The Law

KBC1963 said:

Well I think I have to disagree with you on this one. Your wording places God in a bad light by implying that he set us up without a choice but to fail, which would mean we didn't have free will. When man the creature was formed from the dust of the ground he had no life, This is the carnal man who like all other natural creatures has instinct as part of it nature and none of the creatures are actually subjectible to God's laws because they don't have the intelligence to make those types of decisions, they operate on instinct. After man was formed God then breathed life into him or in effect gave a carnal creature a part of himself to rule the creature. Note that our bodies are not and never were our own;
1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own...
But, we do typically have the power to overrule the carnal side. If you did not have the carnal instinct of your body to influence you then of course it would be a lot easier to resist that which is considered sinful but, the carnal side was never meant to have the power to rule an intelligent mind. I base this rationale on these verses;
1 Corinthians 10:11Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
You see all of mankind has was able to and indeed did make a free choice to submit to what they were tempted by, look carefully at these verses;
Romans 6:12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

You see, people are being instructed to make a free will choice because the carnal creature is still there trying to influence their minds with its common temptations and the instructions being given here are that you are not to yield to it and not to let it reign in your carnal body. There would be no need for such instruction if indeed you were no longer being tempted after accepting Christ. I will also point out here that you could not sin either if there was no laws to transgress. So, in fact there are laws that still exist and there are still temptations from within, the difference now is that there is a new covenant / system in place that you can have faith in that will allow you to have hope for a continued existence even though you had been full of sin.....

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So, if you are not walking in the spirit / following the direction of the holy spirit with the intent to do God's will then the only thing you could be doing is giving in to the lusts of the flesh and sinning and I know this because it is written;

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Notice what is written about satan..... he was sinning from the beginning long before the law was ever given to the Jews and yet how could he possibly sin if there were no laws to transgress?
Now if someone believes they are saved and is still committing sins such as those sins named above then my question is "do you feel they are in fact saved"?



It was not our flesh that sinned.... it was our spirit that was temped by our flesh to sin and we yielded to it. My understanding is that God has provided us with examples of what sin is and he has promised to give us a helper (the holy spirit) to guide our choices if our full intent is to be like him and in this way we can resist the tempter and grow to be even as Christ is.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

God is not turning us away from sin, the holy spirit (helper) is simply there to advise us of what God wants and it comes down to our free choice to obey or not.

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Shalom KBC, thank you again for your response. For my response, I must say you should try to look at the BIG picture of what Elohim is trying to accomplish. How could anyone choose BETWEEN good and evil unless they FIRST acquired a Knowledge of those two opposing ways of existing? For mankind to be given the opportunity to CHOOSE, and have a FREE WILL, both good and evil must be experienced, and this is WHY Elohim created us carnal, so that we FIRST could KNOW and UNDERSTAND all about evil (darkness). This was accomplished by giving Adam (a carnal man) a command, and PRESTO, sin entered. Adam and Eve had no choice but to sin, that was all they were given. Don't you think it strange that both the man and woman were "naked," (H-6174) and felt no shame (Genesis 2:25)? And in the very next verse, the Serpent is said to be the most "naked" (H-6175) of all the beasts of the field (Genesis 3:1). Those two Hebrew words have the same meaning. Do you know why that is? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

P.S. And don't you think it strange that ONCE Adam and Eve's eyes were open (Genesis 3:7), they realized they were NAKED?

Ken Brown said:

Shalom KBC, thank you again for your response. For my response, I must say you should try to look at the BIG picture of what Elohim is trying to accomplish. How could anyone choose BETWEEN good and evil unless they FIRST acquired a Knowledge of those two opposing ways of existing?

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I am quite sure that God could predict a possible future. He knew we would be babes when it came to understanding reality and that the potential to make a bad choice is always within the realm of possibility when the freedom to choose is within any intelligent beings power.

Ken Brown said:

For mankind to be given the opportunity to CHOOSE, and have a FREE WILL, both good and evil must be experienced, and this is WHY Elohim created us carnal, so that we FIRST could KNOW and UNDERSTAND all about evil (darkness). This was accomplished by giving Adam (a carnal man) a command, and PRESTO, sin entered. Adam and Eve had no choice but to sin, that was all they were given.

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Your rationale would be solid on this point except for one little detail.... You don't need to be carnal to sin or experience evil;
Isaiah 1410All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Ezekiel 28:14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

1 John 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

Revelation 12:7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Many intelligent beings were formed before a carnal man was tempted and they all had the same freedom of choice that we had and in fact many made the right choice from the beginning and did not sin and yet they still learned about sin and evil without ever submitting to it themselves while according to scripture a third of the angels along with satan failed to choose correctly and they learned about sin and evil by doing it. Sin did not begin with us nor is it limited to the physical carnal part of our existence. Righteousness and sin both began right at God's doorstep which is how God could proclaim;
Genesis 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

Ken Brown said:

Don't you think it strange that both the man and woman were "naked," (H-6174) and felt no shame (Genesis 2:25)? And in the very next verse, the Serpent is said to be the most "naked" (H-6175) of all the beasts of the field (Genesis 3:1). Those two Hebrew words have the same meaning. Do you know why that is? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
P.S. And don't you think it strange that ONCE Adam and Eve's eyes were open (Genesis 3:7), they realized they were NAKED?

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Well it would be strange to suddenly realize you were naked had you not understood what nakedness was and all of a sudden you were given understanding of what it meant.... however, I don't believe you are really getting what happened at their fall. You are reading the verses and thinking that they were naked and suddenly got input from somewhere that there was something wrong with not having a covering over your skin So.... let me ask a few questions of you...
what is wrong with being naked? does it transgress any of God's laws?
We both know that God was happy with them in the state they were created in... "naked".... God had reviewed his creation and called it good so, being naked as God had made them could not have been "revealed" to them later as a bad thing, to do so would be accusing God of having created a physical form that was sinful to his face.

There are clues within scripture that can explain what Adam and Eve had experienced and why they acted as they did. Here are some of the clues;
1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light...
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above.
Exodus 34:29 Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai, that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone ...

You see Adam and Eve were both pure to begin with, they both could be in the presence of God and they both were covered by his light / glory. When they sinned the glory of God departed from them and then they could see that they had lost their outer covering that had been with them since their creation. They felt naked without it and tried by their own means to replace it.
There is more significance to why God made Genesis 3:21... coats of skins, and clothed them. than most people realize.... from God's view they had stopped being the beings of light he created and they desperately needed temporary covering until they could be re-clothed with the natural covering that God had imbued them with from the beginning.
If we make it through to be with God then we will have all the covering we need without any need for man made ones. We will return to the natural state we were created as.

Of course there is another clue to consider;
Mark 12:18Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying, 19Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 20Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. 21And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. 22And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife. 24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Shalom KBC, as usual, thank you very much for the reply. You have raised several points that I would like to address. You state:

KBC1963 said:

Your rationale would be solid on this point except for one little detail.... You don't need to be carnal to sin or experience evil;

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True, Satan rebelled against Elohim and helped others to transgress, and they were not carnal, and this is the reason WHY Elohim, in defeating Satan, created us to be against Him (carnal) so that we would not follow in Satan's footsteps. Peter tells us that once someone suffers in the flesh (being carnal and suffering because of sin), that experience makes sin to end for them (1 Peter 4:1-2), that is, when they come to a knowledge of the Truth concerning what sin did to Yeshua. Now, you ask these questions:

KBC1963 said:

what is wrong with being naked? does it transgress any of God's laws?

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There was no command for Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness, but nakedness is a symbol, a symbol for being sinful, and they at that time of having no knowledge of good and evil, felt no shame (Genesis 2:25). Adam and Eve were like little innocent babies, not knowing good and evil, and when the command was given to them, they sinned, and their true "sinful" nature surfaced, and they REALIZED or SAW they were sinners/naked, and THEN they felt shame and tried to cover themselves (Genesis 3:7).

Yeshua tells us about nakedness (Revelation 3:18), that it needs to be covered with "white raiment" and that "white raiment" which covers our sin/nakedness is RIGHTEOUSNESS (Revelation 19:8). So you have to ask yourself a question. If Adam and Eve would have been able to choose the good (before they had a knowledge of good and evil), and had not sinned, would that have followed Elohim's plan? No, absolutely not. Elohim subjected the creation to moral depravity (G-3153), not willingly, but by reason of Him who had subjected it. He did this with the hope that the creation as a whole would follow in the footsteps of the Messiah and His Firstfruits, in being delivered from the bondage to sin/corruption, and to come into the glorious freedom FROM sin (Romans 8:19-21). Elohim is creating or making us INTO sinless children, and to do this, He FIRST had to allow us to develop in the womb of carnality (this sinful world/flesh), and this is WHY the FIRST Adam had to be carnal (a sinner), and the Second Adam, the Righteous One from Heaven (see 1 Corinthians 15:42-50). You need to ask yourself another question. Why is it that the Second Adam wasn't the FIRST (1 Corinthians 15:46). Why was the carnal, weak, dishonorable, and corrupt Adam FIRST, instead of the Spiritual, powerful, honorable, and incorruptible Man from Heaven FIRST? These questions should show you that Elohim's Plan was for mankind to be consigned or sold under sin by being created carnal/flesh (Romans 11:32, Romans 7:14), and at the right time, send Yeshua to REDEEM us out from that slavery to sin, by turning us from our iniquities (Acts of the Apostles 3:26). Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Ken Brown said:

Shalom KBC, as usual, thank you very much for the reply. You have raised several points that I would like to address.
True, Satan rebelled against Elohim and helped others to transgress, and they were not carnal, and this is the reason WHY Elohim, in defeating Satan, created us to be against Him (carnal) so that we would not follow in Satan's footsteps.

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How does being carnal cause us to be against satan and what exactly does it mean to be carnal?
CARNAL
1a : relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites
b : marked by sexuality <carnal love>
Do you know that the angels desired to have sexual pleasures with mankind and that their sexual union produced children? wouldn't this make angels carnal as well?
I think it should also be pointed out that a vast majority of mankind will not make the grade to enter the kingdom of heaven and when you think about it we are told that only a third of the angels rebelled which means that 2/3 of them didn't so it would seem that the angels did a waaaay better job at resisting satan than we ever did so which type of being fared better at resisting him? Your rationale does not follow with the scriptural evidences.

Ken Brown said:

Peter tells us that once someone suffers in the flesh (being carnal and suffering because of sin), that experience makes sin to end for them (1 Peter 4:1-2), that is, when they come to a knowledge of the Truth concerning what sin did to Yeshua.

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I'm not seeing your reference meaning what your asserting that it does. Let's look at this carefully;
1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Your interpretation of these verses is incorrect. My reasoning is provided by parallel verses that have the same meaning but different wordings;

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The parallel references have the same intended meaning. The fact that one is worded a bit differently is what is allowing you to think that it is talking about mankind in general when in fact it is talking about Christ throughout both verses. Christ suffered in his flesh when he was crucified and died to sin and he absolutely no longer lives the rest of his time in the flesh. He lives in heaven with his father and we are being told to symbolically live in that manner.

Ken Brown said:

Now, you ask these questions:
There was no command for Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness, but nakedness is a symbol, a symbol for being sinful, and they at that time of having no knowledge of good and evil, felt no shame (Genesis 2:25). Adam and Eve were like little innocent babies, not knowing good and evil, and when the command was given to them, they sinned, and their true "sinful" nature surfaced, and they REALIZED or SAW they were sinners/naked, and THEN they felt shame and tried to cover themselves (Genesis 3:7).

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That is essentially what you stated before. However, you have not stated why you feel that my reply to your initial assertion is not valid. I provided a number of scriptures to back my reply so the rationale is not without backing. Your concept that they just realized they were naked doesn't have any traction. God created them naked there can be no shame in being naked if your maker formed you that way so the only logic here is that they were not originally observably naked as we consider nakedness now until after they sinned and their covering of light departed from them. I can find a multitude of references about Godly beings that have coverings of light. logically if God created man in his image and after his likeness and God is a being of light then why wouldn't his creation which was formed to be his image and likeness not also have this same covering of light? even his previous creations were beings with a covering of light.

Psalm 104:1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. 2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment
Matthew17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Ken Brown said:

You need to ask yourself another question. Why is it that the Second Adam wasn't the FIRST (1 Corinthians 15:46). Why was the carnal, weak, dishonorable, and corrupt Adam FIRST, instead of the Spiritual, powerful, honorable, and incorruptible Man from Heaven FIRST? These questions should show you that Elohim's Plan was for mankind to be consigned or sold under sin by being created carnal/flesh (Romans 11:32, Romans 7:14), and at the right time, send Yeshua to REDEEM us out from that slavery to sin, by turning us from our iniquities (Acts of the Apostles 3:26). Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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The second Adam was only a necessity to counter the free will decision of the first Adam. You can't be rescued until your in trouble.
The first Adam was not created weak, dishonorable or corrupt. God's entire creation was good from the beginning. For each of God's creations they possess the ability to make free will choices and only when they make the wrong choice does it require that a God of love to provide a way to overcome that error. Just like any of us other intelligent beings we plan ahead, we make contingency plans where there is a possibility that our main plan may get interrupted.
We put in fire escapes as an alternative plan to give those we love a way to continue to exist and if we who were created in God's image and likeness do such things then why couldn't God do the same? God does not form that which is good to become bad. God of necessity forms plans to overcome the errors inherent when free will is given just as we do with our own children.

KBC1963 said:

How does being carnal cause us to be against satan and what exactly does it mean to be carnal?
CARNAL
1a : relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites
b : marked by sexuality <carnal love>
Do you know that the angels desired to have sexual pleasures with mankind and that their sexual union produced children? wouldn't this make angels carnal as well?
I think it should also be pointed out that a vast majority of mankind will not make the grade to enter the kingdom of heaven and when you think about it we are told that only a third of the angels rebelled which means that 2/3 of them didn't so it would seem that the angels did a waaaay better job at resisting satan than we ever did so which type of being fared better at resisting him? Your rationale does not follow with the scriptural evidences.


I'm not seeing your reference meaning what your asserting that it does. Let's look at this carefully;
1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Your interpretation of these verses is incorrect. My reasoning is provided by parallel verses that have the same meaning but different wordings;

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The parallel references have the same intended meaning. The fact that one is worded a bit differently is what is allowing you to think that it is talking about mankind in general when in fact it is talking about Christ throughout both verses. Christ suffered in his flesh when he was crucified and died to sin and he absolutely no longer lives the rest of his time in the flesh. He lives in heaven with his father and we are being told to symbolically live in that manner.



That is essentially what you stated before. However, you have not stated why you feel that my reply to your initial assertion is not valid. I provided a number of scriptures to back my reply so the rationale is not without backing. Your concept that they just realized they were naked doesn't have any traction. God created them naked there can be no shame in being naked if your maker formed you that way so the only logic here is that they were not originally observably naked as we consider nakedness now until after they sinned and their covering of light departed from them. I can find a multitude of references about Godly beings that have coverings of light. logically if God created man in his image and after his likeness and God is a being of light then why wouldn't his creation which was formed to be his image and likeness not also have this same covering of light? even his previous creations were beings with a covering of light.

Psalm 104:1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. 2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment
Matthew17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.



The second Adam was only a necessity to counter the free will decision of the first Adam. You can't be rescued until your in trouble.
The first Adam was not created weak, dishonorable or corrupt. God's entire creation was good from the beginning. For each of God's creations they possess the ability to make free will choices and only when they make the wrong choice does it require that a God of love to provide a way to overcome that error. Just like any of us other intelligent beings we plan ahead, we make contingency plans where there is a possibility that our main plan may get interrupted.
We put in fire escapes as an alternative plan to give those we love a way to continue to exist and if we who were created in God's image and likeness do such things then why couldn't God do the same? God does not form that which is good to become bad. God of necessity forms plans to overcome the errors inherent when free will is given just as we do with our own children.

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Shalom KBC, again, thank you for taking the time and effort to give me a response. Most, like you, view Adam and Eve being in Elohim's image and likeness as meaning they were created "perfect" with no inclination towards sin (being covered in light). But if that is the case, then couldn't we say that man currently IS "perfect" with no inclination towards sin, since man IS the image and glory of Elohim (1 Corinthians 11:7)? The traditional belief that Adam and Eve were given "free will" to choose the good and obey, is a false belief. No true choosing can be done UNTIL one acquires Knowledge of Good AND Evil, and for THEM, that Knowledge did not come until they ate from that tree, and were disobedient. Their disobedience gave them knowledge of what good was (if they would have obeyed) and also knowledge of what evil was (that they did disobey). Acquiring that knowledge equips them to become LIKE Elohim (knowing good and evil-Genesis 3:22) to where they now CAN make a choice to choose the LIGHT/GOOD, and separate it FROM the DARKNESS/EVIL (Genesis 1:4). This IS Elohim's Plan, that mankind had to FIRST dwell in darkness/evil, and THEN be brought INTO the light/goodness for mankind to choose between the two ways, and then abstain from the carnal ways we were created with (our fleshly lusts-1 Peter 2:9-11). The Firstfruits of those whom Elohim is calling out of darkness/evil into His Light/Goodness are an example for the majority of mankind to follow, just as the Firstfruits follow Messiah. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Ken Brown said:

Shalom KBC, again, thank you for taking the time and effort to give me a response. Most, like you, view Adam and Eve being in Elohim's image and likeness as meaning they
were created "perfect" with no inclination towards sin (being covered in light). But if that is the case, then couldn't we say that man currently IS "perfect" with no inclination towards sin, since man IS the image and glory of Elohim (1 Corinthians 11:7)?

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Being perfect does not mean being unable to sin in God's perspective;

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

satan was created perfect according to God, so being perfect does not mean being unable to sin. In fact you cannot have free will if you can't sin and without free will you cannot be the image of God.
1 Corinthians 11:7 taken in context is a speech to those who have aleady been converted and follow God, these are the ones who form the true image of God so, this reference is not about man in general but those men who obey
God's will.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not
righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You see there are two types of people in this world according to God's perspective, those who love and those who don't love. Anyone who is a child of the devil is not the image of God because the image of God is love so,even though man was created to be the image of God they turned from being that image by their own free will however, when we turn back to try and be his image again, from the heart, he will turn back towards us and help us to reclaim
the image that was lost when we turned away.

Joel 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: 13And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he
is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

Can we confirm what the image of God really is from scripture?

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he
made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty
on high

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

Ken Brown said:

The traditional belief that Adam and Eve were given "free will" to choose the good and obey, is a false belief. No true choosing can be done UNTIL one acquires Knowledge of Good AND Evil, and for THEM,
that Knowledge did not come until they ate from that tree, and were disobedient. Their disobedience gave them knowledge of what good was (if they would have obeyed) and also knowledge of what evil was (that they did disobey).
Acquiring that knowledge equips them to become LIKE Elohim (knowing good and evil-Genesis 3:22) to where they now CAN make a choice to choose the LIGHT/GOOD, and separate it FROM the DARKNESS/EVIL (Genesis 1:4). This IS Elohim's Plan, that mankind had to FIRST dwell in darkness/evil, and THEN be brought INTO the light/goodness for mankind to choose between the two ways, and then abstain from the carnal ways we were created with (our fleshly lusts-1 Peter 2:9-11). The Firstfruits of those whom Elohim is calling out of darkness/evil into His Light/Goodness are an example for the majority of mankind to follow, just as the Firstfruits follow Messiah. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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Did God and the angels have free will when they faced evil? You see how your rationale does not work here? If as you assert that an intelligent BEING cannot have the power of a free will choice without first
knowing what good and evil are then you place God and all the angels in the situation that they had no free will choice either and that they must have done evil too in order to learn about it.

Hi KBC1963,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

I have enjoyed the interaction between my Brother, Ken Brown, and you on the issue of whether Adam and Eve were originally created with a free will. Ken has consented to allow me to enter into your discussion with him so also with your permission I will endeavor to do so.

You wrote and asked above:

Did God and the angels have free will when they faced evil?

Yes, they did.

You see how your rationale does not work here?

How so? Perhaps, there is more to this issue than meets your eye.

You further wrote:

If as you assert that an intelligent BEING cannot have the power of a free will choice without first knowing what good and evil are then you place God and all the angels in the situation that they had no free will choice either and that they must have done evil too in order to learn about it.

In my humble opinion, there do exist at least two ways in which an intelligent being can acquire a knowledge of good and evil. An intelligent being can come to know good and evil through engaging in the practice of evil, and an intelligent being can come to know good and evil through being on the receiving end of the practice of evil. HaSatan falls into the former way, and YAHWEH ELOHIM fall into the latter. Everything that YAHWEH ELOHIM does is good so YAHWEH never engages in evil, that is, activity contrary to what YAHWEH has commanded. YAHWEH acquired a knowledge of evil through the activity of HaSatan. This is the meaning of the phrase, "till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:15).

Into which way does Adam and Eve fall?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

Latuwr said:

Hi KBC1963, Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
I have enjoyed the interaction between my Brother, Ken Brown, and you on the issue of whether Adam and Eve were originally created with a free will. Ken has consented to allow me to enter into your discussion with him so also with your permission I will endeavor to do so. You wrote and asked above: Did God and the angels have free will when they faced evil? Yes, they did.

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Hello sir and welcome to the discussion.
Indeed they did have free will prior to any evil occurring and they continue to have it even after having experienced its occurrence

KBC1963 said:

You see how your rationale does not work here?

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Latuwr said:

How so? Perhaps, there is more to this issue than meets your eye

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How it is so is that his argument was foundationally flawed by the assumption that a free will choice could not be made without having an understanding of what each side entails which is easily dealt with by considering the pre-evil state of both God and the angels. Essentially it comes down to this, if you presume that Adam and Eve could not have made a free will choice based on the concept that they did not have intimate understanding of evil to base such a choice on then you automatically place God and the angels in the exact same rationale when satan performed the first act of evil.
We know from scripture that it is stated1/3 of the angels sided with satan and 2/3 sided with God so how could they side either way if they could not make a free willed choice to begin with? To insinuate that Adam and Eve did not have a free will choice based on them not knowing what evil really was is to insinuate that all the angels could not have had that freedom either which would mean that all the angels should have fallen just as Adam and Eve did but, since we know that some chose one way and some chose another proves that having intimate understanding about evil does not preclude the ability to have freedom of choice thus, his rationale for Adam and Eve not having freedom of choice is undermined by past events.

Latuwr said:

You further wrote: If as you assert that an intelligent BEING cannot have the power of a free will choice without first knowing what good and evil are then you place God and all the angels in the situation that they had no free will choice either and that they must have done evil too in order to learn about it.
In my humble opinion, there do exist at least two ways in which an intelligent being can acquire a knowledge of good and evil. An intelligent being can come to know good and evil through engaging in the practice of evil, and an intelligent being can come to know good and evil through being on the receiving end of the practice of evil. HaSatan falls into the former way, and YAHWEH ELOHIM fall into the latter. Everything that YAHWEH ELOHIM does is good so YAHWEH never engages in evil, that is, activity contrary to what YAHWEH has commanded. YAHWEH acquired a knowledge of evil through the activity of HaSatan. This is the meaning of the phrase, "till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:15).

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Indeed I agree with you here 100% on how one might "acquire knowledge" about evil but, the discussion wasn't merely about whether one could learn about it. The discussion was whether one could make a free will choice about doing good or evil if both concepts were not well understood prior to making the decision and as I pointed out above, based on the scriptures about other intelligent beings who were essentially in the same position as Adam and Eve that had never experienced the concept of evil prior to satans acts they did indeed exhibit the free will choice to choose a side without having ever seen or experienced evil. So, in the end the only conclusion one can derive from the biblical evidence is that Adam and Eve had the ability to make a free will choice to obey God or not and God did not set them up to force them into the fall.

Latuwr said:

Into which way does Adam and Eve fall?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am, Sincerely, Latuwr

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Adam and Eve fall onto the same side as the 1/3 of the angels who made the wrong free willed choice. However, the fact and point I was making is that they did indeed have the free will to make the choice. God did not set them up to fail, nor would he. The God of love and his Son planned ahead for the possibility of their bad decision just as we plan ahead for our own children's possible failures.

Hi KBC1963,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Shabbat Shalom!

We both understand and agree that HaSatan was perfect before he engaged in deliberate sin (that is, the murder of ELOHIM as indicated by Messiah in John 8:44). I am not certain, and I have learned to never say never, but it does not appear to me that the ELOHIM had ever experienced before in THEIR history the level of disruption and disunity brought about by the deliberate rebellion of HaSatan and his demons. And, yes, HaSatan had free will. HaSatan knew that obedience to the ELOHIM was good, and HaSatan knowing the good chose to engage in evil. And the ELOHIM acquired a direct knowledge of evil by being the recipient of HaSatan's rebellious and murderous activity.

On the other hand, Adam and Eve, prior to their disobedience, unlike HaSatan, had no knowledge of good and evil, and Eve was not perfect in all her ways. The Genesis account of her temptation and disobedience shows that Eve broke a number of the future Ten Commandments prior to eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. She was not perfect, but she was innocent because of her lack of knowledge, and thus she was no better or worse than a little child (see Jonah 4:10-11).

What happens when a parent places a piece of candy on a coffee table before a toddler, and then instructs the toddler not to take and eat the candy? When the parent walks out of the room, will the toddler continue to obey his or her parent? Maybe for awhile, but there is no doubt in the parent's mind that the child will eventually take and eat the candy. This is exactly the circumstance of Eve. She had no free will with respect to the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Do you yourself see the difference between the sin of Eve and the sin of HaSatan?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

Latuwr said:

Hi KBC1963, Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM! Shabbat Shalom!
We both understand and agree that HaSatan was perfect before he engaged in deliberate sin (that is, the murder of ELOHIM as indicated by Messiah in John 8:44). I am not certain, and I have learned to never say never, but it does not appear to me that the ELOHIM had ever experienced before in THEIR history the level of disruption and disunity brought about by the deliberate rebellion of HaSatan and his demons. And, yes, HaSatan had free will. HaSatan knew that obedience to the ELOHIM was good, and HaSatan knowing the good chose to engage in evil. And the ELOHIM acquired a direct knowledge of evil by being the recipient of HaSatan's rebellious and murderous activity.

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Hail on God's holy day.
You cannot make the assumption that there was a period of time for satan and or the angels to learn or KNOW about good or evil prior to making a decision to disobey since God did not create any evil to be observed. In fact it is well within logic and reason as well as scripture to assert that satan existed in a state of perfection without any foreknowledge about the differences between good and evil until he did sin and the angels who would become demons also were in this same state until they were tempted by satan to follow him as is inferred by the scriptural statement that satan was a liar from the beginning. Think about it, if satan was a liar from the beginning who exactly did he lie too? It could only have been the angels who were still in a holy state and did not have foreknowledge of what evil was. He tempted them just as he would later tempt Eve.

Latuwr said:

On the other hand, Adam and Eve, prior to their disobedience, unlike HaSatan, had no knowledge of good and evil, and Eve was not perfect in all her ways. The Genesis account of her temptation and disobedience shows that Eve broke a number of the future Ten Commandments prior to eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. She was not perfect, but she was innocent because of her lack of knowledge, and thus she was no better or worse than a little child (see Jonah 4:10-11)..

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Adam and Eve unlike satan existed in their perfection knowing that God did not want them to eat of the tree and they obeyed his will for an unknown period of time and never initiated disobedience from within themselves. It was not until the time that satan convinced Eve of a half truth that disobedience was even considered so Eve and Adams sin did not begin from within themselves like satans did, who initiated his own sin all by himself without ever having seen sin prior to his own. So no matter how you may want to rationalize there being a knowledge difference between man and the angels you cannot overcome the fact that God created everything in perfection and there was no possibility of learning about evil until one of the creations actually initiated it. So, at some point prior to Adam and Eves disobedience a creation of God initiated a sin where no foreknowledge of sin existed and the choice was made to disobey by free will.
We are not told of the exact circumstances of how the angels that chose to follow satan were actually convinced but, it was stated that satan was a liar from the beginning so logic dictates that he lied to them just as he lied to Adam and Eve. You cannot make the assumption that there was a period of learning time for the angels to gain understanding of evil prior to them being tempted to follow satan before making their decisions. I would say that the old adage that a leopard can't change his spots applies quite well to satans method of temptation (lies) to initiate sin in beings prior to Eve.
I disagree with your assertion that Eve was not perfect and it is likely that such an assertion is an affront to God who plainly stated that his entire creation including Eve was perfect. Any assumption that Eve was imperfect or sinning in some manner innocently has no scriptural evidence to back it.
Jonah 4:10-11 has no analogy for this scenario. Your assumption of this verse is that the people of Nineveh didn't know good from evil but this is not true as we can see here;

Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Look carefully at the message that was sent to them.... it was quite simple... in forty days Nineveh would be overthrown. It doesn't say why they would be overthrown does it? It was entirely the king of Nineveh that commanded his people to turn from their evil ways. If they had no concept of what their evil ways were then how exactly would they know what ways they were to turn from? God certainly didn't send a message to them defining how they were sinning did he? To this day no one knows exactly what the Ninevites sins were but, logic dictates that in order to turn from evil they must have known what that evil was so they were not innocent in understanding.
Consider this;
Jeremiah 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Were the people of Judah and Jerusalem innocent? were they sinning without understanding? let's read on

12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
18 Then said they, Come and let us devise devices against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, and let us smite him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.

No they knew exactly what they were doing was against God's desires and they were most certainly not acting in innocence but just like Nineveh God gave them the opportunity to turn from the evil they knew they were doing and repent from having done it but apparently they freely chose to disobey.

Latuwr said:

What happens when a parent places a piece of candy on a coffee table before a toddler, and then instructs the toddler not to take and eat the candy? When the parent walks out of the room, will the toddler continue to obey his or her parent? Maybe for awhile, but there is no doubt in the parent's mind that the child will eventually take and eat the candy. This is exactly the circumstance of Eve. She had no free will with respect to the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

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The problematic in your attempted analogy here is that Adam and Eve lived with the candy on the table for an undisclosed period of time and did not by themselves initiate disobedience to their parent. It was not until some other kid who had already disobeyed his parent came into their room and convinced them to follow his actions that disobedience was even considered.

Latuwr said:

Do you yourself see the difference between the sin of Eve and the sin of HaSatan? Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am, Sincerely, Latuwr

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Yes I do. satans sin originated from within himself with no other being tempting him and no possibility of foreknowledge. The angels along with Adam and Eve were told lies by the tempter to initiate their sins.

Hi KBC1963,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

Thank you for your extensive reply. If you don't mind, I am inclined to offer to you in response shorter posts which detail a specific topic or two.

You asserted this to me:

Adam and Eve unlike satan existed in their perfection knowing that God did not want them to eat of the tree and they obeyed his will for an unknown period of time and never initiated disobedience from within themselves.

Your assertion may be true of Eve, but according to the Scriptures, it is not true of Adam.

1 Timothy 2:14
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

According to the above statement by the Apostle Paul, Adam himself was not deceived by HaSatan. Of course this goes along with the Genesis account of the fall. YAHWEH acknowledges that Eve listened to HaSatan (see Genesis 3:13), and YAHWEH tells us all that Adam sinned by listening to his wife (see Genesis 3:17-19). So Adam's sin came from his desire to share the fate of his wife. Previously, Adam had named all the animals, and he knew that no one else existed for him. This desire to be with his wife came from within Adam. So, you should not blame Adam's offence on HaSatan, and neither does YAHWEH ELOHIM place Adam's sin on HaSatan. The offence of Adam came from within himself.

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

Are you sure you have the correct definition of what sin is to properly discuss the problem? If you go to Psalm 78:32 or Jeremiah 9:3-6, you see sin as not trusting in a loving Father. Satan has taken the verse that says "sin is transgression of the law" and twisted in such a way to think that the act results in punishment by God (The wages of sin is death). The wages of not trusting in God is what causes the death and NOT GOD. If you don't trust in a loving God you'll not do his commandments which were simply given for us to lead happy lives.

Eating off the tree was not a test of allegiance as some infer. Your analogy of candy left on the table throws light on the situation. The candy would have been temptations. Paul tells us we can defeat Satan's suggestions to our mind by our knowledge of God.

James 1 : 9 "nor does he tempt anyone."

Satan tempted Eve by saying the fruit was good for gaining wisdom.

GENESIS 3 : 6 "When the woman saw that the fruit of three was GOOD FOR FOOD a PLEASING TO THE EYE, and also DESIRABLE FOR GAINING WISDOM, she took some and ate it."

If these were temptations testing allegiance, two were by God. Since we know he doesn't tempt we know this is a deception by Satan. It was a warning by a loving Father not to use freewill. Eating off the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is an analogy for trusting in yourself instead of God. The last 6000 years have shown the folly of freewill. We have caused pain and suffering and have the nerve to blame it on God.

HOSEA 10 : 13 "You have eaten the fruit of deception, because you have depended on your own strength."

Yes, my punctuation is different than what your Bible says. Punctuation is a guess by the interpreters since Hebrew has none. As you see it reads just fine when you use it the way God intended.

Latuwr said:

Hi KBC1963, Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM! Thank you for your extensive reply. If you don't mind, I am inclined to offer to you in response shorter posts which detail a specific topic or two. You asserted this to me:
Adam and Eve unlike satan existed in their perfection knowing that God did not want them to eat of the tree and they obeyed his will for an unknown period of time and never initiated disobedience from within themselves.
Your assertion may be true of Eve, but according to the Scriptures, it is not true of Adam.
1 Timothy 2:14
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
According to the above statement by the Apostle Paul, Adam himself was not deceived by HaSatan. Of course this goes along with the Genesis account of the fall. YAHWEH acknowledges that Eve listened to HaSatan (see Genesis 3:13), and YAHWEH tells us all that Adam sinned by listening to his wife (see Genesis 3:17-19). So Adam's sin came from his desire to share the fate of his wife. Previously, Adam had named all the animals, and he knew that no one else existed for him. This desire to be with his wife came from within Adam. So, you should not blame Adam's offence on HaSatan, and neither does YAHWEH ELOHIM place Adam's sin on HaSatan. The offence of Adam came from within himself. Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am, Sincerely, Latuwr

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There is no denying that Eve failed first and it could be that Adam fell as you are inclined to surmise though it is not actually defined as to why he did. However, you should agree that they both transgressed after the tempter played his part. Eve was tempted by satan and Adam was tempted by Eve and neither of them were tempted prior to satans actions so in the end neither of their sins originated from within and both are considered transgressors.
If as you say Adams offence came from within himself then you are avoiding the fact and his own testimony that his offence was caused by the woman that God had given him;
Genesis 3:12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
The essence of Adams argument was that he had not intended to sin but had been induced into it by the words of his wife as verified by God a few verses later;
Genesis 3:17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife,
Eves argument was essentially the same, she was talked into it by satan. So in both cases they had existed in perfection until something from outside themselves set them on a path to disobey.
So unless you can show that Adam would have disobeyed on his own without an influence from his wife who was in turn influenced by satan then you cannot assert that his offence originated from within himself.

It should be fairly easy to surmise that had satan not tempted Eve then neither her nor Adam would have disobeyed God on their own.

One thing that seems a bit mysterious though is the fact that it is stated that sin entered by one man, Adam and not Eve even though it is plainly related that Eve was the first to fail.

Ron Hackel said:

Your analogy of candy left on the table throws light on the situation. The candy would have been temptations.
James 1 : 9 "nor does he tempt anyone."

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You are quite correct about the candy analogy. In fact candy is only a temptation to those who have had it before and desire to have it again which is an impossibility for Adam and Eve. God could have put candy and a screwdriver and an old tire on the table and none of those items would have held any meaning to them since they had never had it before.

Ron Hackel said:

Satan tempted Eve by saying the fruit was good for gaining wisdom.
GENESIS 3:6 "When the woman saw that the fruit of three was GOOD FOR FOOD a PLEASING TO THE EYE, and also DESIRABLE FOR GAINING WISDOM, she took some and ate it."

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Indeed it was satans implication that God was intentionally withholding something beneficial from them that caused Eve to question God's motives for denial of the fruit.

Ron Hackel said:

If these were temptations testing allegiance, two were by God. Since we know he doesn't tempt we know this is a deception by Satan. It was a warning by a loving Father not to use freewill. Eating off the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is an analogy for trusting in yourself instead of God. The last 6000 years have shown the folly of freewill. We have caused pain and suffering and have the nerve to blame it on God.
HOSEA 10:13 "You have eaten the fruit of deception, because you have depended on your own strength."
Yes, my punctuation is different than what your Bible says. Punctuation is a guess by the interpreters since Hebrew has none. As you see it reads just fine when you use it the way God intended.

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The temptation in the garden was never about allegiance to God or anyone other than God. The temptation was entirely to be equal with God. satan implied that they would have all the knowledge of God and no longer be subject to his rules. He told Eve;
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods

what he himself believed to be true;
Isaiah 14:14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

KBC 1963
Do you believe the same lie Eve did? Do you believe we should have freewill?

Hi KBC1963,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

You stated to me:

I disagree with your assertion that Eve was not perfect and it is likely that such an assertion is an affront to God who plainly stated that his entire creation including Eve was perfect. Any assumption that Eve was imperfect or sinning in some manner innocently has no scriptural evidence to back it.

Where does ELOHIM state that Eve was perfect?

The Apostle Paul explains the toddler or the natural state of man in this manner:

Romans 7:9-13

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? ELOHIM forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

A commandment was given to Adam and Eve. Indeed, several commandments were given to them. According to the Apostle Paul, the existence of a commandment could not be blamed for his sin; rather, sin arose from within him as awakened by the commandment. Paul neither blames the commandment nor the giver of the commandment, ELOHIM, as the cause for his sin.

The Apostle Paul further relates this concerning Law:

1 Timothy 1:9-10

9 Knowing this, that law is not established for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the unelohimly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

If Adam and Eve were perfect in their natural state as you teach, why did ELOHIM give them a commandment? You like Eve are in denial concerning her natural state because you do not believe it possible that ELOHIM created a being with the existence of dormant sin within themselves. You like Eve are more than willing to blame HaSatan for her sin without giving recognition to the sin that dwelt within Eve prior to her sin.

The Apostle Paul further teaches in 1 Corinthians 15:45-50:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the YAHWEH from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of ELOHIM; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

If you yourself are unable to recognize that the natural or created state of man is earthy, how will you ever be able to recognize that earthy man can overcome his or her carnal nature and put on the Heavenly Man?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

Ron Hackel said:

KBC 1963
Do you believe the same lie Eve did? Do you believe we should have freewill?

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Well Ron,
God already gave us free will from the beginning. We cannot be the image of God without free will. The lie told to Eve was that she could be equal with God by knowledge and not be subservient to him. So, we have no choice for whether we have free will but we do have a choice to follow God's will or anyone else's will including our own. Now the question really is should we follow anyone else's will other than God's and I choose no.

Latuwr said:

Hi KBC1963, Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM! You stated to me:
I disagree with your assertion that Eve was not perfect and it is likely that such an assertion is an affront to God who plainly stated that his entire creation including Eve was perfect. Any assumption that Eve was imperfect or sinning in some manner innocently has no scriptural evidence to back it.
Where does ELOHIM state that Eve was perfect?

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Seriously? You don't know where God states that everything he created was good?

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Now I question whether I should be discussing this subject with you. We should both have a working knowledge of God's word as our foundation for a discussion about it. If you have not made it through Genesis then we cannot really have much of a discussion can we? I mean you no disrespect but I should not be expected to point out what should be well known.

Latuwr said:

The Apostle Paul explains the toddler or the natural state of man in this manner:
Romans 7:9-13
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died....

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I don't see anything being implied for a toddler or natural state. Paul was never without the law since every Jew taught their children about God and all his words and keep in mind that Paul was a pharisee;
Deuteronomy 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children...
The proof of this is in the part of your reference that states "sin revived". Sin can't revive unless there was a prior point in his life where he was convinced that he was sinful and then felt that he had overcome it.
Adam and Eve had no prior state of sinfulness so your analogy has no reference to them. However, there is a meaning that Paul is alluding to there, do you know what it is?

Latuwr said:

A commandment was given to Adam and Eve. Indeed, several commandments were given to them. According to the Apostle Paul, the existence of a commandment could not be blamed for his sin; rather, sin arose from within him as awakened by the commandment. Paul neither blames the commandment nor the giver of the commandment, ELOHIM, as the cause for his sin.
The Apostle Paul further relates this concerning Law:
1 Timothy 1:9-10
9 Knowing this, that law is not established for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the unelohimly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

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Commands were certainly given to Adam and Eve but unlike Paul they were not born into sin like he was which is why there is no analogy between them;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

It was only after Adams sin that sin could have been passed on to his descendants and the descendants born into an already sinful state which would express itself from within.

Latuwr said:

If Adam and Eve were perfect in their natural state as you teach, why did ELOHIM give them a commandment? You like Eve are in denial concerning her natural state because you do not believe it possible that ELOHIM created a being with the existence of dormant sin within themselves. You like Eve are more than willing to blame HaSatan for her sin without giving recognition to the sin that dwelt within Eve prior to her sin.

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It is not I that teaches that sin originated without being dormant (or created in them as a natural state as you imply) inside God's created beings. Think about this carefully.... Satan was created heavenly not earthy and he was considered perfect until the point that he sinned and God clearly states

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was able to be with God face to face because he was created perfect sinless. Adam and Eve also were created sinless and perfect as well as existing in the very presence of God. There is no intimation anywhere in the biblical texts that asserts that any of God's creations originated with a sinful nature. In fact the intimation given from the biblical text is that the nature of man was created good not sinful;

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright

Latuwr said:

If you yourself are unable to recognize that the natural or created state of man is earthy, how will you ever be able to recognize that earthy man can overcome his or her carnal nature and put on the Heavenly Man?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am, Sincerely, Latuwr

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The sinful nature of man was not the created nature. You do realize that Christ was flesh and blood too right? By your logic your saying that Christ himself had a sinful nature and further if you believe that Jesus is God that would additionally mean that God had a sinful nature.

A very slippery slope there.

KBC 1963
God allowed freewill to show its flaws. And yes we can be like God without freewill. Just like Jesus was the image of God. Jesus said I'm in the Father and the Father is in me. God can only do this if you fully trust him. Once you do he can put his Spirit in you and you will be the image of the Father. What we want is TO BE GOD not like God. We want to make our own decisions. We can't do that and God has proven it by what has transpired on the earth over the last 6000 years. With freewill you think selfishly. God runs the universe under the law of love. Everyone lives to give. Paul said we had o excuse in not knowing this because of what God had created. Everything that we haven't screwed up was a perfect circle of giving. I'm sure you remember from your science class the law of thermal dynamics-nothing is ever gained or lost only changed. we breathe in O2 and breathe out CO2. Plants do the exact reverse-the law of love.

Hi KBC1963,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

You questioned in my presence:

"Now I question whether I should be discussing this subject with you."

Yes, indeed, the higher on the Mountain one ascends, the more slippery the slope becomes. For all those who do not have a solid footing in the Holy Scriptures and a strong grip in the hands both the right and the left (righteous activity of the hands), they have no chance of success in reaching the summit.

Please allow me to state in no uncertain terms what I believe concerning ELOHIM. I believe that ELOHIM is a family of Beings, and some of those Beings are older than others. The oldest is the Ancient of Days. This Supreme Being expanded His Family through creation, and, thus, HaSatan became a Son of ELOHIM.

We can see from the Book of Job, that even after sin was found within him, HaSatan was able to interface with the ELOHIM. I mean, look at the attitude of HaSatan. To me he exhibits many of the characteristics of a rebellious teenager who is quite certain that he knows more than his parents. When asked, this is how HaSatan replies:

Job 1:7

7 And YAHWEH said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered YAHWEH, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Of course, you yourself with your extensive knowledge of the Scriptures should immediately recognize the slap in the face that HaSatan was offering right here to YAHWEH. The reply of HaSatan was a direct provocation to YAHWEH because YAHWEH had said concerning HaSatan that he would crawl on his belly, and HaSatan just had to point out to YAHWEH that he was still walking. Does YAHWEH then turn the other cheek? HE sure does. YAHWEH gives HaSatan permission to attack Job in order that HaSatan might learn a critical lesson. YAHWEH calls attention to the fact that Job was "perfect and upright". Does this mean that Job had no potential for sin within himself? In other words, could sin have been found within Job as it was found within HaSatan? Absolutely! Otherwise, what do these words by Job mean?:

Job 42:6

6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Unlike HaSatan, Job found sin within himself, and Job repented. This HaSatan did and could not do!

Now, it is obvious from the Genesis account that Adam and Eve found sin within themselves through eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. How can anyone who has no conception of the nature of Good and Evil like Adam and Eve, how can they themselves be said to be good especially in light of the fact that only ELOHIM is good (see Matthew 19:17)?

Yes, be careful, it is rather slippery right here!

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr