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The Taiwan Question

Is Taiwan Part of China?


  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
Lately, I've been extremely irritated by the view put forth by China that Taiwan is merely a 'province of China' and not an independent country. It has no basis in the reality, yet more and more people can been seen online advocating this view. Forget about the Palestinian recognition, that's well on its way; I suggest that the biggest statehood question that needs to be internationally tackled is that of the Taiwanese.

Some things to consider:

(1) Taiwan/R.O.C. is a fully sovereign state, which means that it runs its on administrative system of
municipalities, counties, etc., its own police organization, it runs its own armed forces (very powerful military, if I may add) and has its own political system. Most importantly, they actively deny that they fall under Beijing's rule. Worth noting is also the fact that while China is authoritarian, Taiwanese democracy is functioning and alive (though it was not so in past).

(2) China exercises zero control in the Taiwanese territory. The Chinese police, military, code of law or citizenship are all powerless in Taiwan. For example, the two states maintain separate passports, and one cannot move freely between the two, but rather, have to go through the standard border formalities.

(3) Most Taiwanese identify as Taiwanese, not Chinese. Furthermore, they wish to be recognized as independent nation by the global community.

China actively threatens other countries if they signal they'd like to recognize Taiwan / R.O.C. as a country.
However, for all intents and purposes, Taiwan is an independent state regardless. Its not part of China in any shape or form, and Beijing exercises about same level of influence over Taiwan as it does over United States (perhaps even more over the U.S., considering that they own so much of the American debt?). Why then, do the majority of world's countries continue whoring to the Chinese money and refuse to recognize Taiwan as an independent country?

Give me your thoughts.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Lately, I've been extremely irritated by the view put forth by China that Taiwan is merely a 'province of China' and not an independent country. It has no basis in the reality, yet more and more people can been seen online advocating this view. Forget about the Palestinian recognition, that's well on its way; I suggest that the biggest statehood question that needs to be internationally tackled is that of the Taiwanese.

Some things to consider:

(1) Taiwan/R.O.C. is a fully sovereign state, which means that it runs its on administrative system of
municipalities, counties, etc., its own police organization, it runs its own armed forces (very powerful military, if I may add) and has its own political system. Most importantly, they actively deny that they fall under Beijing's rule. Worth noting is also the fact that while China is authoritarian, Taiwanese democracy is functioning and alive (though it was not so in past).

(2) China exercises zero control in the Taiwanese territory. The Chinese police, military, code of law or citizenship are all powerless in Taiwan. For example, the two states maintain separate passports, and one cannot move freely between the two, but rather, have to go through the standard border formalities.

(3) Most Taiwanese identify as Taiwanese, not Chinese. Furthermore, they wish to be recognized as independent nation by the global community.

China actively threatens other countries if they signal they'd like to recognize Taiwan / R.O.C. as a country.
However, for all intents and purposes, Taiwan is an independent state regardless. Its not part of China in any shape or form, and Beijing exercises about same level of influence over Taiwan as it does over United States (perhaps even more over the U.S., considering that they own so much of the American debt?). Why then, do the majority of world's countries continue whoring to the Chinese money and refuse to recognize Taiwan as an independent country?

Give me your thoughts.
...

You know that "Taiwan" doesn't call itself that, right? It calls itself the Republic of China. And it claims sovereignty over China and only recently(as in 20 ****ing 12) relinquished claims on Mongolia.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
One thing to consider is that when the Nationalists fled to Taiwan, they did not see it as an independent state. They claimed to be the legitimate Chinese government and even held the chair representing China at the United Nations.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Lately, I've been extremely irritated by the view put forth by China that Taiwan is merely a 'province of China' and not an independent country. It has no basis in the reality, yet more and more people can been seen online advocating this view. Forget about the Palestinian recognition, that's well on its way; I suggest that the biggest statehood question that needs to be internationally tackled is that of the Taiwanese.

Some things to consider:

(1) Taiwan/R.O.C. is a fully sovereign state, which means that it runs its on administrative system of
municipalities, counties, etc., its own police organization, it runs its own armed forces (very powerful military, if I may add) and has its own political system. Most importantly, they actively deny that they fall under Beijing's rule. Worth noting is also the fact that while China is authoritarian, Taiwanese democracy is functioning and alive (though it was not so in past).

(2) China exercises zero control in the Taiwanese territory. The Chinese police, military, code of law or citizenship are all powerless in Taiwan. For example, the two states maintain separate passports, and one cannot move freely between the two, but rather, have to go through the standard border formalities.

(3) Most Taiwanese identify as Taiwanese, not Chinese. Furthermore, they wish to be recognized as independent nation by the global community.

China actively threatens other countries if they signal they'd like to recognize Taiwan / R.O.C. as a country.
However, for all intents and purposes, Taiwan is an independent state regardless. Its not part of China in any shape or form, and Beijing exercises about same level of influence over Taiwan as it does over United States (perhaps even more over the U.S., considering that they own so much of the American debt?). Why then, do the majority of world's countries continue whoring to the Chinese money and refuse to recognize Taiwan as an independent country?

Give me your thoughts.

If Taiwan becomes one of the Chinese state, then will the Taiwanese have equal rights similar
to the other Chinese states, IOW can a Taiwanese becomes the president of China if voted.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
One thing to consider is that when the Nationalists fled to Taiwan, they did not see it as an independent state. They claimed to be the legitimate Chinese government and even held the chair representing China at the United Nations.

This is a good thing to question, but Taiwan was never part of either CCP-ruled China nor KMT-ruled China until the end of World War Two. Indeed, Taiwan was part of Japan for half a century and was part of Japan for two decades before KMT/Republic of China even existed. Indeed, a case can be made that the Nationalist takeover of Taiwan from Japan was not necessarily in accordance with international law, as it had no bearing on that which had transpired over the course of ROC's existence, or the world war two in general.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
...

You know that "Taiwan" doesn't call itself that, right? It calls itself the Republic of China. And it claims sovereignty over China and only recently(as in 20 ****ing 12) relinquished claims on Mongolia.

Well, thats what the Kuomintang (KMT) political rhethoric is about. However, the Minjindang (DPP, Democratic Progressive Party) is expected to destroy KMT in presidential elections next year. DPP is also dominating the municipalities across Taiwan, and DPP is expected to relinquish the territorial claims that KMT has held stubbornly so far. DPP is also pro-independence and has talked about renaming the state as 'Republic of Taiwan'. Majority of ordinary Taiwanese, according to many polls, don't see themselves as Chinese.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
This is a good thing to question, but Taiwan was never part of either CCP-ruled China nor KMT-ruled China until the end of World War Two. Indeed, Taiwan was part of Japan for half a century and was part of Japan for two decades before KMT/Republic of China even existed. Indeed, a case can be made that the Nationalist takeover of Taiwan from Japan was not necessarily in accordance with international law, as it had no bearing on that which had transpired over the course of ROC's existence, or the world war two in general.

But it was recognized internationally. That is why Taiwan represented China as a whole on the UN.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
What I'm trying to say is that because of the recognition by others that the GMD were the legitimate ruling party of all China, the question of Taiwan's status now has become murky, to say the least.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
But it was recognized internationally. That is why Taiwan represented China as a whole on the UN.

This had to do more with Cold War politics between superpowers, than it had to do with what Taiwanese identity and status actually is. And that was during the Chiang-Kai Shek period. And Chiang-Kai Shek used 'white terror' to terrorize anyone who disagreed with what he was doing with Taiwan. There used to be dozens, perhaps hundreds of Japanese Shintō Shrines on Taiwan before the Kuomintang arrived; many Taiwanese spoke fluent Japanese and wore kimonos before the Kuomintang arrived. The Shintō shrines were destroyed, Japanese language was discouraged, descendants of Japanese people were expelled to Japan and Chinese cultural dogma imposed on the people.

The fact that Taiwanese still want independence as Taiwanese cultural entity, even after decades of cultural tyranny and social engineering by the Kuomintang, speaks volumes about whether they should be part of China or not.

Its also to good remember that China was not the first state to establish governance on Taiwan. The Dutch were.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Well, thats what the Kuomintang (KMT) political rhethoric is about. However, the Minjindang (DPP, Democratic Progressive Party) is expected to destroy KMT in presidential elections next year. DPP is also dominating the municipalities across Taiwan, and DPP is expected to relinquish the territorial claims that KMT has held stubbornly so far. DPP is also pro-independence and has talked about renaming the state as 'Republic of Taiwan'. Majority of ordinary Taiwanese, according to many polls, don't see themselves as Chinese.
There are a lot of legal issues involved in this, and to be frank, much of the problem is on the ROC/Taiwan side of the coin. The KMT for better...well, mostly for worse, defined Taiwan/Formosa as being an integral part of the Chinese nation.

For them(Taiwan) to declare they are no longer a part of China(regardless of government) would be seen by the PRC as trying to undermine their sovereignty.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
For them(Taiwan) to declare they are no longer a part of China(regardless of government) would be seen by the PRC as trying to undermine their sovereignty.

And not an advisable move at a time when the PRC feels more confident than ever at flexing their muscles in East Asia.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
This had to do more with Cold War politics between superpowers, than it had to do with what Taiwanese identity and status actually is.

Cold War politics really made a mess of the world. Unfortunately, our present reality is still deeply shaped by that ideological conflict.

And that was during the Chiang-Kai Shek period. And Chiang-Kai Shek used 'white terror' to terrorize anyone who disagreed with what he was doing with Taiwan. There used to be dozens, perhaps hundreds of Japanese Shintō Shrines on Taiwan before the Kuomintang arrived; many Taiwanese spoke fluent Japanese and wore kimonos before the Kuomintang arrived. The Shintō shrines were destroyed, Japanese language was discouraged, descendants of Japanese people were expelled to Japan and Chinese cultural dogma imposed on the people.

All true. Chiang was a fascist.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
There are a lot of legal issues involved in this, and to be frank, much of the problem is on the ROC/Taiwan side of the coin. The KMT for better...well, mostly for worse, defined Taiwan/Formosa as being an integral part of the Chinese nation.

For them(Taiwan) to declare they are no longer a part of China(regardless of government) would be seen by the PRC as trying to undermine their sovereignty.

Yes, definitely, KMT has been instrumental in putting the Taiwan Question into the murky waters where it is today (its also why its popularity has crashed to rock bottom among the young, more politically active Taiwanese, who favour the pro-independence and anti-Chinese reunification DPP). It is not unlike the question of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North) and the Republic of Korea (South): both claim ownership over the entire Korean peninsula de jure, but are widely recognized as two independent countries de facto. I don't see a good reason why this shouldn't be the case with Republic of China (Taiwan) and People's Republic of China (Mainland) as far as the international community is concerned.

The fact remains that Taiwan (ROC) is not mad at any country for recognizing it: it maintains diplomatic relations with the 20+ countries that recognize it. The only reason why the international community doesn't recognize ROC is because China threatens anyone from doing so.

EDIT: I feel like the term ROC is not appropriate to use. There are many people and political parties in contemporary Taiwan which hold that ROC and its constitution are an illegitimate political body on the Taiwanese soil. Also, when I was in Taiwan, nobody used 'Zhonghua' (China) or 'Zhonghua Minguo' (Republic of China) to refer to their country. Everyone, without exception, used the term 'Taiwan' and called themselves 'Taiwan-ren' (Taiwanese person).
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Voted "Yes", but this is not a strong opinion.

The conflict stems back to the end of the Chinese civil war and the founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949. Since the Revolution of 1911, China had been in turmoil as the "Republic of China" tried to keep control of the mainland. it's power was however limited by the number of local warlords and factions, including the Communists. A product of the 1911 revolution was the independence of Tibet (1912) and (Inner) Mongolia (1911). [Mongolia fell under Communist influence in 1924 at the end of the Russian Civil War, whilst Tibet was "incorporated" into China in 1951].

China went through enourmous turmoil during the civil war between the Nationalists and the Communists, and was then invaded by the Japanese (Manchuria was occupied in 1931, and Japan later was at war with China from 1937 to 1945). The Second World War ended with the Russians coming into from the North. This on the one hand led to the formation of "North" Korea, and on the other, the Russians armed Chinese communists in Manchuria (north east China). long story short- the Chinese were exhausted and so when the Chinese Red Army went on a rampage, there wasn't much resistence. The remaining nationalists fled to Tiawan, and with them the "Republic of China".

Much like North and South Korea, China and Tiawan have been seperate countries for over 60 years. They have different economic and political systems and cultures. In so far as they both have roots in the Chinese nation, as it was constituted in 1911 at the end of the Qing dynasty, they could be considered "one country". However, that would mean including both Mongolia and Tibet as part of China (along with the Ughurs who are an ethnic minority in the west of China) which would qualify not as a nation, but an Empire, so this is very fluid to say the least.

It depends very much on how you define a "nation" and how far it is defined by that share history. You could well argue that so much time has passed that they no longer share the same "national" identity. It is a Cold War relic. Based on that superfical reading of the history as a source for national identity, I'd say they are one nation with two systems (like Korea). The division is a political one over systems of government, rather than a cultural or ethnic one. the latter is generally how you'd define a "nation" but given how divergent the cultures may now be, and how "culture" is politicised in the People's Republic since Mao, you could go either way. There has not been a formal settlement with either party unifying or renouncing cliams to each others territory or recgonising their independence. it's a weird one.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Why then, do the majority of world's countries continue whoring to the Chinese money and refuse to recognize Taiwan as an independent country?

p.s. a more direct response to this is mainland China is simply more powerful. but you could look up the problems of China's representation on the UN security council; It was held by 'Tiawan'/Republic of China until 1971, when the Mainland/People's Republic took their place as "the only legitimate representative of China to the United Nations".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_2758
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I think better for Taiwan to be with China.
china-map.jpg
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
Voted "Yes", but this is not a strong opinion.

The conflict stems back to the end of the Chinese civil war and the founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949. Since the Revolution of 1911, China had been in turmoil as the "Republic of China" tried to keep control of the mainland. it's power was however limited by the number of local warlords and factions, including the Communists. A product of the 1911 revolution was the independence of Tibet (1912) and (Inner) Mongolia (1911). [Mongolia fell under Communist influence in 1924 at the end of the Russian Civil War, whilst Tibet was "incorporated" into China in 1951].

China went through enourmous turmoil during the civil war between the Nationalists and the Communists, and was then invaded by the Japanese (Manchuria was occupied in 1931, and Japan later was at war with China from 1937 to 1945). The Second World War ended with the Russians coming into from the North. This on the one hand led to the formation of "North" Korea, and on the other, the Russians armed Chinese communists in Manchuria (north east China). long story short- the Chinese were exhausted and so when the Chinese Red Army went on a rampage, there wasn't much resistence. The remaining nationalists fled to Tiawan, and with them the "Republic of China".

Much like North and South Korea, China and Tiawan have been seperate countries for over 60 years. They have different economic and political systems and cultures. In so far as they both have roots in the Chinese nation, as it was constituted in 1911 at the end of the Qing dynasty, they could be considered "one country". However, that would mean including both Mongolia and Tibet as part of China (along with the Ughurs who are an ethnic minority in the west of China) which would qualify not as a nation, but an Empire, so this is very fluid to say the least.

It depends very much on how you define a "nation" and how far it is defined by that share history. You could well argue that so much time has passed that they no longer share the same "national" identity. It is a Cold War relic. Based on that superfical reading of the history as a source for national identity, I'd say they are one nation with two systems (like Korea). The division is a political one over systems of government, rather than a cultural or ethnic one. the latter is generally how you'd define a "nation" but given how divergent the cultures may now be, and how "culture" is politicised in the People's Republic since Mao, you could go either way. There has not been a formal settlement with either party unifying or renouncing cliams to each others territory or recgonising their independence. it's a weird one.

I would have to disagree with this. It was the Japanese who created education system, proper administrative infrastructure and medical facilities and truly developed Taiwan to what it was during modernity. During Qing-dynasty Taiwan was not developed in almost any shape or form, and Qing-dynasty actually maintained what it called "internal foreign relations" with Taiwan. Taiwan has in this light never been an integral part of China.

However, the Taiwanese culture is for the most part Chinese culture. This is something that anyone should admit, irrespective of their standing on this issue. But, two countries sharing same culture and same language is not a reason to join those two countries. The differences between Taiwan and China are very similar to those between Britain, Australia and New Zealand.

And, for the purposes of this thread, I was trying to frame the question in the fashion of: is Taiwan part of PRC, as the PRC claims it is. 'China' was the wrong term, because that is broad as hell and includes various distinct governments all the way from Jin Dynasty to present day.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
I think better for Taiwan to be with China.
china-map.jpg

Based on what? At least now, their Taipei-based government caters to the needs of the islanders. The moment the central government is located in Beijing, the Taiwanese people will be at disadvantage. Even within China, the Central government pays more attention to certain provinces at the expense of others.

Don't get me started with the PRC's rampant corruption and authoritarianism. It serves Taiwanese no good whatsoever.

I'd think the Mainland Chinese would benefit more from being ruled by Republic of China / the contemporary Taiwan-based Kuomintang.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I would have to disagree with this. It was the Japanese who created education system, proper administrative infrastructure and medical facilities and truly developed Taiwan to what it was during modernity. During Qing-dynasty Taiwan was not developed in almost any shape or form, and Qing-dynasty actually maintained what it called "internal foreign relations" with Taiwan. Taiwan has in this light never been an integral part of China.

However, the Taiwanese culture is for the most part Chinese culture. This is something that anyone should admit, irrespective of their standing on this issue. But, two countries sharing same culture and same language is not a reason to join those two countries. The differences between Taiwan and China are very similar to those between Britain, Australia and New Zealand.

And, for the purposes of this thread, I was trying to frame the question in the fashion of: is Taiwan part of PRC, as the PRC claims it is. 'China' was the wrong term, because that is broad as hell and includes various distinct governments all the way from Jin Dynasty to present day.

I had to check this, but the cliam for Tiawan to be "Chinese" would have to go back to 1895 when the Chinese gave it to Japan. It was part of the mainland "China" from 1945-1949. I'm thinking of a comparision with demands for Corsican Indepndence from France, but really have no idea to how similar they are other than geography (Mainland vs. Island).

I don't have any objections to Taiwan independence, but its a question as to where the threshold is for saying these are seperates countries, or one country engaged in a protracted civil war between two governments. I still think of this as a civil war. The only [edit: logical] way to offically settle it would be a peace settlement or treaty of some sort.

A similar thing is happening on the Korean Peninsula, as many younger South Koreans don't see what the north has to do with them and so don't see them as one nation. The North continues to cliam the South however, much like the (People's Republic of) China cliams Tiawan.

So, I think its about how you go about invalidating the cliam to the territory beyond simply the existence of two seperate governments. But it does rely on saying, that inspite of being under japanese rule or the short duration of unity with the Chinese mainland, Mainland China can continue to cliam it. that is the weak point.
 

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
I had to check this, but the cliam for Tiawan to be "Chinese" would have to go back to 1895 when the Chinese gave it to Japan. It was part of the mainland "China" from 1945-1949. I'm thinking of a comparision with demands for Corsican Indepndence from France, but really have no idea to how similar they are other than geography (Mainland vs. Island).

I don't have any objections to Taiwan independence, but its a question as to where the threshold is for saying these are seperates countries, or one country engaged in a protracted civil war between two governments. I still think of this as a civil war. The only [edit: logical] way to offically settle it would be a peace settlement or treaty of some sort.

A similar thing is happening on the Korean Peninsula, as many younger South Koreans don't see what the north has to do with them and so don't see them as one nation. The North continues to cliam the South however, much like the (People's Republic of) China cliams Tiawan.

So, I think its about how you go about invalidating the cliam to the territory beyond simply the existence of two seperate governments. But it does rely on saying, that inspite of being under japanese rule or the short duration of unity with the Chinese mainland, Mainland China can continue to cliam it. that is the weak point.

This is such a convoluted and interesting topic. Probably the most complex political debacle of our time.

Well, Qing dynasty only took Taiwan over because the remnants of the Ming dynasty escaped there and created a holdout. After this, they kept the land, but greatly neglected it. Even though Qing dynasty ruled it for some over 200 years, and Japan for only 50 years, Japan put considerably more effort in developing what was virtually a wasteland back then and making Taiwan prosper. And the first administrative government on Taiwan was the Dutch colonial government, which although only 20 years long, did pre-date the Ming remnants who fled there.
If we go by the 'who was here first' rule, it would be either the Dutch or the Taiwanese Aboriginals that would get the 'First' title, depending on whether you count it from the first government or first presence.

Then there is the question that perhaps Qing government could make the claim on Taiwan; however, I don't feel that PRC government has a valid claim on it. Particularly when it justifies itself as an anti-imperialist, communist regime, I find it ironic that they justify their imperialist-nationalistic territorial ambitions based on the territories controlled by historical Imperial governments.

Also, I find the 'who was first' rationale increasingly useless. I used to subscribe to it in discussions pertaining to the Israeli-Palestine question, but have since realized that it is a fallacy. If the Palestinians want to have their own state, then they should have one. Who is to tell them otherwise? Same with the Taiwanese. They just don't want to be part of China, and China (both ROC and PRC) should respect that.

Regarding the Taiwanese opinion on the matter, here is a summary of a certain poll:

A February 2015 poll by the Taiwan Brain Trust polling organization shows that nearly 90 percent of the island’s population identify themselves as “Taiwanese” rather than “Chinese” if they were to choose between the two, and the percentage is even higher among those aged from 20 to 40. Only 2.5 percent of those aged 20 to 29 consider themselves Chinese. The percentage wanting nothing to do with China has been steadily growing as aging onetime mainlanders and their immediate offspring die off.
 
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