Islam in Western civilization

Crypto2015 · Nov 19, 2015

ak.yonathan said:
Like what? Just what exactly is it that Islam teaches that you think is so bad? And don't say that Islam promotes violence or other nonsense like that. But if you think that it really does....

Let's start with this:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: I heard Allah's Apostle [Muhammad]saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' "

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6981:
Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger [Muhammad](may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.

Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6983:
Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.

Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6984:
Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Jews will fight against you and you will gain victory over them until the stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.

Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6985:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

Crypto2015 · Nov 19, 2015

Lyndon said:
The early Christian church was nothing like the KKK or the Nazis, that's for sure.

Are you for real? Did the apostles had ridiculous mustaches and called for the destruction of the Jews or the Black people? LOL. In fact, the apostles were all Jews and the first non-Jewish Christian was a black African. 11 of the 12 apostles suffered violent deaths at the hands of the Romans. None of the apostles was ever violent.

9-10ths_Penguin · Nov 19, 2015

Lyndon said:
And KKK and a lot of Nazis were/are "real" Christians.

That's right. They're part of the spectrum.

And a lot of Stalin's henchmen, sending millions to their death were "real" atheists.

That's right, too. The category "atheist" covers a very broad spectrum because it applies to anyone who doesn't believe in any gods.

The labels I care about more (e.g. humanist, freethinker) don't apply to Stalin and his followers, but sure: I have no doubt that most - or all - of them were atheists.

9-10ths_Penguin · Nov 19, 2015

Lyndon said:
The early Christian church was nothing like the KKK or the Nazis, that's for sure.

Of course. The early Christian church was nothing like ANY modern Christian group.

Crypto2015 · Nov 19, 2015

9-10ths_Penguin said:
That's right. They're part of the spectrum.

That's right, too. The category "atheist" covers a very broad spectrum because it applies to anyone who doesn't believe in any gods.

The labels I care about more (e.g. humanist, freethinker) don't apply to Stalin and his followers, but sure: I have no doubt that most - or all - of them were atheists.

The Nazis and the KKK were not really Christian. Any sane person can see that by simply reading the New Testament. How the hell can you be a Nazi and at the same time worship a Jew?

9-10ths_Penguin · Nov 19, 2015

Crypto2015 said:
The Nazis and the KKK were not really Christian. Any sane person can see that by simply reading the New Testament. How the hell can you be a Nazi and at the same time worship a Jew?

Are you trying to argue that Christians can't be hypocrites?

What do you think qualifies a person to be labelled "Christian"?

Edit: what do you think qualifies a person to be labelled "Muslim"?

MARCELLO · Nov 19, 2015

Crypto2015 said:
The Nazis and the KKK were not really Christian. Any sane person can see that by simply reading the New Testament. How the hell can you be a Nazi and at the same time worship a Jew?

I don't know for the Nazis but for sure KKK were really christian.

Crypto2015 · Nov 19, 2015

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Are you trying to argue that Christians can't be hypocrites?

What do you think qualifies a person to be labelled "Christian"?

Edit: what do you think qualifies a person to be labelled "Muslim"?

A hypocrite is someone who pretends to be what he is not. So, yes, a hypocritical Christian is not a real Christian. A Muslim is someone who believes in the message of Islam and live his/her life in accordance with the teachings of Islam.

Crypto2015 · Nov 19, 2015

MARCELLO said:
I don't know for the Nazis but for sure KKK were really christian.

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love" (1 John 4:8)

Lyndon · Nov 19, 2015

Well then a hypocritical Muslim is not a real Muslim, that's the whole point; ISIS do not represent real Muslims. just as KKK do not represent real Christians.

Crypto2015 · Nov 19, 2015

Lyndon said:
Well then a hypocritical Muslim is not a real Muslim, that's the whole point; ISIS do not represent real Muslims. just as KKK do not represent real Christians.

A few posts ago you were telling us that the KKK was a Christian organization. Regarding ISIS, their actions are mostly (or entirely) in line with the teachings of Islam. I can prove it to you.

MARCELLO · Nov 19, 2015

Crypto2015 said:
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love" (1 John 4:8)

Keeping seperate from blacks is nothing about religion. I am a christian,too.

Lyndon · Nov 19, 2015

Crypto2015 said:
A few posts ago you were telling us that the KKK was a Christian organization. Regarding ISIS, their actions are mostly (or entirely) in line with the teachings of Islam. I can prove it to you.

I was being sarcastic. And no, surfing anti Muslim websites does not make you an expert on Islam.

Crypto2015 · Nov 19, 2015

MARCELLO said:
Keeping seperate from blacks is nothing about religion. I am a christian,too.

The first non-Jewish Christian was black (Acts 8:26-40), African missionaries from Cyrene (a town in Libya) were among the first to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 11:20), the man who helped Christ to carry the cross (Matthew 27:32), Simon of Cyrene, was also a Libyan. Black people were also among the leaders of the early church. For instance see:

"Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul." (Acts 13:1)

"Niger" simple meant "black man". To summarize, Black people became Christians much earlier than any European. Furthermore, the Bible teaches us not to discriminate:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

So, only someone with no knowledge of the Bible would behave as a KKK. And if someone has no knowledge of the Bible, how can he be a Christian? If the members of the KKK were misled Christians, they were certainly acting in direct OPPOSITION to the teachings of Christianity.

Crypto2015 · Nov 19, 2015

Lyndon said:
I was being sarcastic. And no, surfing anti Muslim websites does not make you an expert on Islam.

I an rely on renowned Muslim scholars such as Al-Tabari or Maududi. For instance:

"Islam wishes to destroy all states and governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam, regardless of the country or the nation which rules it. The purpose of Islam is to set up a state on the basis of its own ideology and programme, regardless of which nation assumes the role of the standard-bearer of Islam or the rule of which nation is undermined in the process of the establishment of an ideological Islamic State. Islam requires the earth—not just a portion, but the whole planet .... because the entire mankind should benefit from the ideology and welfare programme [of Islam] ... Towards this end, Islam wishes to press into service all forces which can bring about a revolution and a composite term for the use of all these forces is ‘Jihad’. .... the objective of the Islamic ‘ jihād’ is to eliminate the rule of an un-Islamic system and establish in its stead an Islamic system of state rule."

Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, Jihad in Islam, p.6,7,22

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_A'la_Maududi#Non-Muslims

MARCELLO · Nov 19, 2015

Crypto2015 said:
The first non-Jewish Christian was black (Acts 8:26-40), African missionaries from Cyrene (a town in Libya) were among the first to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 11:20), the man who helped Christ to carry the cross (Matthew 27:32), Simon of Cyrene, was also a Libyan. Black people were also among the leaders of the early church. For instance see:

"Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul." (Acts 13:1)

"Niger" simple meant "black man". To summarize, Black people became Christians much earlier than any European. Furthermore, the Bible teaches us not to discriminate:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

So, only someone with no knowledge of the Bible would behave as a KKK. And if someone has no knowledge of the Bible, how can he be a Christian? If the members of the KKK were misled Christians, they were certainly acting in direct OPPOSITION to the teachings of Christianity.

I know that. The ethiopians were one of the earliest christians. By the way, do you know that christian ethipoians cover their head too? Like orthodox old greek ladies?

Crypto2015 · Nov 19, 2015

MARCELLO said:
I know that. The ethiopians were one of the earliest christians. By the way, do you know that christian ethipoians cover their head too? Like orthodox old greek ladies?

No, I didn't, but If I were under the African sun, I would also cover my head.

Lyndon · Nov 19, 2015

Crypto2015 said:
The first non-Jewish Christian was black (Acts 8:26-40), African missionaries from Cyrene (a town in Libya) were among the first to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 11:20), the man who helped Christ to carry the cross (Matthew 27:32), Simon of Cyrene, was also a Libyan. Black people were also among the leaders of the early church. For instance see:

"Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul." (Acts 13:1)

"Niger" simple meant "black man". To summarize, Black people became Christians much earlier than any European. Furthermore, the Bible teaches us not to discriminate:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

So, only someone with no knowledge of the Bible would behave as a KKK. And if someone has no knowledge of the Bible, how can he be a Christian? If the members of the KKK were misled Christians, they were certainly acting in direct OPPOSITION to the teachings of Christianity.

That was the whole point, ISIS is also operating in complete contradiction to the basic teachings of Islam, for instance Islam teaches that any Muslim who kills another innocent Muslim goes straight to hell, how is ISIS following that teaching.

9-10ths_Penguin · Nov 19, 2015

Crypto2015 said:
A hypocrite is someone who pretends to be what he is not. So, yes, a hypocritical Christian is not a real Christian.

He's still a Christian. He might not be a good person, but he's still a Christian. The fact that you think that Christians ought to behave a certain way doesn't disqualify those Christians who don't behave this way.

He would only be "pretending to be what what he is not" if he was lying when he says he's a Christian. Someone who sincerely believes that they follow Christ is a Christian, even if they follow Christ "badly", or do it in a way you don't think they should.

Do you think that the average KKK member who says he's Christian is lying?

Crypto2015 said:
A Muslim is someone who believes in the message of Islam and live his/her life in accordance with the teachings of Islam.

What can "the teachings of Islam" mean except "the beliefs that Muslims profess"?

Does this work for you as a definition?

A Muslim is someone who sincerely believes that the Shahadah is correct.

MARCELLO · Nov 19, 2015

Crypto2015 said:
No, I didn't, but If I were under the African sun, I would also cover my head.

There is no even A/C needed in Ethiopia. All the year 20 Celsius something. It has nothing to do with climate. And the christians are getting along with muslims perfectly there. Nobody bombs nobody there.

Islam in Western civilization

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