Dear brick,
Yeshua said per Mt 10:34," "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
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The Law
- Thread starter Mattithyah
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Dear brick,
Yeshua said per Mt 10:34," "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
You are suggesting by pulling this verse out of its context that if I start attacking people in the name of Jesus then that is what that verse means. That is not what the verse means. Clearly Jesus preaches peace, and clearly he often says things in an ironic way in order to teach something true. Since peace is his theme: peace with the Romans, peace with the gentiles, peace with God and peace upon Earth then it stands to reason that this is one of those moments. Do you deny the part of the gospels where the angels announce '...Peace on Earth good will towards men...'? I don't understand your violent approach to Jesus and why you would pick this portion of a portion of a portion of dialogue to make violence sound like a central dogma?
How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, “Your God reigns!” (Isaiah 52:7) Notice this parallels what the angels say to announce Jesus own birth "Glory to God in the Highest, peace in Earth, goodwill towards people."
"Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, who rely on horses, who trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen, but do not look to the Holy One of Israel, or seek help from the LORD." (Isaiah 31:1)
This also has parallels with following Torah which is itself choosing the path of peace. Murder is not allowed or even hate. I Samuel 2:4 in Hanna's song says "The bows of the warriors are broken, but those who stumbled are armed with strength." If they aren't armed with bows than with what strength do you suppose they are armed? You see we don't need Paul to tell us anything or to interpret this to mean that our battle is not physical. It is plain and obvious.
"Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, who rely on horses, who trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen, but do not look to the Holy One of Israel, or seek help from the LORD." (Isaiah 31:1)
This also has parallels with following Torah which is itself choosing the path of peace. Murder is not allowed or even hate. I Samuel 2:4 in Hanna's song says "The bows of the warriors are broken, but those who stumbled are armed with strength." If they aren't armed with bows than with what strength do you suppose they are armed? You see we don't need Paul to tell us anything or to interpret this to mean that our battle is not physical. It is plain and obvious.
Dear brick,
You are proclaiming peace when there is no peace. That is the essence of what Jer 6:14-15 is about.
As from your apparent quote from Luke 2:14, which is as stated by Luke, is a 3rd person statement (Luke 1:1-2) from unattributed witnesses, goes as follows:
"Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased."
According to this statement, the "peace" is limited to "men with whom he is pleased".
Not at all. That is a re-definition of 'Proclaim' by you, but because you bring it up I am looking right now at Jeremiah chapter 6.
This is not what I do. I do not ignore the situation of the Jews, nor of Christians nor of Muslims. I do not hide their wounds and do not pretend they are unharmed. I fully sympathize to the degree that I am able with the suffering of the Jews and wish they did not have to suffer, but suffer they have. Christians are suffering, particularly they are suffering like sheep with no shepherd. I do not ignore this. I am also not greedy for gain to my knowledge. I could easily start a church and make money, but have I done that? No I have not, because I have a shred of decency. Have you found me to be greedy for gain? Does Jeremiah think that I am? I don't think he's talking about me but about corrupt ministers who gather people to themselves, pass the plate and tell them lies. Don't you think that is who Jeremiah would be denouncing today? He would have no beef with me in that area.
Dear brick,
You seem to get easily side tracked by what ever is on your mind. I will quote Jeremiah 6:14-15 again. It talks of those who say "peace" when there is no "peace". And Jeremiah simply asks (?), "were they ashamed because of the abomination they have done? That is the end of it. There are many abominations "they" could have been cited for, but apparently they were cited for one abomination, and that was not one of yelling fire in a theatre, but of yelling "peace" when there was no peace. You are saying "peace" in the world, when the only peace quote you cite is for those God is pleased with (Luke 2:14). I am not thinking that God is pleased with the world as a whole.
14“They have healed the brokenness of My people superficially,
Saying, ‘Peace, peace,’
But there is no peace.
15“Were they ashamed because of the abomination they have done?
They were not even ashamed at all;
They did not even know how to blush.
Therefore they shall fall among those who fall;
At the time that I punish them,
They shall be cast down,” says the LORD.
The verse in question in Jeremiah talks of greedy people who use the word peace to ignore the suffering of the LORD's people. I do not. Jesus comments much later that greed is the roots of all kinds of evil. Greed gets prominence in many Bible passages, and in Judaism it is considered to be a sin. Jesus himself preaches peace. Revelation says that the saints must be patient and endure, but that is a far cry from ignoring their suffering for greedy purposes. None of it justifies treating the book Revelation as a representation of waypoints in a plan of History (and you are way out there on a flying saucer when you do that). Revelation is not that at all but instead is a discussion of things taking place immediately in John's own lifetime, and we can use it as encouragement but not as a prognostication.
Jesus advocated peaceful resistance. That is all I mean. He's not for taking up arms. I do not mean to imply that God is pleased with the violence on the Earth or that nothing should change. Give somebody the benefit of the doubt sometime.
KBC1963
Active Member
Understand and agree. No one can become righteous of their own will or works.
AgreedKen Brown said:
You have hit the right point!!!! "and no longer dwell in deliberate sin" This is the key to my entire point. Sin can still be done by us and since sin is the transgression of God's laws it means that God's laws have not only continued on and have been included in the new covenant they have been magnified;Ken Brown said:
Isaiah 42:21-22 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; He will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
Here is a site that words my intent very closely;
The Spirit of the Law
In Old Testament times God only required a physical, mechanical and visible obedience. In other words, obedience in the letter. In New Testament times, God has required much more. He wants us to follow Him to the spiritual limits of His Law. That's what Christ's ministry was to teach and demonstrate.
To be sure we understood this new, magnified style of law keeping, Jesus Christ gave some vivid examples. In Matthew 5:21, He said, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time (Old Testament times], Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you [here comes the new, magnified application), That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca [vain fellow], shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Christ said — magnifying the Law in its spiritual intent — that if you even hate your brother you are a murderer! Does that sound like Christ was doing away with the Law? And John — the "apostle of love" — said the same thing! (I John 3:15.) Whoever hates his brother is guilty of murder.
In verses 27 and 28 of the same chapter (Matt. 5), Christ said, 'Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you [here again comes the magnified approach), That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
Rather than being done away with, we find the influence of the Law extended to include our intent, thoughts and attitudes! God's. Commandments are magnified in scope and His love is expressed through keeping them in their spirit and intent as well as the letter. And so we see the ancient prophecy of Isaiah fulfilled and the Law indeed magnified and made honorable!
http://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/get/hwa.cgi?action=getmagazine&InfoID=1328970842
Ken Brown said:
Here again you have hit a correct point!!! Christ's sacrifice becomes our offering for our sins instead of the old method of animal sacrifice.
however, there are many who believe that once they believe they are saved then they can knowingly commit further sins or transgress God's laws with impunity. Few realize that the helper or God's holy spirit when it is given to a true believer is there to do just what it is described to do -help- you follow God's spiritual intent of his laws, the magnified laws. This is where your intent becomes a pivotal point in the process. If your intent is to follow God and perform as he desires you to do them then, when you are made aware of your errors you can approach Christ to be covered for your sins. However, if you go out each week and knowingly keep committing the same sins then why should Christ be expected to keep being crucified to cover your same sins over and over again?
Here is a good example. You are driving by my house and you hit my dog. I come out and give you a free gift of forgiveness.... now the next week you do it again and then the next week after you do it again etc. Do you suppose that I should be expected to keep giving that same free gift seeing as how you are knowingly doing it even after you have come to understand that it is wrong to hit my dog?
God is by all means willing to help us to achieve the goal by not only forgiving our past sins but he is also willing to give us a live in helper to help us keep on the path "if that is our intent". If as is believed by many that once you are forgiven you can no longer sin because you are not under the law any more then how could one possibly fall away?
Philippians 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
You see Paul already believes in Christ and has the free gift but, he knows that he must deal with the rest of his life and work with the holy spirit to attain the goal. Notice also how Paul describes the working of the holy spirit to reveal things to you in order for you to make the right decisions according to your intent.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
But animal sacrifice was a part of the Law, so how can one both say the Law was/is important but then they ignore much of it? For gentiles, it's a non-issue since the Law is not mandated for them, but for Jews it is. Since I think we can safely assume that most Christians are not Jews, some of the Law at least is just an option.
Dear brick,
You are confusing Yeshua with Ghandi. Where is the resistance in "do not resist him who is evil", "if any one wants to sue you, and take your shirt, let him have your coat also", whomever shall force you to go one mile, go with him two".(Mt 5) The kingdom of heaven is power and spirit, and it's battles are not fought with swords of steel, but they are fought nonetheless. The setting up of the kingdom of God on earth, on the other hand, has taking up arms, "Judah will also fight at Jerusalem" in the day that "the lord will go forth and fight against those nations"...."against Jerusalem". (Zechariah 14:2-14) This battle fought by the lord and Judah will not be a battle without casualties. (Zech 14:12)
According to you we are peaceful for thousands of years and then suddenly break out with physical weapons. It appears that you do not believe anything can be accomplished through patience and longsuffering, that it must be by might and by power rather than by the spirit. Do you understand what I am hearing from you? I am hearing that you don't believe that peace is God's weapon, that we have been waiting 2000 years for no reason at all. We're just waiting for...uh...the right number of people to join up. You don't see peace as something that you do but as something you are given. This is tragically far away from the principles of the Torah and of Jesus. How do you think the LORD fights? Do you think that the LORD fights with fists? Those methods are all ineffective. They just kill people and don't accomplish anything permanent. What do you think you are reading when you read about the LORD going into battle? When does the LORD ever shown up with guns blazing to save the Jews physical lives? Never. Nobody shows up, and nobody ever saves them. They just get killed over and over, and then they have to have funerals. The parents live with the sorrow of the deaths of their children. That is the LORD doing battle through them. You don't value that when you say that the LORD has to come here with weapons in order to set up a kingdom. You think that all of their deaths are meaningless.
If the setting up of this kingdom on Earth could be done through force that would just empty it of its meaning. It would be like if a computer programmer used paper and told you it was email. It would be denying that email had any advantage over paper mail, just as setting up a kingdom through warfare denies that God's kingdom has any value. What would be the point of such a kingdom established through war? I guess it would also be kept peaceful at the point of a spear. There would be nothing divine about that.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I do believe that Jesus taught that the use of deadly force is wrong, and this is based on multiple verses. In the very early church, the disciples were not allowed to join the military, and dying to peacefully help the suffering of others was considered an honor, which had the effect of attracting so many to its cause.
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Shalom KCB, I really do appreciate what you have written here. I can see that on the surface we are not that far apart, but I would like to ask you if you have an opinion on WHY the carnal man (natural man-Adam) was FIRST, and not the Spiritual Man. It is obvious that you believe it takes the Spirit for any righteousness to occur, so why didn't Elohim start out with the Spiritual Man, instead of the carnal/natural man with His plan:
1 Corinthians 15:45-49
(45) So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(46) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
(47) The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
(48) As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
(49) Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
And two related questions.
1. Why did Elohim consign or shut up ALL in disobedience (Romans 11:32).
2. Why did Elohim subject an unwilling creation to moral depravity (G3153) - Romans 8:20.
Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew
Dear brick,
As for what you say "I am hearing" as usual is what you want to hear. Zechariah 14:3 states, "Then the lord will go forth and fight against those nations". As to how he will fight, "Now this will be the plague with which the lord will strike all the people who have gone to war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, etc." (Zechariah 14:12)
Dear metis,
Yeshua said, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Mt 10:24)
Do you know that Zechariah is first of all talking about Israel's situation where they are surrounded by enemies in his time? If it had not been fulfilled, then they would have killed Zechariah and tossed his writings in the garbage. The prophecy first of all is specifically about Hadrak king of Damascus and a few others. What happened in that situation? Their eyes did not rot out of their sockets, yet the prophecy was fulfilled or Zechariah would be a false prophet. You are insisting that the LORD is violent, prefers disgusting and cruel punishments and that the prophecy was also not fulfilled, and you are tying Zechariah into knots to do it.
First you think that the LORD fights with swords, completely ignoring context whenever it is relevant and then you pull this weird stuff, tying Zechariah into knots. You say that because I recognize the (clear) preaching of Jesus about peace that I am in abominations and 'Falling with the falling'! You claim that peace (which is hard to accomplish) is man's way; but war (which is easy) is God's way of accomplishing things.
I have pointed out that even Revelation which you have mistakenly used as a foundational doctrinal text, even that book points out the Jesus sword is the sword of his mouth. Ignoring that, you proceed to say that he will use an iron bar as a weapon, completely ignoring the context of Revelation about longsuffering. You also ignore that Jesus is not present with us, and the gospel writers say he won't return until everything is already finished. No, but he must return to make war you say!
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Metaphor.
Dear brick,
As usual, you seem to perceive that which is already a preconception in your mind. Yeshua will rule with a rod of iron. This is in reference to how "the nations" will be ruled..(Rev 2:27/Psalms 2:9)
Revelation 2:27 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father;
And of course you have not shown the clear "preaching of Jesus about peace". You used apparently a quote from Luke which gave peace to those who found favor with God. He showed a path in how to follow that path, but it apparently has been ignored, for there is no peace.
As for Zechariah's 14 message, it was not about the house of Israel and Damascus, but of Judah and Jerusalem. Israel remains "scattered among the nations" at this time (Joel 3:2). And per Zechariah 14, the nations have yet to go to Jerusalem each year, and keep the "Feast of Booths".
Here is what a rod of iron is all about. Its a rod that doesn't change its length! There will be justice, and the implication is that peace will be based on justice rather than upon weapons, hence it will be based upon the Torah. He's prophesying to Jews that Torah is very important. That has always been the theme of these post-Babylonian prophets. They always insist "Keep the Torah" and always give lots of reasons why its important. Rulers have a 'Rod', because they set values for things such as basic lengths, calendars, weights etc. A king 'Metes' out justice. This king's justice will be the Torah, a thing that never changes, thus it is a rod of iron.
First, the passage you keep quoting is also in Luke where it says "I have not come to bring peace but division." This is the division between the righteous and the unrighteous. It has nothing to do with attacking anyone with weapons.
I gave a quotation of Acts where it is called the 'Gospel of peace'. You could say that is talking about peace between God and the gentiles. It would not be wrong to say that. Nor have I implied that peace has been established already, physically. One of the strange things about Jesus ministry is that he says John the Baptist is Elijah, and from there he diverges completely from physical reality in his discussions of the Kingdom of God. He talks about it like its everywhere, just as Elijah talks about the LORD's invisible armies that nobody else can see. He proclaims that the kingdom has arrived when very clearly, physically and politically all the Jews are under the thumb of the Roman Empire at its height. Many are slaves of Rome. Many are executed. I hope you already take this into consideration when you read Jesus preaching and the counter intuitive message he brings. Its not a message of uprising but of acceptance. You would say probably tell him he was preaching peace when there was no peace, because that is what you said to me, completely taking some text out of its context.
- to shine on those living in darkness
and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the path of peace. (Luke 1:79) - Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other. (Mark 9:50)
- If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. (Luke 10:6)