temper tantrum, Kid Krishna lifted a mountain to protect his people. Even Jesus didn't do it.

I don't believe the Mahabharata is an accurate representation of spiritual and historical truth. I suspect you don't believe it's true either. In which case, drawing comparisons to it and the Bible don't serve to advance any point.

So, since Jesus says only the Father knows when the End Times will come, everyone who thinks Jesus knew means that Jesus was of Satan?

Jesus never declared a false word of the future because he spoke only what he heard the Father saying. (John 12:49 , John 5:19, John 8:28)
Matthew 24:34-35

We see in the Bible that Jesus models for us how we are to have relationship with Father perfectly, and to that end he takes on the limitations of humanity, wherein he knows and does only what comes from the Father.
Hebrews 2:14-17
Philippians 2:5-8
Hebrews 4:15
Acts 10:37-38
John 14:12
2 Corinthians 8:9
2 Peter 1:4

And we're back to being the people accusing him of being of Satan and risking blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which is the ONLY unforgivable sin, IIRC.
Do you know why it's unforgiveable, even though the sacrifice of Jesus is capable of forgiving all sins?

If you willingly reject the Holy Spirit (which is to reject God and Jesus), considering God to be evil, then you have rejected your only source of forgiveness from your sin; there is no option left for you but to die in your sin, cut off from the source of life.

Which itself is a lie, as there is no scene with Satan where he lies at any point.

You don't need to go very far into the Bible to find Satan lying. It's right there at the beginning in Genesis 3:4-5. If you dispute he lied, look at 1 Timothy 2:14.
And if you doubt that this is Satan behind the lie in the garden, you need to read Revelation 12:9 and 2 Corinthians 11:3.

You're also putting yourself in the odd position of accusing Jesus of being a liar, because He said explicitly that Satan is not only a liar but the source of all lies.
John 8:44

Paul affirms this:
2 Corinthians 11:14
Ephesians 6:11
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10

What did speaking in tongues accomplish?

Speaking in a language you don't know that others can understand, speaking the word of God to them - Acts 2:6
Prophesying the word of God through tongues - 1 Corinthians 14:5
Praying the perfect prayers of God, via the Spirit - Romans 8:26-27. 1 Corinthians 14:2. 1 Corinthians 14:14.
Building ourselves up in faith - Jude 1:20
Surrendering to God's will - James 3:3-8

God doesn't need humans to speak to humans.

God doesn't technically "need" anyone for anything. However, from Genesis to Revelation, we see God chooses to involve humanity as a partner in his plan of redemption. Whether it be prophesying the word of God, preaching the gospel to the nations, or being the hands and feet of Christ as ones who bind up the broken and care for the needy.

It also goes against God's issue with being able to communicate with everyone in the first place, or is He cool with it centuries after Babel?

You misunderstand what the tower of Babel account is all about.

The people were united in rebellion to God. It was not their communication that was the problem, but their united rebellion. It was ultimately God's mercy to confuse their language so that their unity would be lost; that salvation might come to them and their descendants.

Furthermore, speaking by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is an act of yielding to God. You cannot be in rebellion to God while speaking His perfect will in tongues.
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
The sign of a false prophet is that they are wrong.

That is incorrect.
There are two signs of a false prophet.
The first is what they have said will happen does not happen. The second is they try to lead God's people away from the one true God, even if what they said will happen does. So seemingly accurate predictions of the future are not in themselves proof that you should listen to someone.
There are biblical prophecies that just didn't happen or won't happen. Biblical prophets and those post-biblical people who claim prophecy just say that "well, it just hasn't happened yet". Jesus' second coming has rested on that lie for 2k years...

There was never a time-line given for certain prophecies and promises.
In the case of Israel's exile to Babylon, an exact timetable was given by a prophet and came true.

We've seen the prophecy of the nation of Israel being reborn come about. Thousands of years later.

2 Peter 3:9

Balaam wasn't a biblical prophet. He was just relaying a message from God.

Try to explain the difference between the two, as you understand it. Because I can tell you that your statement is not refuting anything I pointed out.

My original point was that as a prophet of God gets their propetic knowledge from God, and it is clear from the scripture that Balaam spoke as a prophet of God (A prophet of God being one who accurately declares the word and will of God).

That was that one instance, so who did he get his info from when not on that particular mission and if not God, why did God suddenly hire him?

The Bible doesn't say God hired Balaam.

Balaam served the one true God. He spoke with Him. He had relationship. The Spirit of God came upon him. He spoke the words of God to other men. He knows that he must Obey God, and he does.
Numbers 22:8-9
Numbers 22:12-14
Numbers 22:18
Numbers 22:19-21
Numbers 22:33-35
Numbers 22:38
Numbers 23:3-7
Numbers 23:11-12
Numbers 23:25-26
Numbers 24: 2-3
Numbers 24:10-13

Balaam ultimately fell into wickeness because he desired to be honored by men. He was all too eager to keep trying to speak the word of God hoping that maybe a curse would come out (Numbers 23:27), even though it was clear that God had nothing but blessings to speak over Israel.
Balaam might have been technically obedient, but his heart was set on evil desires; which is what angered God.

Seeking to gain honor from men, and not able to deliver a curse by speaking the word of the God, he teaches the pagan king to lead Israel into sin so that a curse would come upon them.
Numbers 24:14
Numbers 31:15-16
Revelation 2:14

That is why he is particularly reviled in Jewish tradition; because having known the one true God he still was moved to betray the people of God for his own gain.

Going back to my original point. The account of Balaam demonstrates quite clearly about how one who truly prophesies from God speaks only the words of God, without adding or taking away from it.

I don't get my spiritualism from Parker Brothers. That's like saying I am getting economic degrees by playing Monopoly.

You missed the point as it pertains to this thread, and your comment has no relevance to what I said.

As I already said: A Ouija board by design is inviting spirits to enter into your presence and even your body, acting as a medium for them to act.

It doesn't matter what form it takes: the concept of seeking to act as a medium for demonic spirits goes against clear Biblical mandates and no such methods were ever used by any Godly person in the Bible.

"So, the end of the world is totally coming before you guys die in this generation." -- Jesus (did anyone bother to remind him of this issue?)

Context. The generation that will not pass away can easily be referring to the generation which sees those signs.

Another possible reading is that "generation" can be translated as "race". This could refer to the Jewish race not passing away until all those things happen.

Jesus, noting someone about something they were doing when he wasn't there. Arguably also anytime people get messages from God, as God doesn't email.

In my original comment I made the mistake of misreading "telepathy" as "telekinesis" when I said there was no instance of that in the Bible. I apologize for that mistake.

With regards to telepathy, it goes back to what you think the motive power behind it is.
If it is done by communion with Demons it is obviously forbidden.
Even if you think the power behind telepathy is a natural human ability, we can establish that using spiritual gifts outside of the direction and will of God is sin. Any action done outside of the will of God is rebellion to Him, and sin.

However, communicating with God via the Spirit of God is what we were created for. So you cannot claim that demonic empowered telepathy, or the rebellious use of a natural gift, is equivalent to speaking directly to God.

The apostles were mad these people were doing miracles in Jesus' name. Jesus said whoever isn't against him is for him.

You're trying to bridge together two completely different instances, and it doesn't work.

The apostles were acting out of their own envy. We have no reason to believe that the man performing miracles in the name of Jesus in Mark 9 was not in right relationship with God, doing his will, with right motives.

In contrast, Jesus specifically warns us that there will be people coming who don't know him, who are not in relationship with him, who don't do the will of the Father, who say they do works in the name of Jesus yet are evildoers. Matthew 7:22-23
Where did this happen to Balaam? Cyrus?

I gave you about a dozen verses establishing that Balaam moved in prophesy by the Spirit of God, in obedient relationship with God.

Nothing in the Bible tells us that Cyrus was a prophet of God or moved in prophesy.

You don't need superpowers to intrepret the ridiculously obvious "foreshadowing" dreams of the Pharoah or Neb or anyone else. These people weren't that complicated.

It's easy to arrogantly claim that such dreams are obvious when the interpretation has already been given for us by God.
But the Bible establishes for us that, in truth, there was no one who could interpret the dreams until a man of God was found. The writing on the wall at Belshzzar's feast is another example.
2 Peter 1:20


Job? His family?

First off, I said "in covenant", and Job wasn't a part of either the Mosaic or New Covenant.

However, Job worshipped the one true God, feared him, and lived righteously as defined by God.

That is no doubt why God does prevent Job from being killed:
Job 1:12
Job 42:10
And restores him to greater than before. He says he got double back because his family is still accounted as eternally alive, and he knows they are not truly lost to him.

It should be noted that the restoration comes after he has a personal encounter with God, establishing relationship. He now "knows" God, instead of just knowing about him.

Your comment is also irrelevant to the original point I was making: Which is that there is no biblical basis for believing that God will extend his covenant blessings and promises upon those who are not in covenant with Him.
Additionally, we see in scripture that all sins is eventually judged, leading to death and destruction. Believing you have good motives isn't going to obligate God to protect you. Any motive that isn't in line with the heart and will of God is evil, and you won't know the difference without relating to God.

So goodness is not objective reality, but whatever God says it is per His mood?

You misunderstand.
God is good (psalm 100:5, Psalm 119:68, Psalm 145:9, 1 Timothy 4:4, Psalm 34:8)
God is unchanging in his good nature (Malachi 3:6. James 1:17, Hebrews 13:8, Hebrews 6:17-18, Isaiah 40:8, Psalm 102:25-27, 2 Timothy 2:13, Psalm 119:89)

God is good by His nature, He has always been eternally good, always will be eternally good, and good will always be objectively defined by His nature.

Did he feed masses when not giving sermons?

John 21:25

It doesn't say. Of course it doesn't matter with regards to the point I was making anyway. Which was that Jesus did not do miracles for the purpose of trying to force the masses to believe him, but did so as part of ministering to the needs of people.

So Jesus berates people for asking for signs, and then does signs that hardly anyone sees ... why, again? Needs the practice? Who was helped by these instances of showing off? I thought Jesus declined Satan's temptation to show off?

You won't find an instance in the BIble of Jesus looking to "show off" with miracles. When he was walking on water he had a need to catch up with the disciples who were crossing the water without him. This encounter also serves to us as a powerful illustration about the nature of Jesus and the power of faith in Him.
The transfiguration was a meeting with God, Elijah, and Moses that his closest disciples were invited to witness. We now have it related to us in the Bible because they were there, and it no doubt gave them greater understanding of and faith in Jesus.
 
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