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The Law

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Here is what a rod of iron is all about. Its a rod that doesn't change its length! There will be justice, and the implication is that peace will be based on justice rather than upon weapons, hence it will be based upon the Torah. He's prophesying to Jews that Torah is very important. That has always been the theme of these post-Babylonian prophets. They always insist "Keep the Torah" and always give lots of reasons why its important. Rulers have a 'Rod', because they set values for things such as basic lengths, calendars, weights etc. A king 'Metes' out justice. This king's justice will be the Torah, a thing that never changes, thus it is a rod of iron.


First, the passage you keep quoting is also in Luke where it says "I have not come to bring peace but division." This is the division between the righteous and the unrighteous. It has nothing to do with attacking anyone with weapons.

I gave a quotation of Acts where it is called the 'Gospel of peace'. You could say that is talking about peace between God and the gentiles. It would not be wrong to say that. Nor have I implied that peace has been established already, physically. One of the strange things about Jesus ministry is that he says John the Baptist is Elijah, and from there he diverges completely from physical reality in his discussions of the Kingdom of God. He talks about it like its everywhere, just as Elijah talks about the LORD's invisible armies that nobody else can see. He proclaims that the kingdom has arrived when very clearly, physically and politically all the Jews are under the thumb of the Roman Empire at its height. Many are slaves of Rome. Many are executed. I hope you already take this into consideration when you read Jesus preaching and the counter intuitive message he brings. Its not a message of uprising but of acceptance. You would say probably tell him he was preaching peace when there was no peace, because that is what you said to me, completely taking some text out of its context.

  • to shine on those living in darkness
    and in the shadow of death,
    to guide our feet into the path of peace. (Luke 1:79)
  • Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other. (Mark 9:50)
  • If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. (Luke 10:6)

Dear brick,
That narrow path which leads to life and peace, was only found by the "few", it is the wide path that leads to destruction which is the game of the day, and the "many find it. (Mt 7:14)

As an example of the rod of iron, which is used on the nations, can be found in Zechariah 14:17, right after the "lord will be king over all the earth" (Zech 14:9), and it reads," And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them". Lack of rain is the method used to force compliance from the "nations".

The "division" you speak of his between family members. (Mt 10:34-35) The division between the wicked and righteous will be done "at the end of the age" and by the angels. (Mt 13:49) The wicked will first be "gathered in" to be "burned up", and then the wheat will be put into the barn. (Mt 13:30)

Mt 10:34-35,"
34“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35“For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

37“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Dear brick,
That narrow path which leads to life and peace, was only found by the "few", it is the wide path that leads to destruction which is the game of the day, and the "many find it. (Mt 7:14)
The dissonance with basic morality with what you are saying is really appalling. The 'Narrow path' is the path of humility. That is the path that people have the most trouble finding. Please ignore people who say it is about narrow thinking. It is easy to be narrow minded and to exclude and cut off other people. That is not the narrow path. That is the selfish path. The narrow path requires patience based upon humility, because you leave judgement up to God and deal with people who may not be easy to deal with such as people like me.

As an example of the rod of iron, which is used on the nations, can be found in Zechariah 14:17, right after the "lord will be king over all the earth" (Zech 14:9), and it reads," And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them". Lack of rain is the method used to force compliance from the "nations".
It is in chapter 14 of a book with flying scrolls in it, so it may take some effort to put it into context. Going back just one chapter to chapter 13 verse 1 it says "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity." If you are Christian then you should believe that this is talking about the obedience of Jesus (or Yeshua). It is an event that happens through his obedience although it is more immediately talking about another event which happens when the temple is rebuilt (2 times) It happens multiple times in multiple ways. Moving forward to Zechariah chapter 14 we read "I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped." which is an event that did happen twice after Zechariah's book was written multiple times, but it happened long before Jesus was born and then also about 40 years after Jesus died. It happened repeatedly in other words. Afterwords the LORD did go out and do battle each time, just not physical battle.

Counterpoint these two prophecies for me:
  • Zechariah 10:5 "From Judah will come the cornerstone, from him the tent peg, from him the battle bow, from him every ruler. Together they will be like warriors in battle trampling their enemy into the mud of the streets. They will fight because the LORD is with them, and they will put the enemy horsemen to shame."
  • Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.
Notice that Zechariah 10:5 says they will be 'Like' warriors not that they will 'Be' warriors. They fight, but they don't really trample people into the mud.
 

KBC1963

Active Member
Shalom KCB, I really do appreciate what you have written here. I can see that on the surface we are not that far apart, but I would like to ask you if you have an opinion on WHY the carnal man (natural man-Adam) was FIRST, and not the Spiritual Man. It is obvious that you believe it takes the Spirit for any righteousness to occur, so why didn't Elohim start out with the Spiritual Man, instead of the carnal/natural man with His plan: 1 Corinthians 15:45-49
Because God intended that we would be formed in the image of himself and his son and this image cannot be created instantly. We as gods had to learn why we should exist like them and only by being able to see the effects of our decisions could we make an honest free will choice to do what is right. God through Christ is creating offspring and just like them we were to experience both good and evil and freely choose the good;
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children.......

Ken Brown said:
And two related questions. 1. Why did Elohim consign or shut up ALL in disobedience (Romans 11:32).
So that both Jew and gentile could become the children of the promise.

Ken Brown said:
2. Why did Elohim subject an unwilling creation to moral depravity (G3153) - Romans 8:20. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew
I will look into this further.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The dissonance with basic morality with what you are saying is really appalling. The 'Narrow path' is the path of humility. That is the path that people have the most trouble finding. Please ignore people who say it is about narrow thinking. It is easy to be narrow minded and to exclude and cut off other people. That is not the narrow path. That is the selfish path. The narrow path requires patience based upon humility, because you leave judgement up to God and deal with people who may not be easy to deal with such as people like me.


It is in chapter 14 of a book with flying scrolls in it, so it may take some effort to put it into context. Going back just one chapter to chapter 13 verse 1 it says "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity." If you are Christian then you should believe that this is talking about the obedience of Jesus (or Yeshua). It is an event that happens through his obedience although it is more immediately talking about another event which happens when the temple is rebuilt (2 times) It happens multiple times in multiple ways. Moving forward to Zechariah chapter 14 we read "I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped." which is an event that did happen twice after Zechariah's book was written multiple times, but it happened long before Jesus was born and then also about 40 years after Jesus died. It happened repeatedly in other words. Afterwords the LORD did go out and do battle each time, just not physical battle.

Counterpoint these two prophecies for me:
  • Zechariah 10:5 "From Judah will come the cornerstone, from him the tent peg, from him the battle bow, from him every ruler. Together they will be like warriors in battle trampling their enemy into the mud of the streets. They will fight because the LORD is with them, and they will put the enemy horsemen to shame."
  • Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.
Notice that Zechariah 10:5 says they will be 'Like' warriors not that they will 'Be' warriors. They fight, but they don't really trample people into the mud.

Dear brick,
I doubt if it will help much, but you might want to try and get a better version of the bible. Here is a NAS version of Zechariah 10:5, "And they will be as mighty men, treading down the enemy in the mire of the streets in battle; and they will fight, for the lord will be with them; and the riders on horses will be put to shame. And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I shall save the house of Joseph." You might want to read about the 1948, 67, and 73 Israel wars, which were a warm up to the next war, in which "they will fight" for "the lord will be with them", and even the "house of Joseph" will be "saved", even though they had been "rejected" for reason.

As for Chapter 14 of Zechariah, that is about the near future, when "the lord will be king over all the earth" and "Jerusalem will dwell in security." (Zech 14:9-11). Zechariah chapter 13 is about 2000 years ago, when "the Shepherd" is struck down, and "that the sheep may be scattered". (Ze 14:7)
 
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Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Dear brick,
I doubt if it will help much, but you might want to try and get a better version of the bible.
No, I'm sure that it will not turn God into a bloodthirsty jerk, but I suppose we could try since you insist.
Here is a NAS version of Zechariah 10:5, "And they will be as mighty men, treading down the enemy in the mire of the streets in battle; and they will fight, for the lord will be with them; and the riders on horses will be put to shame. And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I shall save the house of Joseph." You might want to read about the 1948, 67, and 73 Israel wars, which were a warm up to the next war, in which "they will fight" for "the lord will be with them", and even the "house of Joseph" will be "saved", even though they had been "rejected" for reason.
It says they will be 'As mighty men' not 'They will be mighty men'. You see, this version of the Bible has the very same God, the one who loves peace. Notice that God's army isn't one that fights with physical weapons, doesn't trust in chariots and horses, and its sword is in its mouth not in its hands. It believes in a kingdom that is made without hands. It waits patiently for the millennia to pass while the Lord conquers every enemy, even death; and Jesus preaches about such a kingdom, too. In the world we have tribulation, but we have overcome the world. The question is are you willing to fight, and are you truly interested in joining such an army. Can you take on the burden of your fellow and make a difference with your life. Are you a true friend or an empty suit to your neighbor. Do you only help people when it benefits you, or do you fight alongside the Lord in the invisible battle against the principalities, the powers and the rulers of the ignorance of our age, question-mark.

As for Chapter 14 of Zechariah, that is about the near future, when "the lord will be king over all the earth" and "Jerusalem will dwell in security." (Zech 14:9-11). Zechariah chapter 13 is about 2000 years ago, when "the Shepherd" is struck down, and "that the sheep may be scattered". (Ze 14:7)
Near future? I like that. It is very hot-blooded, but I am in it for the long haul even if it doesn't come in the near future.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
No, I'm sure that it will not turn God into a bloodthirsty jerk, but I suppose we could try since you insist.

It says they will be 'As mighty men' not 'They will be mighty men'. You see, this version of the Bible has the very same God, the one who loves peace. Notice that God's army isn't one that fights with physical weapons, doesn't trust in chariots and horses, and its sword is in its mouth not in its hands. It believes in a kingdom that is made without hands. It waits patiently for the millennia to pass while the Lord conquers every enemy, even death; and Jesus preaches about such a kingdom, too. In the world we have tribulation, but we have overcome the world. The question is are you willing to fight, and are you truly interested in joining such an army. Can you take on the burden of your fellow and make a difference with your life. Are you a true friend or an empty suit to your neighbor. Do you only help people when it benefits you, or do you fight alongside the Lord in the invisible battle against the principalities, the powers and the rulers of the ignorance of our age, question-mark.


Near future? I like that. It is very hot-blooded, but I am in it for the long haul even if it doesn't come in the near future.

Dear brick,
The reason it doesn't say they will be like mini men, is that mini men would not be able to "tread down the enemy", nor would they "fight". Cowards, per Rev 21:8, have their part in the "lake of fire". It is the "stone cut out with hands" which will "crush" and "put to an end these kingdoms". (Daniel 2). While there are Spiritual wars in heaven, that reflect what is to happen on earth, what happens on earth is with respect to flesh and blood. I am now fighting the Spiritual aspect of the war, with the use of a two edged sword. Per Zechariah 14:14, it is Judah who will "fight at Jerusalem", not fighting a spiritual war in heaven, and at it will not go well for the "nations" at the end of the day. Not to say that there will not be real life casualties in Jerusalem by Judah, as there are weekly at this preliminary time.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Dear brick,
The reason it doesn't say they will be like mini men, is that mini men would not be able to "tread down the enemy", nor would they "fight".
Peace is effective, so it is 'Like' a mighty army; but it is not physically violent. I am not just talking and saying 'Peace' though. You have not said to me which canon you accept. Do you accept this statement by James? "Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness." (James 3:18) You see James talks about peace, but he doesn't merely talk about it. Why does Jesus preach "Blessed are the peacemakers" in your opinion? So I am advocating peacemaking, not just saying 'Peace'. There is a huge difference between talking and doing. Doing requires forgiveness, patience, longsuffering. Talking about peace is not worth much, but making peacemaking is.

An army of peacemakers should strike a bell. It reminds me of this: "Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?" (Genesis 18:18)
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Because God intended that we would be formed in the image of himself and his son and this image cannot be created instantly. We as gods had to learn why we should exist like them and only by being able to see the effects of our decisions could we make an honest free will choice to do what is right. God through Christ is creating offspring and just like them we were to experience both good and evil and freely choose the good;
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children.......


So that both Jew and gentile could become the children of the promise.


I will look into this further.
Shalom KBC, thank you again for your explanations. I think we may be looking at Elohim's plan in some what a similar fashion. To plainly explain it, Elohim created carnal man (Adam) to be against Him (sold into the slavery to commit sin by creating him/us FLESH-Romans 7:14), for the FLESH cannot and will not OBEY Elohim, it is impossible to do so (Romans 8:5-8). Then, at the APPOINTED time in the history of carnal man, He sent Yeshua to redeem us back from being sold into the slavery to sin. This is the blessing He is sharing with us in TURNING us away from ALL our iniquities (Acts of the Apostles 3:26). We can look at it like how our immune system and inoculations works, we FIRST have to be exposed to a less deadly form of a disease (FLESHLY sin), so that we can be protected from the eternal disease (Spiritual sin), which cannot be cured. Our FLESHLY sin is what killed or sacrificed Yeshua and once we come to a knowledge of the Truth concerning this, we really only have one choice to make...flee from that sin, and no longer dwell therein. Elohim's plan is foolproof in teaching us to stop sinning, unless we truly prove to Him that we are WILLFUL transgressors (Galatians 2:18), and then the only outcome is what Hebrews 6:8 says. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Peace is effective, so it is 'Like' a mighty army; but it is not physically violent. I am not just talking and saying 'Peace' though. You have not said to me which canon you accept. Do you accept this statement by James? "Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness." (James 3:18) You see James talks about peace, but he doesn't merely talk about it. Why does Jesus preach "Blessed are the peacemakers" in your opinion? So I am advocating peacemaking, not just saying 'Peace'. There is a huge difference between talking and doing. Doing requires forgiveness, patience, longsuffering. Talking about peace is not worth much, but making peacemaking is.

An army of peacemakers should strike a bell. It reminds me of this: "Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?" (Genesis 18:18)

Dear brick,
Saying "peace", when there is no peace, and being a peace maker are two different things. Trying to be a peace maker, like Chamberlain' Munich agreement with Hitler, only results in a greater war, and it differs from actually making peace. Peace comes from God, and is given to those who abide in his Law.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Dear brick,
Saying "peace", when there is no peace, and being a peace maker are two different things. Trying to be a peace maker, like Chamberlain' Munich agreement with Hitler, only results in a greater war, and it differs from actually making peace. Peace comes from God, and is given to those who abide in his Law.
Hello again. Glad to see you are joining the conversation. That is correct. The 'Gospel of peace' is what it is called for a reason, so please stop giving me a hard time about actually knowing what it is. Indeed peace is something you make with your fellow human beings, not simply something that you claim exists.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Dear brick,
That narrow path which leads to life and peace, was only found by the "few", it is the wide path that leads to destruction which is the game of the day, and the "many find it. (Mt 7:14)

As an example of the rod of iron, which is used on the nations, can be found in Zechariah 14:17, right after the "lord will be king over all the earth" (Zech 14:9), and it reads," And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them". Lack of rain is the method used to force compliance from the "nations".

The "division" you speak of his between family members. (Mt 10:34-35) The division between the wicked and righteous will be done "at the end of the age" and by the angels. (Mt 13:49) The wicked will first be "gathered in" to be "burned up", and then the wheat will be put into the barn. (Mt 13:30)

Mt 10:34-35,"
34“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35“For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

37“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Great stuff, very profound.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Hello again. Glad to see you are joining the conversation. That is correct. The 'Gospel of peace' is what it is called for a reason, so please stop giving me a hard time about actually knowing what it is. Indeed peace is something you make with your fellow human beings, not simply something that you claim exists.

Dear brick,
You do not make/force "peace" with your neighbor. If you love your neighbor as yourself, and keep the Law, then peace will follow in your life. If the world rejects the Law of Peace, then there will be no peace, as is the case of the world today. The "peace" maker of the hour is Barry Soetoro and his peace agreement with Iran. Like Chamberlain, this effort at making peace, will end up bringing a curse (Gen 12:13) on the U.S., and definitely, no peace. Barry's chief advisor, Valerie Jarrett, comes from a communist family, was born in Iran, and is Muslim. That path is one leading to destruction. The path the U.S. is on, is not one leading to peace, even though Barry is conferring with the so called peace maker, the pope. As per Isaiah 22:25, the pope is going to "fall", and all hanging onto him will be "cut off". As for Barry, he is simply a fulfillment of Revelation 16, whereas he is one of the kings who has received one of the "spirits of demons", in order to help the nations gather against Jerusalem (Rev 16:14).
 

12jtartar

Active Member
Premium Member
Aleichem Shalom Ken,
You have no idea how happy I am to get a response from someone who, obviously, knows something about the Holy Scriptures. I love for someone to care about the truth t question me about what I said.
Ken, please reason about this, first. You know there are many scriptures in the Hebrew texts that speak about the coming of the Messiah, some say hundreds, I say at least dozens. Mathematicians say that Jesus, even fulfilling 10, and especially things such as his birth place, and his death, are an impossibility, Micah 5:2-4, Isaiah, the 53rd chapter. Jesus died on the Passover, the same date as the Jews left Egypt.
Now, if you read Jeremiah 31:31-34 you can definitely understand the The Mosaic Law Covenant was only an interim Covenant, not a permanent Covenant, but only until the Messiah would come, Galatians 3:21-26.
The curse of the Mosaic Covenant; Galatians tells us that everyone under the Law was under a curse, Galatians 3:10-14. The reason it was a curse is it condemned to death all who disobeyed the Law, Romans 6:23, 2Corinthians 6,7. He Bible states that if you could obey The Mosaic Law perfectly, you could live by it, but no human can or could obey the Law perfectly. Peter, Jew said the could not obey perfectly, Acts of the Apostles 15:1,2, 9-12. Remember it was not to Jews only that God would bless, but because of Abraham all nations would be blessed. Another thing, all these who are testifying to Jesus being the Messiah, were Jews, and there were thousands, even I the first century. All things were to be decided by two or three!!! Deuteronomy 19:15. Here you have hundreds of Jews, Apostles who received the powerful gifts of The Holy Spirit, which were not ever given to any who did not become Christians, Acts of the Apostles 2:1-4, 15-19, 22, Acts of the Apostles 4:9-13, Acts of the Apostles 5:29-32.
Another interesting point; the Jews, at the time that Jesus came were expecting the Messiah to come, that is why they thought that John the Baptist was the Messiah, Luke 3:15,16. The Jews knew it was time for the Messiah to come, because of the prophecy recorded at Daniel 9:24-27, The 70 weeks prophecy. Jesus came to be baptized exactly on the date of Daniels prophecy, 29CE. This is just one of the proofs that Jesus was really the Messiah.
The end of The Mosaic Law!! Consider Colossians 2:13,14. Consider Colossians 2:16,17 where we are told that the celebration of the Sabbath was no more, under the Law breaking the Mosaic Law, concerning the Sabbath was a death sentence, Exodus 31:13-17. Other scriptures that tell about the end of The Mosaic Law Covenant, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:6.
Jesus gave his life, and Jesus' blood was the basis of The New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death, Luke 22:19,20, 1Corinthians 11:23-26. The New Covenant superseded the Mosaic Law Covenant, and took force when Jesus died, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 9:15-22. Jesus fulfilled the whole Law at his death!!!
Matthew 5:18 says none of the Law would pass away until all things take place, Luke 24:44, John 19:30.
The term about the heavens and the earth passing away, was in reference to Revelation 21:1,2. The New earth and the New Heaven is speaking about the removal of Satan and his demons as the old earth, Ephesians 2:2, Revelation 12:9, John 16:11. The New earth will be the new conditions in the earth after Armageddon, when only righteous people will be alive.
Since we are not under The Mosaic Law Covenant, we are not required to obey any of its because it has ended. There are many parts of the Mosaic Covenant that were reiterated, and are also in the New Covenant.
The great difference is the basis on which the two Covenants were founded, the Mosaic on the blood of goats and Bulls, The New Covenant on the Precious blood of God's only begotten son, Hebrews 9:19-25, Hebrews 10:28,29, Hebrews 10:1-4, 14-18.
Who is under the Mosaic Law Covenant??? No person on earth is under The Mosaic law Covenant, it has been superseded by a New Covenant, a much better Covenant, one based on Jesus blood and written on hearts and NOT on stones 2 Corinthians 3:3,6,7-16.
The Mosaic Law Covenant was given ONLY to the Jews, Deuteronomy 4:5-8, Deuteronomy 5:1-3, Psalms 147:19,20.
No gentile was ever under the Mosaic Law, except a few proselytes, Romans 2:14.
No Jew is under The Mosaic Law Covenant, Romans 6:14,15, not even Paul a Jew and the foremost teacher of Christianity, 1Corinthians 9:20. Please meditate on these scriptures, and think about this, of the Messiah has not come yet, he must not be coming, for we are now in the last days of this old world, when Jesus will come as judge of the earth, Armageddon!!! Revelation 19:11-21.
Thanks for the tip about the scriptures!!!
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Dear brick,
You do not make/force "peace" with your neighbor. If you love your neighbor as yourself, and keep the Law, then peace will follow in your life. If the world rejects the Law of Peace, then there will be no peace, as is the case of the world today.
You said that I was fulfilling a prophecy about 'peace peace when there is no peace' and the gospel was going to be finally settled by a war of physical weapons.
The "peace" maker of the hour is Barry Soetoro and his peace agreement with Iran. Like Chamberlain, this effort at making peace, will end up bringing a curse (Gen 12:13) on the U.S., and definitely, no peace. Barry's chief advisor, Valerie Jarrett, comes from a communist family, was born in Iran, and is Muslim. That path is one leading to destruction. The path the U.S. is on, is not one leading to peace, even though Barry is conferring with the so called peace maker, the pope. As per Isaiah 22:25, the pope is going to "fall", and all hanging onto him will be "cut off". As for Barry, he is simply a fulfillment of Revelation 16, whereas he is one of the kings who has received one of the "spirits of demons", in order to help the nations gather against Jerusalem (Rev 16:14).
This is a matter of diplomacy and doesn't really change how the gospel works, but in your example you need to prove that greed is Barry's motivation. The prophet specifically says the perpetrators are motivated by greed, so greed brings whatever curse you are referring to. The words 'Peace' are not evil in themselves, and there's nothing wrong with working for peace in the Middle East and in Iran, trying to talk sense with people. If they do everything completely wrong but eliminate greed from their peace process, then they are winners.
 

KBC1963

Active Member
Shalom KBC, thank you again for your explanations. I think we may be looking at Elohim's plan in some what a similar fashion. To plainly explain it, Elohim created carnal man (Adam) to be against Him (sold into the slavery to commit sin by creating him/us FLESH-Romans 7:14), for the FLESH cannot and will not OBEY Elohim, it is impossible to do so (Romans 8:5-8). Then, at the APPOINTED time in the history of carnal man, He sent Yeshua to redeem us back from being sold into the slavery to sin.
Well I think I have to disagree with you on this one. Your wording places God in a bad light by implying that he set us up without a choice but to fail, which would mean we didn't have free will. When man the creature was formed from the dust of the ground he had no life, This is the carnal man who like all other natural creatures has instinct as part of it nature and none of the creatures are actually subjectible to God's laws because they don't have the intelligence to make those types of decisions, they operate on instinct. After man was formed God then breathed life into him or in effect gave a carnal creature a part of himself to rule the creature. Note that our bodies are not and never were our own;
1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own...
But, we do typically have the power to overrule the carnal side. If you did not have the carnal instinct of your body to influence you then of course it would be a lot easier to resist that which is considered sinful but, the carnal side was never meant to have the power to rule an intelligent mind. I base this rationale on these verses;
1 Corinthians 10:11Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
You see all of mankind has was able to and indeed did make a free choice to submit to what they were tempted by, look carefully at these verses;
Romans 6:12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

You see, people are being instructed to make a free will choice because the carnal creature is still there trying to influence their minds with its common temptations and the instructions being given here are that you are not to yield to it and not to let it reign in your carnal body. There would be no need for such instruction if indeed you were no longer being tempted after accepting Christ. I will also point out here that you could not sin either if there was no laws to transgress. So, in fact there are laws that still exist and there are still temptations from within, the difference now is that there is a new covenant / system in place that you can have faith in that will allow you to have hope for a continued existence even though you had been full of sin.....

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So, if you are not walking in the spirit / following the direction of the holy spirit with the intent to do God's will then the only thing you could be doing is giving in to the lusts of the flesh and sinning and I know this because it is written;

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Notice what is written about satan..... he was sinning from the beginning long before the law was ever given to the Jews and yet how could he possibly sin if there were no laws to transgress?
Now if someone believes they are saved and is still committing sins such as those sins named above then my question is "do you feel they are in fact saved"?

Ken Brown said:
This is the blessing He is sharing with us in TURNING us away from ALL our iniquities (Acts of the Apostles 3:26). We can look at it like how our immune system and inoculations works, we FIRST have to be exposed to a less deadly form of a disease (FLESHLY sin), so that we can be protected from the eternal disease (Spiritual sin), which cannot be cured. Our FLESHLY sin is what killed or sacrificed Yeshua and once we come to a knowledge of the Truth concerning this, we really only have one choice to make...flee from that sin, and no longer dwell therein. Elohim's plan is foolproof in teaching us to stop sinning, unless we truly prove to Him that we are WILLFUL transgressors (Galatians 2:18), and then the only outcome is what Hebrews 6:8 says. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

It was not our flesh that sinned.... it was our spirit that was temped by our flesh to sin and we yielded to it. My understanding is that God has provided us with examples of what sin is and he has promised to give us a helper (the holy spirit) to guide our choices if our full intent is to be like him and in this way we can resist the tempter and grow to be even as Christ is.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

God is not turning us away from sin, the holy spirit (helper) is simply there to advise us of what God wants and it comes down to our free choice to obey or not.




 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
You said that I was fulfilling a prophecy about 'peace peace when there is no peace' and the gospel was going to be finally settled by a war of physical weapons.

This is a matter of diplomacy and doesn't really change how the gospel works, but in your example you need to prove that greed is Barry's motivation. The prophet specifically says the perpetrators are motivated by greed, so greed brings whatever curse you are referring to. The words 'Peace' are not evil in themselves, and there's nothing wrong with working for peace in the Middle East and in Iran, trying to talk sense with people. If they do everything completely wrong but eliminate greed from their peace process, then they are winners.

Dear brick,
Again, you read according to your imaginations. The "nations" will be struck down with a "plague" (Zechariah 14:12). As for your "physical weapons", Zechariah also says "Judah also will fight at Jerusalem", which one could assume that as the Israelis have one of the best fighting forces in the world, that they would in fact use whatever weapons are available to them.

As for "greed" that is in reference to the "shepherds" (from the prophets to the priest)/Jer 6:13, who say "Peace, peace" (Jer 6:14). The sin of "the daughter of Zion" is "she keeps fresh her wickedness. Violence and destruction are heard in her:" (Jeremiah 6:7) As for the greedy "shepherds", they are best addressed in Isaiah 56:11," and they are shepherds who have no understanding; they have all turned to their own way, each on to his unjust gain, to the last one". As for Barry's motivation, it isn't greed, he is simply a product of a failed family, school drug use, bad and morally depraved friends and associates. Barry is simply nuts, while his supporters, for the most part, are looking for government hand outs, which he is quite willing to undercut the U.S. economy to happily supply. Barry's problem is more in the line of having no foundation, and an easy victim of the "unclean spirits like a frog" of Revelation 16:14.

The conclusion is if someone is declaring "peace, peace" when there is no peace. Don't listen to them. As with the "daughter of Zion", regardless of what her priest are telling her, she will have "disaster" brought on to her, "because they have not listened to My Words" (Jer 6:19)

A comparison in today's world would be the tares teachers, teaching that they will be "saved" from "disaster" by a "rapture", when in effect, they have not listened to "My words", and are heading for "disaster". (Mt 13)
 
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Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Again, you read according to your imaginations.
You skipped the word 'Greed', and I pointed it out. Just because you missed it doesn't mean I imagined it.
As for "greed" that is in reference to the "shepherds" (from the prophets to the priest)/Jer 6:13, who say "Peace, peace" (Jer 6:14). The sin of "the daughter of Zion" is "she keeps fresh her wickedness. Violence and destruction are heard in her:" (Jeremiah 6:7) As for the greedy "shepherds", they are best addressed in Isaiah 56:11," and they are shepherds who have no understanding; they have all turned to their own way, each on to his unjust gain, to the last one". As for Barry's motivation, it isn't greed, he is simply a product of a failed family, school drug use, bad and morally depraved friends and associates. Barry is simply nuts, while his supporters, for the most part, are looking for government hand outs, which he is quite willing to undercut the U.S. economy to happily supply. Barry's problem is more in the line of having no foundation, and an easy victim of the "unclean spirits like a frog" of Revelation 16:14.
It is in reference to greedy 'Shepherds' who were claiming there was peace, covering up the problems that their 'Sheep' were having. They were doing people wrong, much like ministers who hold fake miracle services today or politicians who betray their constituents.

The 'Frog' spirits which appear in chapter 16 of Revelation are part of the opening of the 'Sixth' bowl.

In Revelation there are seven churches, seven stars, seven lampstands, seven seals, seven trumps and seven bowls, seven of everything; and there are seven sevens. This is not a coincidence there being seven of everything, and its to let you know these are all the same things. All the stars are churches and part of one church, and the lampstands are also churches and stars. All the seals, bowls and trumpets are all part of the same thing. Just like the duel visions in the story of Joseph in Egypt are duel visions of one thing, John's dream is represented seven times. He dreams about the same things, and these are not time frames and not historical events.
  • 7 Churches
  • 7 Stars
  • 7 SevenLampstands
  • 7 Seals
  • 7 Bowls
  • 7 Trumpets
  • 7 Spirits of God
These are the sevens which all are the same seven, and seven is the number of patience. Only patience and long-suffering accomplishes God's goals. Physical violence is absolutely 100% out of the question.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
You skipped the word 'Greed', and I pointed it out. Just because you missed it doesn't mean I imagined it.

It is in reference to greedy 'Shepherds' who were claiming there was peace, covering up the problems that their 'Sheep' were having. They were doing people wrong, much like ministers who hold fake miracle services today or politicians who betray their constituents.

The 'Frog' spirits which appear in chapter 16 of Revelation are part of the opening of the 'Sixth' bowl.

In Revelation there are seven churches, seven stars, seven lampstands, seven seals, seven trumps and seven bowls, seven of everything; and there are seven sevens. This is not a coincidence there being seven of everything, and its to let you know these are all the same things. All the stars are churches and part of one church, and the lampstands are also churches and stars. All the seals, bowls and trumpets are all part of the same thing. Just like the duel visions in the story of Joseph in Egypt are duel visions of one thing, John's dream is represented seven times. He dreams about the same things, and these are not time frames and not historical events.
  • 7 Churches
  • 7 Stars
  • 7 SevenLampstands
  • 7 Seals
  • 7 Bowls
  • 7 Trumpets
  • 7 Spirits of God
These are the sevens which all are the same seven, and seven is the number of patience. Only patience and long-suffering accomplishes God's goals. Physical violence is absolutely 100% out of the question.

Dear brick,
The "unclean spirits" were to "go out to the kings of the world to gather them for the great judgment day of the lord" (Rev 16:14) which will happen per Zechariah 14:2 when they are gathered "against Jerusalem". That is happening as we speak. The "two days"/2000 years of Hosea 6:2 are coming to a close, and the day of judgment is coming whether you like it or not. "A third of mankind was killed" (Rev 9:18). This fire, smoke and brimstone, could be deemed as a violent action, but if you want to picture it as a peaceful transition, be my guest. The problem is that Jeremiah 6:14-15, says that those who say "Peace, peace" , will be among "those who fall".

As for your 7 churches, it appeared that few were in good standing, and only one seemed to making the grade. (Rev 2 & 3)
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Aleichem Shalom Ken,
You have no idea how happy I am to get a response from someone who, obviously, knows something about the Holy Scriptures. I love for someone to care about the truth t question me about what I said.
Ken, please reason about this, first. You know there are many scriptures in the Hebrew texts that speak about the coming of the Messiah, some say hundreds, I say at least dozens. Mathematicians say that Jesus, even fulfilling 10, and especially things such as his birth place, and his death, are an impossibility, Micah 5:2-4, Isaiah, the 53rd chapter. Jesus died on the Passover, the same date as the Jews left Egypt.
Now, if you read Jeremiah 31:31-34 you can definitely understand the The Mosaic Law Covenant was only an interim Covenant, not a permanent Covenant, but only until the Messiah would come, Galatians 3:21-26.
The curse of the Mosaic Covenant; Galatians tells us that everyone under the Law was under a curse, Galatians 3:10-14. The reason it was a curse is it condemned to death all who disobeyed the Law, Romans 6:23, 2Corinthians 6,7. He Bible states that if you could obey The Mosaic Law perfectly, you could live by it, but no human can or could obey the Law perfectly. Peter, Jew said the could not obey perfectly, Acts of the Apostles 15:1,2, 9-12. Remember it was not to Jews only that God would bless, but because of Abraham all nations would be blessed. Another thing, all these who are testifying to Jesus being the Messiah, were Jews, and there were thousands, even I the first century. All things were to be decided by two or three!!! Deuteronomy 19:15. Here you have hundreds of Jews, Apostles who received the powerful gifts of The Holy Spirit, which were not ever given to any who did not become Christians, Acts of the Apostles 2:1-4, 15-19, 22, Acts of the Apostles 4:9-13, Acts of the Apostles 5:29-32.
Another interesting point; the Jews, at the time that Jesus came were expecting the Messiah to come, that is why they thought that John the Baptist was the Messiah, Luke 3:15,16. The Jews knew it was time for the Messiah to come, because of the prophecy recorded at Daniel 9:24-27, The 70 weeks prophecy. Jesus came to be baptized exactly on the date of Daniels prophecy, 29CE. This is just one of the proofs that Jesus was really the Messiah.
The end of The Mosaic Law!! Consider Colossians 2:13,14. Consider Colossians 2:16,17 where we are told that the celebration of the Sabbath was no more, under the Law breaking the Mosaic Law, concerning the Sabbath was a death sentence, Exodus 31:13-17. Other scriptures that tell about the end of The Mosaic Law Covenant, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:6.
Jesus gave his life, and Jesus' blood was the basis of The New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death, Luke 22:19,20, 1Corinthians 11:23-26. The New Covenant superseded the Mosaic Law Covenant, and took force when Jesus died, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 9:15-22. Jesus fulfilled the whole Law at his death!!!
Matthew 5:18 says none of the Law would pass away until all things take place, Luke 24:44, John 19:30.
The term about the heavens and the earth passing away, was in reference to Revelation 21:1,2. The New earth and the New Heaven is speaking about the removal of Satan and his demons as the old earth, Ephesians 2:2, Revelation 12:9, John 16:11. The New earth will be the new conditions in the earth after Armageddon, when only righteous people will be alive.
Since we are not under The Mosaic Law Covenant, we are not required to obey any of its because it has ended. There are many parts of the Mosaic Covenant that were reiterated, and are also in the New Covenant.
The great difference is the basis on which the two Covenants were founded, the Mosaic on the blood of goats and Bulls, The New Covenant on the Precious blood of God's only begotten son, Hebrews 9:19-25, Hebrews 10:28,29, Hebrews 10:1-4, 14-18.
Who is under the Mosaic Law Covenant??? No person on earth is under The Mosaic law Covenant, it has been superseded by a New Covenant, a much better Covenant, one based on Jesus blood and written on hearts and NOT on stones 2 Corinthians 3:3,6,7-16.
The Mosaic Law Covenant was given ONLY to the Jews, Deuteronomy 4:5-8, Deuteronomy 5:1-3, Psalms 147:19,20.
No gentile was ever under the Mosaic Law, except a few proselytes, Romans 2:14.
No Jew is under The Mosaic Law Covenant, Romans 6:14,15, not even Paul a Jew and the foremost teacher of Christianity, 1Corinthians 9:20. Please meditate on these scriptures, and think about this, of the Messiah has not come yet, he must not be coming, for we are now in the last days of this old world, when Jesus will come as judge of the earth, Armageddon!!! Revelation 19:11-21.
Thanks for the tip about the scriptures!!!
Shalom Josh, I also appreciate someone who will use the Scriptures in making their beliefs known, thank you. But it's like many different areas of conflict, one see's their view, and another see's their point of view, and each using the same verses, thus making one twist and distort what was actually meant by the Scripture.

Take for example Colossians 2:16-17. Most think Paul is saying that any MAN can judge what THEY decide to eat and drink, and how to observe or not observe the Sabbath, Holy Day, or New Moons. How does that explanation of Paul compare to Acts of the Apostles 15:19-21, and Acts of the Apostles 21:24-25? Is Paul REALLY saying the decisions about eating and drinking, and what or how certain days are to be observed or not is really up to any man? And why would James make this comment, "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath,” if the command to observe the Sabbath is voluntary, so that any man could forsake the assembling together (Hebrews 10:25) by what most think Paul is saying in Colossians?

Another example is the "curse of the Law." Most think the Law is a curse, but how does that explanation compare to these Scriptures: Joshua 1:7-8, Nehemiah 9:13, and Romans 7:12. Most do not realize that WRITTEN into the Law is a curse, and the curse is the result of NOT confirming/fulfilling ALL of the words that are WRITTEN in the Law, to do them (Deuteronomy 27:26). So, to remove this curse, what must take place...the removing of the Law??, or confirming/fulfilling ALL that is WRITTEN in the Law?

Another example is "Jesus fulfilling the whole Law at his death." How does that allow for the Law/Moses requiring His resurrection (Acts of the Apostles 26:22-23), if the whole Law is fulfilled at His death? Wasn't He raised on the third day as WRITTEN by Moses (Luke 24:25-27, Luke 24:44-46), and was not the third day AFTER His death? So when most think "Jesus fulfilled the whole Law at His death," they really don't grasp or understand what was WRITTEN by Moses (John 5:46-47).

So Josh, as you can see, there can be another point of view when looking at and explaining what was WRITTEN in the Scriptures. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken. And you are welcome for the tips.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
The "unclean spirits" were to "go out to the kings of the world to gather them for the great judgment day of the lord" (Rev 16:14) which will happen per Zechariah 14:2 when they are gathered "against Jerusalem". That is happening as we speak.
Israel the country is under attack not merely under threat. Its a very poor fulfillment of the situation in Zechariah 14:2 if at all. The thing that has not been fulfilled which you long for is the return of a man, Jesus; but Zechariah 14:2 has already been fulfilled already more than once thousands of years ago, and it is merely a complex contrivance to hope that it is fulfilled again. Do not hope for that to happen to any city.
The "two days"/2000 years of Hosea 6:2 are coming to a close, and the day of judgment is coming whether you like it or not.
Hosea 6:5 says "Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets, I killed you with the words of my mouth— then my judgements go forth like the sun" So Hosea upholds the principle that its not by might or power just as Zechariah 4:6 says . Did you know this is 2015? The number of nations against Israel has been unchanged for the last ten or twenty years. The war against it has smouldered on and never stopped and is nothing like what happened in Zechariah 14. Do you think its more important to count days and try to guess who matches which prophecy or do you think it is more important to listen to what the prophets actually taught?
"A third of mankind was killed" (Rev 9:18). This fire, smoke and brimstone, could be deemed as a violent action, but if you want to picture it as a peaceful transition, be my guest.
You have good intentions, but you do not understand Revelation. It is a timeless work which describes not specific events. It is in the canon for people who live today and 1800 years ago and for those living 800 years from now and so on. Judgement is ongoing. Every person's works will be 'Judged by fire'. Any mention of 'Brimstone' should have clued you in to this, because judgement is part of a holy life. Anything you do that is not in Christ is of no effect. For example what if you get angry and punch Valerie Jarret in the nose? It won't change the nature of the world, but if you show compassion and long suffering then you do change the world. So the works are judged, and only the good ones are of any value. This is elementary material, so you should have known this about brimstone. You didn't? Now you do and are responsible for it.
The problem is that Jeremiah 6:14-15, says that those who say "Peace, peace" , will be among "those who fall".
The problem is that Jesus is coming on the clouds of heaven, and you don't want to accept it. Jeremiah 6 has very little in common with the current circumstances of our times, although there is ongoing war. There are no siege ramps around Jerusalem. Jerusalem is not a wicked place, and the Israelis in Jerusalem are not 'rejected silver' as you imply. In fact they have been upholding peace and refusing to attack Gaza and are welcoming to strangers. For what do you criticize them and apply this prophecy to them? The rights of foreigners are upheld. Slavery is illegal in Israel, and generally speaking its not a bad place. Its just in a bad location.
 
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