Does God "CHOOSE" not to know the future?

Hockeycowboy · Nov 20, 2015

muhammad_isa said:
If you are a Quaker you might believe that..

UK (and many other countries) joined the II world war, quite rightly I would say, with no conflict in their duty to Almighty God in warding off evil..

But, you forget: there were German Catholics, and German Protestants, fighting for their country. They thought they were warding off evil. It certainly was conflicting....Jesus said to 'love your enemy,' and 'be not of' the world.

Hockeycowboy · Nov 21, 2015

Carlita said:
Sorry.

/scratches her head/

Its right here:

7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

If God created good, evil comes with the package. Its not that he agrees with evil. Its just when you create a positive, there will always be a negative "with it."

So, God created evil And that is okay. Thats how you were saved, by product of sin. If there was only good coming from God, then there would be no evil. If God did not create evil, how would it exist? How could the devil be the devil if god didnt create the angel (with the tendency to do evil) to begin with?

You kinda nee evil to be saved. Id say, as it says in Psalms as well, God created it for a reason. I dont see how that could be a problem?

Carlita, the verse does not say that God 'created' evil; it uses the present tense, "I *create* evil". He said it in reference to Babylon, that He would cause their calamity through Cyrus the Great, and Jehovah did.

Do you have a child? If your child grows up and starts stealing things, he's a thief. Did you give birth to a thief? No, of course not! He became a thief, probably due to bad influences, or just bad thinking. The same with Satan the Devil.

'Satan' means 'opposer' (Devil means 'slanderer'); does it makes sense that God would make someone to oppose Him, to work against His purposes? Not at all. The angel who became Satan simply allowed himself to think on bad things. Free will in action (a bad example).

Take care.

muhammad_isa · Nov 21, 2015

Hockeycowboy said:
But, you forget: there were German Catholics, and German Protestants, fighting for their country. They thought they were warding off evil..

I haven't forgotten .. I think you'll find that these 'German Christains' were not fighting to ward off evil, but to support Hitler's nationlist govt. .. some by choice, some not.

You say that 'true Christians' should not defend themselves .. might as well throw away the majority of the Bible then .. Jesus, peace be with him, did not tell his followers to reject the existing scriptures .. he explained them!

Loving your enemies does not equate to letting them destroy your family or nation .. if you are able to do something, then you should .. and know that Almighty God does not like those people who begin hostilities

Unveiled Artist · Nov 21, 2015

Hockeycowboy said:
Carlita, the verse does not say that God 'created' evil; it uses the present tense, "I *create* evil". He said it in reference to Babylon, that He would cause their calamity through Cyrus the Great, and Jehovah did.

Do you have a child? If your child grows up and starts stealing things, he's a thief. Did you give birth to a thief? No, of course not! He became a thief, probably due to bad influences, or just bad thinking. The same with Satan the Devil.

'Satan' means 'opposer' (Devil means 'slanderer'); does it makes sense that God would make someone to oppose Him, to work against His purposes? Not at all. The angel who became Satan simply allowed himself to think on bad things. Free will in action (a bad example).

Take care.

What Im saying is, when one gives birth to a child, she not only gave birth to a child with the tendency to do good. She also created a child with the tendency to do bad. If it is true that God gave to christians to choose evil, it would seem tbat freedom to choose is the cause of evil. The mother didnt create a theif. She created a child with the "tendency" to be one. According to the Bible that "tendency" is a sin.

I would say if that is the cause, tendency would not only be good it would also be bad.

I also said created because I was refering to how a Christian is saved. If God did not create evil, how can evil exist? How can that tendency for bad exist if you are implying that the bad doez not come "with" the good.

In other words, when I create a child, part of that child is tendency to do things. I create that child and with that came a freedom "which is a part of him" to choose. I not only created the good in him, I also created the bad. Thats my child--both.

Is that wrong? No. Is that a problem? No. It just is.

My points.

When you have good it comes with bad. You cant create one without the other. Tendency, in christianity, is a bad thing. Christians have this tendency. If God did not create bad, we would not have a choice to do good to begin with.

In other words, when I create a child, part of that child is tendency to do things. I create that child and with that came a freedom "which is a part of him" to choose. I not only created the good in him, I also created the bad. Thats my child--both.

Evil is not something we do in Christianity. According to inherited sin belief, evil is something we are. If we used present tence "create", god continues to create good and with that good comes bad. He creates both.

Why is that a bad thing?

Creating evil doesnt mean the person who creates it Is evil. Doesnt mean god is not imperfect because he created good/bad (good/bad not good "and" bad). Its a good thing bad comes with good in christianity. If we attribute Christ "dying" to the devil then are we calling god not the creator of "everything"? Are we denying thd creator what he can do and not do..using our own definitions (people who wrote the bibke believe iin good "too" and are people) to define who he is?

If my child came up to me and said "ma, I keep stealing. Did you create this tendency cause its hard for me to stop".

"Id say yes. I created both. So that you also have the tendency to do good. How can you learn and I teach you if you are good all the time?"

james2ko · Nov 21, 2015

djhwoodwerks said:
Hello all! It's been awhile since I've posted on here but, as some of you know I have a JW friend that I visit with every week. The past couple of weeks we've been discussing how God can choose not to know the future. He (my friend) says that it is his belief that God didn't know Adam was going to sin, nor did He know that satan was going to tempt them. My friend explained that, "if God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow at 6:00, then I don't have free will because God knows I'm going to do it." I tried to explain that God knows the choice he (my friend) is going to make, but he didn't understand that. What are your beliefs/understandings/opinions on this? I believe God knows everything and does not choose not to know.

Been studying this topic lately and am beginning to change my views. The biblical evidence seems to indicate The Father knows our choices because He is responsible for making some of them in order to fulfill His sovereign plan:

Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be. (NIV)

Jer 10:23 You know, O LORD, that man is not master of his way; man's course is not within his choice, nor is it for him to direct his step. (NAB)

Psa 37:23 The steps of a man are established by the LORD, and He delights in his way. (NASU)

Pro 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, how then can man understand his way? (NASU)

The Son, on the other hand, does not have The Father's omniscience:

Joh 14:28 You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

Gen 22:12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." [It was an angel or messenger (elohim) of YHVH, speaking in the first person as an agent for the Father, who "did not know" the choice Abraham would make, whom the evidence indicates is Christ pre-incarnate].

Mar 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Luk 8:45-46 And Jesus said, "Who touched Me?" When all denied it, Peter and those with him said, "Master, the multitudes throng and press You, and You say, 'Who touched Me?' " 46 But Jesus said, "Somebody touched Me, for I perceived power going out from Me." [Christ did not know who touched Him].

Implicating the Son does not always know our choices or the future.

Robert.Evans · Nov 21, 2015

Hockeycowboy said:
Carlita, the verse does not say that God 'created' evil; it uses the present tense, "I *create* evil". He said it in reference to Babylon, that He would cause their calamity through Cyrus the Great, and Jehovah did.

Do you have a child? If your child grows up and starts stealing things, he's a thief. Did you give birth to a thief? No, of course not! He became a thief, probably due to bad influences, or just bad thinking. The same with Satan the Devil.

'Satan' means 'opposer' (Devil means 'slanderer'); does it makes sense that God would make someone to oppose Him, to work against His purposes? Not at all. The angel who became Satan simply allowed himself to think on bad things. Free will in action (a bad example).

Take care.

So what then is different between the adversary and everything else? Why did not all things go bad? And where does that evil side come from in the first place?

And the text still says he creates evil, however you word it.

Robert.Evans · Nov 21, 2015

Carlita said:
What Im saying is, when one gives birth to a child, she not only gave birth to a child with the tendency to do good. She also created a child with the tendency to do bad. If it is true that God gave to christians to choose evil, it would seem tbat freedom to choose is the cause of evil. The mother didnt create a theif. She created a child with the "tendency" to be one. According to the Bible that "tendency" is a sin.

But if the child is the progeny of the parents, does that not mean they did? Is it not part of them?

Click to expand...

I would say if that is the cause, tendency would not only be good it would also be bad.

I also said created because I was refering to how a Christian is saved. If God did not create evil, how can evil exist?

Very good point.

How can that tendency for bad exist if you are implying that the bad doez not come "with" the good.

In other words, when I create a child, part of that child is tendency to do things. I create that child and with that came a freedom "which is a part of him" to choose. I not only created the good in him, I also created the bad. Thats my child--both.

Is that wrong? No. Is that a problem? No. It just is.

My points.

When you have good it comes with bad. You cant create one without the other.

Yes, agreed

Tendency, in christianity, is a bad thing. Christians have this tendency. If God did not create bad, we would not have a choice to do good to begin with.

In other words, when I create a child, part of that child is tendency to do things. I create that child and with that came a freedom "which is a part of him" to choose. I not only created the good in him, I also created the bad. Thats my child--both.

Evil is not something we do in Christianity. According to inherited sin belief, evil is something we are. If we used present tense "create", god continues to create good and with that good comes bad. He creates both.

Why is that a bad thing?

Creating evil doesnt mean the person who creates it Is evil. Doesnt mean god is not imperfect because he created good/bad (good/bad not good "and" bad). Its a good thing bad comes with good in christianity. If we attribute Christ "dying" to the devil then are we calling god not the creator of "everything"? Are we denying thd creator what he can do and not do..using our own definitions (people who wrote the bibke believe iin good "too" and are people) to define who he is?

If my child came up to me and said "ma, I keep stealing. Did you create this tendency cause its hard for me to stop".

"Id say yes. I created both. So that you also have the tendency to do good. How can you learn and I teach you if you are good all the time?"

You make some good points. What if evil comes form flawed ideas as they evolve within the divine consciousness.

Robert.Evans · Nov 21, 2015

james2ko said:
Been studying this topic lately and am beginning to change my views. The biblical evidence seems to indicate The Father knows our choices because He is responsible for making some of them in order to fulfill His sovereign plan:

Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be. (NIV)

Jer 10:23 You know, O LORD, that man is not master of his way; man's course is not within his choice, nor is it for him to direct his step. (NAB)

Psa 37:23 The steps of a man are established by the LORD, and He delights in his way. (NASU)

Pro 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, how then can man understand his way? (NASU)

The Son, on the other hand, does not have The Father's omniscience:

Joh 14:28 You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

Gen 22:12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." [It was the Angel or Messenger of the Lord, speaking in the first person as an agent for the Father, who "did not know" the choice Abraham would make, whom the evidence indicates is Christ pre-incarnate].

Mar 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Luk 8:45-46 And Jesus said, "Who touched Me?" When all denied it, Peter and those with him said, "Master, the multitudes throng and press You, and You say, 'Who touched Me?' " 46 But Jesus said, "Somebody touched Me, for I perceived power going out from Me." [Christ did not know who touched Him].

Implicating the Son does not always know our choices or the future.

So who then is in the garden in Genesis when he says "Where are you?" Is that Jesus? If so, then Jesus is Yhvh. And if that is so, who are you speaking of when you speak of God?

Robert.Evans · Nov 21, 2015

Skwim said:
Sorry, I forgot that you don't believe god is omniscient. Think he is omnipotent?

If God does not know all things, how can he be sure his son would die at the right time, day, year and in the right way?

Robert.Evans · Nov 21, 2015

Hockeycowboy said:
Hold on, now! I believe that God is omniscient; I just don't believe He knows the future, or predestines people's lives.

What He can do -- in fact, what we do, to some extent -- is see how the future will pan out. For example: if we know of a person who texts while driving, we might say "that person's going to cause an accident." If they do, did we foretell the future? Not rreeaally. We just know, from experience and past events, what can happen. We know that certain actions can lead to certain events. It's actually called wisdom. We can have some wisdom; God has it all. He knows that certain actions will lead to certain events!

God is aware of what will happen then because he knows how events will react one with another- agreed.

As for omnipotence, He's the source of all energy -- he created all matter (Rev. 4:11) I don't engage in philosophical debates beyond that statement.

Good point

Although, I will say this: according to the Bible, the Devil is controlling this world and its attitudes and governments right now. And has been for 6,000 years, since God's way of ruling was questioned in the Garden of Eden.

as in mankind has only been round that long? no. You have to trust science with that as you do with other things (I assume you're not sending this via pigeon) and if that is the case, you have to consider why you don't understand what is written, rather than ignore science.

It's been necessary for God to 'step away' from mankind's affairs. (Read Genesis 3. Meditate on it; maybe you will discern the issues raised. But you got to think deeply on it.)

So-long

I think, to use your words, he has "step[ped] away" from our affairs. If the adversary is running everything now, and he is evil, which then do we still see good?

Robert.Evans · Nov 21, 2015

Skwim said:
So knowing everything doesn't include knowing the future. Well, everyone is free to use a word any way they wish, however, when such usage doesn't coincide with its common meaning it raises suspicions as to why the person is deviating from the common meaning. My guess here is that you dearly love the appellation of omniscience to your god, and aren't about to give it up, but at the same time find its meaning so troublesome that you need to change it to your own.
Hockeycowboy's definition of "omniscience": Knowing everything about the past and the present. (my guess here). Trouble is, it's really ludicrous when compared to its true meaning.

1020 God, all-knowing
The omniscience of God is that attribute by which he knows all things past, present and future.
source

Omniscience of God – God Knows All Things
The omniscience of God is the principle that God is all-knowing; that He encompasses all knowledge of the universe past, present, and future.
source

God is Omniscient
Definition:
The attribute of God by which God perfectly and eternally knows all things which can be known, past, present, and future.
source

The Omniscience of God
"God knows every future action. The fact that God gave prophets the capability to predict accurately very specific events in the distant future is one of the great evidences for the inspiration of the Bible (Thompson, 1999, p. 19). God has emphasized repeatedly that He knows the future, perhaps never more emphatically than when Jesus Himself prophesied (see Matthew 24:1-51; Mark 8:31; John 2:19-22). The fact that God knows the future does not imply that humans somehow lose freedom of choice. Just because God knows that something will happen, does not mean that He causes it (see Bales, 1974, p. 49). God cannot be taught anything about the future (Acts 17:31; John 14:3)."
source

Is God omniscient? What does it mean to be omniscient?
To say God is omniscient is to say that God knows all things or has all knowledge. As Creator of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1), there is nothing made that He has not known (John 1:3).

God's omniscience includes knowledge of the future. He knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). In fact, predictive knowledge is unique to God; detailed, accurate prophecy is His specialty. Our Lord issues this challenge to false gods: "declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods" (Isaiah 41:22-23 NIV). Any god worth its salt must know the future,
source

The word omniscience is not, strictly speaking, a biblical term. The word itself is not found in the Bible. It is a philosophical/theological word that has come into wide usage because, like the word trinity, it correctly describes the biblical evidence. The word means to see or know all things. For God, if this doctrine is true, everything is eternally “present.” I have recently been going through a box of old newspaper clippings from earlier years. To my astonishment, I had forgotten, not only many things that happened to me, but many of the people involved. Time dims our remembrance of much that has happened. God is not like that. He always knows what is past, present, and future, if he is omniscient.
source

So believe whatever you want about god's abilities, but if I was an upright Christian I wouldn't try pawning off your notion of "omniscience" without immediate explanation.

What about separation within the consciousness?

Robert.Evans · Nov 21, 2015

Hockeycowboy said:
Ultimately, then, promoting the idea that God knows the future, would lead a person, who meditates on the subject, to believe that He is the source of all the evil in the world, which contradicts Biblical teaching. -- Deuteronomy 32:4-6; James 1:13-15; Jeremiah 7:31; etc., etc., etc., not to mention contrary to the Jonah account.

I could care less about sources; these same sources probably teach the Trinity, and Hellfire, doctrines the Bible does not teach. And they're OK with supporting their respective country in war and killing others, even their brothers. They don't have God's Truth. Their actions deny Him!

There are verses which say he does things which we as humans would consider evil

Robert.Evans · Nov 21, 2015

Hockeycowboy said:
One big difference, tho, is that the Bible never supports Christians killing anyone, only to love others, even their enemy.

So who then is the God of the old testament? Is he the same one or not?

Robert.Evans · Nov 21, 2015

Hockeycowboy said:
What's the context? Who was God talking to, and about whom? God, through Isaiah, was talking to Cyrus the Great, about Babylon. Babylon did meet with calamity, and the Israelites, two years later, experienced peace, being returned to their homeland.

Did God "create evil" for others? Will he? Yes! Whenever other groups -- or even individuals -- have attacked His people, God fights for them! You'd "create evil", too, to protect your loved ones! In fact, God has actually used others, like the court system, authorities, etc. -- "the Earth" -- to protect His people and accomplish His will. (Revelation 12:15-17)

[The symbolism used in the Scriptures is awesome! You could learn it, also, if you would be humble enough. - Luke 10:21]

What about toothache? Is that evil?

Robert.Evans · Nov 21, 2015

Skwim said:
Is this sad apologetic really supposed to give lie to god's statement: "I create evil"?

But never mind. Your battle with the truth of your scriptures is too difficult to watch.

Have a good day

I agree. Yhvh created evil. Where else would it come from. The question is, how and why?

Robert.Evans · Nov 21, 2015

metis said:
When "good" is created, "evil" is a by-product of that same creation. One cannot exist without the other.

Though I agree in part, How is it a bi-product?

Robert.Evans · Nov 21, 2015

Mestemia said:
Ah, so God is not all powerful then...

Which one?

McBell · Nov 21, 2015

Oeste said:
You did not give a basis for your assertion, nor can I think of anything in my comment or scripture which would lead the reader to this conclusion.

If god cannot choose to not know....

McBell · Nov 21, 2015

Robert.Evans said:
Which one?

Which ever one he is talking about.
Pay attention.

james2ko · Nov 21, 2015

Robert.Evans said:
So who then is in the garden in Genesis when he says "Where are you?" Is that Jesus?

I believe it is.

If so, then Jesus is Yhvh. And if that is so, who are you speaking of when you speak of God?

Contrary to popular belief, I believe the evidence points to the notion YHVH is not only the Father's name, but a distributed family title shared by the entire YHVH/God family, which would include the Son. It is semantically similar to a surname in our modern society. An analogy would be my son and I (his father) are both named Mr. Smith (fictitious name). Therefore, we are both referred to as "Smith". I am [Mr.] Smith--the father. My son is [Mr.] Smith--the son.

Similarly, YHVH/God the Father is identified in scripture as [Mr.] YHVH. His son (s)--including Christ and the angels--are known as "elohim" and at times identified as [Mr.] YHVH. As they are all part of the YHVH family.

Does God "CHOOSE" not to know the future?

Witness for Jehovah

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You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.

Resident Sourpuss

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