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Christians Only: Explaining the Trinity

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It seems to me anyway that the main point of contention between Christianity, Islam and Judaism ( and to be fair, some types of Christianity) is the Concept of the Trinity. I would like to see an explanation for the Trinity that does not look like it is teaching more than one God.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Bunch of highly opinionated stuff follows: It depends upon whose trinity it is. To understand its original purpose keep in mind that Christians believed God was everywhere in everything. The reasoning behind the Trinity derives from Plato, so you'd have to study the Greek philosophers and then also the writings of Jerome and Augustine. This I have not done myself, but the idea of Philosophy was originally to derive true information starting from a small set of truths or axioms. I think the early Christians went on a search to find all kinds of truth about God, believing that God's glory was everywhere all over the world to be gathered from under every rock and spreading leaf; so they naturally became interested in Greek philosophy. Philosophy was a systematic search for ultimate truths and even today is the basis for the subject called 'Logic'. The interest in philosophy (among Christians) began to show about 200AD when they really got serious about it and began to write and work their minds and converse with non-Christian philosophers. They learned with excitement and many thought experiments, but about 2 centuries later they begin to use philosophical terms to argue for the existence of God. There was a shift towards using philosophy as an apologetic for the Christian faith and church. Its from that very long history of philosophy plus apologetic that we really get the Trinity. I think that Plato is where many of the ideas about the Trinity come from, and people began to see his philosophically derived ideas as a kind of shadow or mirror of Jesus the Son, God the Father and the Holy Spirit, but what was a philosophical attempt to derive truths about the nature of God was changed into something else that I don't agree with, mainly because the churches fell into the very common trap of arguing about influence and authority. That ruined things very quickly, allowed politicians to get involved in the dialogue...

Long story short...there is no brief and satisfactory answer.
 

arthra

Baha'i
I would like to see an explanation for the Trinity that does not look like it is teaching more than one God.

Abdul-Baha the Eldest Son of Baha'u'llah was asked about the trinity and this was His explanation:

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality -- that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes -- became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied -- for the Sun is one -- but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, "The Father is in the Son," meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.


~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 112
 

Logikal

Member
It seems to me anyway that the main point of contention between Christianity, Islam and Judaism ( and to be fair, some types of Christianity) is the Concept of the Trinity. I would like to see an explanation for the Trinity that does not look like it is teaching more than one God.

The terms Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three distinct time periods THAT reference THE SAME BEING. It is not the case that the terms were used at the same time. God the creator of everything is the FATHER because he created things. The term FATHER is being used as a metaphor of course. Jesus, the only begotten SON OF GOD is the FATHER in the form of a HUMAN BEING. If one recalls in the Bible there was a time where the Jews asked God for a KING like THEM. For the Jews could not relate to such a superior intelligence and force. This prayer came true later of course in Jesus being a HUMAN MODEL having NO HUMAN MOTHER and DIRECTLY Formed by God in Mary. No God did not have SEX with Mary. Jesus being born in this way is a MIRACLE and provides a way for HUMANS to connect to GOD directly. Let me make clear the confusion people make: God is not a HUMAN BEING; God's spirit was in the BODY of JESUS. There is a difference. Islam rejects a HUMAN can be GOD; and rightfully so they are correct. Basically Jesus was not HUMAN like you or me: we have two HUMAN parents. Jesus was more like a PUPPET (like I used MODEL earlier) in reality. This is demonstrated in that Jesus did not know certain things and was capable of DYING. If a human were GOD himself it would be impossible to kill him. Ask any Muslim and they will say the same thing about this part. What I am saying is there were times where God removed HIS SPIRIT and those were the weakest points of Jesus's life such as he was not aware of certain things and seemed a bit fallible. The same is true with US: God's spirit can be in us and we function perfectly in God's WILL. The times we misbehave are the times God's Spirit leaves: for God can not co-exist in a dirty vessel for long. HUMANS have a SIN-NATURE which is not a VERB. Emotional people and literal readers think of SIN as an action --a VERB-- that you do to upset God. That has some truth but is too vague when used only in that way. Sin nature is a NOUN and expresses that we are born to do things CONTRARY to GOD and it is OUR job (yours, and mine) to get to know GOD and function in our purpose. A new born has no idea about a GOD. This clearly has to be taught. But how it is taught makes the difference. Once certain concepts are understood a person can grow to know GOD. All human beings had sinned and continued to sin as long as they were alive. Anyone who says otherwise is LYING. Jesus did not have the SIN-NATURE because he was implanted in MARY by GOD. That baby (the skeleton structure) was then used to house the Spirit of GOD because it was PURE. So the baby Jesus is half human objectively and similar to us in many ways. He had his own thoughts! He was a person! But God's spirit worked through Jesus as if God himself was HERE. Hence all persons have SPIRITS. Jesus had a spirit, you have a spirit, etc. God is a spirit and Jesus was HIS BODY (the puppet) GOD manipulated in a unique way --like no OTHER! Jesus had no sin nature and only that scenario allows for someone else to pay for your short comings-- SIN. The wage of SIN is DEATH. Thus this is why our body die and breakdown physically as we age. Jesus paying the price for all who believe in HIM can relate to GOD now and not need for anything else like a priest, prayer cloths, etc. No human can do what jesus did--end of story. You couldn't even if you tried. Catholics tend to get this wrong: they actually buy you CAN keep the commandments or else God would not have given them. (hehe.) Jesus was the ONLY one to have EVER kept every single commandment because he HAD NO SIN NATURE. The catholics miss the point you have to come to GOD to fulfill your purpose and obey rules is not ENOUGH. It HELPS out A LOT but you still miss the relationship of FATHER and Child God wants. The Law was to make things better not to make YOU PERFECT. The time Jesus DIED was the time God withdrew his SPIRIT from the BODY of Jesus; hence that is WHY he physically died. No dead people have Spirits still in them! Jesus's Spirt DIED and was resurrected in the same body and GOD's SPIRIT also came back into that same body. Thus the spirit of Jesus is on the RIGHT hand of the FATHER. The point clearly is that God's spirit intertwined with Jesus's spirit and thought of as one. Objectively they are distinct but are so close in relation they are hard to speak about one without mentioning the other. This goes into the division of spirit and soul as well. The sprit and soul are not the same. God can distinguish them, humans not so much. The Holy Ghost is the part of God that is alive in the world today under a NEW COVENANT. The Old testament God was way more strict and brutal. for there was no savior in the world at that time so God had to do violent things. The savior prevents God from wiping out human beings all together and gives rise to MERCY and people have more chances (likened to a child time out instead of a whooping). The Holy Ghost is a spirit that is said to reside in the heart and mind of a human. It is the HG that gives you the feeling "there is something wrong" or guilt even before you do something stupid you know you were not supposed to do. The HG is the TEACHER or intuition that guides your mind and your mind controls your actions. Thus if you operate in the HG it is impossible to sin. No one is on the level of this 24/7.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Abdul-Baha the Eldest Son of Baha'u'llah was asked about the tri. ty and this was His explanation:

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality -- that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes -- became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied -- for the Sun is one -- but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, "The Father is in the Son," meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.


~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 112
Thank you for that friend. Beautifully articulated view. Better explanation than most Christians I have heard including myself. :)
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The terms Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three distinct time periods THAT reference THE SAME BEING. It is not the case that the terms were used at the same time. God the creator of everything is the FATHER because he created things. The term FATHER is being used as a metaphor of course. Jesus, the only begotten SON OF GOD is the FATHER in the form of a HUMAN BEING. If one recalls in the Bible there was a time where the Jews asked God for a KING like THEM. For the Jews could not relate to such a superior intelligence and force. This prayer came true later of course in Jesus being a HUMAN MODEL having NO HUMAN MOTHER and DIRECTLY Formed by God in Mary. No God did not have SEX with Mary. Jesus being born in this way is a MIRACLE and provides a way for HUMANS to connect to GOD directly. Let me make clear the confusion people make: God is not a HUMAN BEING; God's spirit was in the BODY of JESUS. There is a difference. Islam rejects a HUMAN can be GOD; and rightfully so they are correct. Basically Jesus was not HUMAN like you or me: we have two HUMAN parents. Jesus was more like a PUPPET (like I used MODEL earlier) in reality. This is demonstrated in that Jesus did not know certain things and was capable of DYING. If a human were GOD himself it would be impossible to kill him. Ask any Muslim and they will say the same thing about this part. What I am saying is there were times where God removed HIS SPIRIT and those were the weakest points of Jesus's life such as he was not aware of certain things and seemed a bit fallible. The same is true with US: God's spirit can be in us and we function perfectly in God's WILL. The times we misbehave are the times God's Spirit leaves: for God can not co-exist in a dirty vessel for long. HUMANS have a SIN-NATURE which is not a VERB. Emotional people and literal readers think of SIN as an action --a VERB-- that you do to upset God. That has some truth but is too vague when used only in that way. Sin nature is a NOUN and expresses that we are born to do things CONTRARY to GOD and it is OUR job (yours, and mine) to get to know GOD and function in our purpose. A new born has no idea about a GOD. This clearly has to be taught. But how it is taught makes the difference. Once certain concepts are understood a person can grow to know GOD. All human beings had sinned and continued to sin as long as they were alive. Anyone who says otherwise is LYING. Jesus did not have the SIN-NATURE because he was implanted in MARY by GOD. That baby (the skeleton structure) was then used to house the Spirit of GOD because it was PURE. So the baby Jesus is half human objectively and similar to us in many ways. He had his own thoughts! He was a person! But God's spirit worked through Jesus as if God himself was HERE. Hence all persons have SPIRITS. Jesus had a spirit, you have a spirit, etc. God is a spirit and Jesus was HIS BODY (the puppet) GOD manipulated in a unique way --like no OTHER! Jesus had no sin nature and only that scenario allows for someone else to pay for your short comings-- SIN. The wage of SIN is DEATH. Thus this is why our body die and breakdown physically as we age. Jesus paying the price for all who believe in HIM can relate to GOD now and not need for anything else like a priest, prayer cloths, etc. No human can do what jesus did--end of story. You couldn't even if you tried. Catholics tend to get this wrong: they actually buy you CAN keep the commandments or else God would not have given them. (hehe.) Jesus was the ONLY one to have EVER kept every single commandment because he HAD NO SIN NATURE. The catholics miss the point you have to come to GOD to fulfill your purpose and obey rules is not ENOUGH. It HELPS out A LOT but you still miss the relationship of FATHER and Child God wants. The Law was to make things better not to make YOU PERFECT. The time Jesus DIED was the time God withdrew his SPIRIT from the BODY of Jesus; hence that is WHY he physically died. No dead people have Spirits still in them! Jesus's Spirt DIED and was resurrected in the same body and GOD's SPIRIT also came back into that same body. Thus the spirit of Jesus is on the RIGHT hand of the FATHER. The point clearly is that God's spirit intertwined with Jesus's spirit and thought of as one. Objectively they are distinct but are so close in relation they are hard to speak about one without mentioning the other. This goes into the division of spirit and soul as well. The sprit and soul are not the same. God can distinguish them, humans not so much. The Holy Ghost is the part of God that is alive in the world today under a NEW COVENANT. The Old testament God was way more strict and brutal. for there was no savior in the world at that time so God had to do violent things. The savior prevents God from wiping out human beings all together and gives rise to MERCY and people have more chances (likened to a child time out instead of a whooping). The Holy Ghost is a spirit that is said to reside in the heart and mind of a human. It is the HG that gives you the feeling "there is something wrong" or guilt even before you do something stupid you know you were not supposed to do. The HG is the TEACHER or intuition that guides your mind and your mind controls your actions. Thus if you operate in the HG it is impossible to sin. No one is on the level of this 24/7.
Thank you. Thats the kind of stuff I am looking for.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Re: the Trinity, my understanding is that it isn't three separate gods, of course...but rather One God...revealed in three different personas. (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

Your ^ above ^ understanding of the Triad is not alone, as many others have been taught that.

In Scripture, both God and Jesus are always in the masculine, whereas God's spirit is used in the neuter as 'it' or 'itself '.
- KJV at Numbers 11:17 and Numbers 11:25 God's spirit is in the neuter 'it'.
- KJV at Romans 8:16; Romans 8:26 God's spirit is in the neuter 'itself'.
Greek grammar allows for a neuter to be used in the masculine.
That is also true in English in that a neuter car or ship sometimes is called a 'she' but still remains a neuter it.

Also, according to Scripture, God has No Creator, No Father, No Mother - Psalms 90:2 - God had No beginning.
Whereas, according to gospel writer John, Jesus had a start as the beginning of the creation by God. - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14
So, Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
Jesus is referred to as ' wisdom personified ' starting at Proverbs 8:22. The one speaking there is said to be created.

Also, can we see God and live ? _______ People saw Jesus and lived. - John 1:18; John 6:46; 1 John 4:12; Exodus 33:20
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
DeidreLogical 4476470 said:
Re: the Trinity, my understanding is that it isn't three separate gods, of course...but rather One God...revealed in three different personas. (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
Hello Deidre! Logickal and Arthur gave IMHO two of the best descriptions I have heard (or read) concerning this topic.:)
 

Logikal

Member
Your ^ above ^ understanding of the Triad is not alone, as many others have been taught that.

In Scripture, both God and Jesus are always in the masculine, whereas God's spirit is used in the neuter as 'it' or 'itself '.
- KJV at Numbers 11:17 and Numbers 11:25 God's spirit is in the neuter 'it'.
- KJV at Romans 8:16; Romans 8:26 God's spirit is in the neuter 'itself'.
Greek grammar allows for a neuter to be used in the masculine.
That is also true in English in that a neuter car or ship sometimes is called a 'she' but still remains a neuter it.

Also, according to Scripture, God has No Creator, No Father, No Mother - Psalms 90:2 - God had No beginning.
Whereas, according to gospel writer John, Jesus had a start as the beginning of the creation by God. - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14
So, Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
Jesus is referred to as ' wisdom personified ' starting at Proverbs 8:22. The one speaking there is said to be created.

Also, can we see God and live ? _______ People saw Jesus and lived. - John 1:18; John 6:46; 1 John 4:12; Exodus 33:20
Literally speaking Jesus was NOT GOD, but God's spirit operated in Jesus like no OTHER PERSON. Jesus was UNIQUE and we can never equal HIM. The spirit that operated in Jesus was GOD which means the spirit of Jesus was mixed with the Spirit of GOD: kind of making them ONE. So you are not directly looking at GOD the spirit but the BODY God is HOUSED in. Similar to the image in the mirror other people have stated.
I am curious sir, what does you Bible say in 1 John chapter 1 verse 1? What about John 1 verse 1? The context surely makes spirit in Jesus and apart of Jesus before humans.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Literally speaking Jesus was NOT GOD, but God's spirit operated in Jesus like no OTHER PERSON. Jesus was UNIQUE and we can never equal HIM. The spirit that operated in Jesus was GOD which means the spirit of Jesus was mixed with the Spirit of GOD: kind of making them ONE. So you are not directly looking at GOD the spirit but the BODY God is HOUSED in. Similar to the image in the mirror other people have stated.
I am curious sir, what does you Bible say in 1 John chapter 1 verse 1? What about John 1 verse 1? The context surely makes spirit in Jesus and apart of Jesus before humans.

Please notice the letter 'a' is Not inserted at John 1:1 whereas at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B the letter ' a ' is used although the same Greek grammar ruler applies at both verses. The apostles did Not have the English KJV Bible.
Jesus was Not with himself but with another at John 1:1. Jesus was Not before the beginning - John 1:2. Only God was ' before ' the beginning. -Psalms 90:2. Who is the one God mentioned at 1 Corinthians 8:6 __________ and who is the one Lord________

At KJV Psalms 110:1 there are two (2) LORD/Lord's mentioned.
One LORD is in all upper-case letters
The other Lord is in some lower-case letters
The Tetragrammaton only ever applies to the LORD in all capital letters
Whereas the Lord, Not in all capital letters, applies to Jesus.

Gospel writer John wrote Revelation. John wrote that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God - Revelation 3:14
Gospel writer John also wrote that No man has seen God at any time - John 1:18; 1 John 4:12 - people saw Jesus.
Gospel writer John wrote that for the record ( bear record ) Jesus is the Son at John 1:34
Gospel writer John wrote that Nathanael believed Jesus to be Son at John 1:49
Gospel writer John wrote that Peter as spokesman for the 12 believed Jesus to be Son at John 6:68-69
Gospel writer John wrote that Jesus said that his Father is greater than all at John 10:29
Gospel writer John wrote that Jesus himself said he is Son in reply to the Jews at John 10:36
Gospel writer John wrote that Martha believed Jesus to be Son at John 11:27
Gospel writer John wrote that Jesus believed his Father is greater than Jesus at John 14:28
Gospel writer John wrote that he concluded that Jesus is the Son at John 20:31
Gospel writer John wrote that the heavenly Jesus still has a God over him at Revelation 3:12
 

Logikal

Member
Please notice the letter 'a' is Not inserted at John 1:1 whereas at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B the letter ' a ' is used although the same Greek grammar ruler applies at both verses. The apostles did Not have the English KJV Bible.
Jesus was Not with himself but with another at John 1:1. Jesus was Not before the beginning - John 1:2. Only God was ' before ' the beginning. -Psalms 90:2. Who is the one God mentioned at 1 Corinthians 8:6 __________ and who is the one Lord________

At KJV Psalms 110:1 there are two (2) LORD/Lord's mentioned.
One LORD is in all upper-case letters
The other Lord is in some lower-case letters
The Tetragrammaton only ever applies to the LORD in all capital letters
Whereas the Lord, Not in all capital letters, applies to Jesus.

Gospel writer John wrote Revelation. John wrote that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God - Revelation 3:14
Gospel writer John also wrote that No man has seen God at any time - John 1:18; 1 John 4:12 - people saw Jesus.
Gospel writer John wrote that for the record ( bear record ) Jesus is the Son at John 1:34
Gospel writer John wrote that Nathanael believed Jesus to be Son at John 1:49
Gospel writer John wrote that Peter as spokesman for the 12 believed Jesus to be Son at John 6:68-69
Gospel writer John wrote that Jesus said that his Father is greater than all at John 10:29
Gospel writer John wrote that Jesus himself said he is Son in reply to the Jews at John 10:36
Gospel writer John wrote that Martha believed Jesus to be Son at John 11:27
Gospel writer John wrote that Jesus believed his Father is greater than Jesus at John 14:28
Gospel writer John wrote that he concluded that Jesus is the Son at John 20:31
Gospel writer John wrote that the heavenly Jesus still has a God over him at Revelation 3:12

Thank you for the response. However all you are doing is addressing the grammar. Will you address the concepts being expressed in the grammar?

John 14:9:
8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father '? 10"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.…

The bold text is added for emphasis by me. You use the same words in the same context for me. You will see it will fail.
if you grasp the concept at work you will realize he is not talking about image or form there.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

I do not think we are in much disagreement but the terminology is confusing others. I believe GOD is GOD as you and Jesus was and I liken Jesus to a MODEL or a PUPPET that GOD controlled. In Genesis we are told God formed the first man from the dust (mud or clay) from the ground; Jesus is the only the human formed LIKE ADAM was formed. Neither of them were born with a sin nature as well. In some literal sense the puppet and the puppet master are a real close relationship even though they are two separate things. Jesus unlike Adam had God's thoughts and qualities inside of HIM; This puts Jesus super close to God than any of us. The distinction between the puppet and the puppet master is hard to see if you do not grasp the concepts. There are not three GODS but ONLY ONE. I will further add that this distinction is the same relation as Soul is to Spirit. All humans have a Spirit and a Soul. How many know the difference between them? The separation is so small one would need a super duper microscope to see the space in between the two. Mathematicians have this thing called the Derivative which is almost identical; the derivative is the space between the tangent line and the slope of a curve. The points are so close together that both points are taken to be identical. So GOD is the tangent line in the analogy and Jesus is the slope of the curve. The two point are so microscopic that to human eyes that the points are identical.
 
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Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Re: the Trinity, my understanding is that it isn't three separate gods, of course...but rather One God...revealed in three different personas. (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
who are super one between the three persons ?

If it's "Father" ,so it's Him is God to two other persons too , Jesus (pbuh) called Him God , Jesus (pbuh) never called himself God or teached about trinity , that Authors claim (opinion) .
 

heksesang

Member
who are super one between the three persons ?

If it's "Father" ,so it's Him is God to two other persons too , Jesus (pbuh) called Him God , Jesus (pbuh) never called himself God or teached about trinity , that Authors claim (opinion) .
The three personas would be equal in the concept of the Trinity. It's just three ways of God showing himself. So in this concept, the Holy Spirit is God's own spirit, Jesus is God himself who has taken human form, and the Father is God himself in his true form. None of the three forms is anything else than God.

In this concept there is only one God, so the concept itself, God showing himself in any form he wants, should be valid for all three religions (all of them consider God to be almighty). The problem occurs when you read the gospels or the Qu'ran, where Jesus is being described as not being equal to the Father. This conflicts with the described concept of the Trinity.

Simply put, there is no way to describe the Trinity without being in conflict with the gospels or the Qu'ran.

How the gospels describes Jesus makes him a puppet of God, a person which is merely controlled or guided by God. So he isn't God, but he is like God as long as he stays true to God. But then he can't also be part of a Trinity where all three parts are God.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
The three personas would be equal in the concept of the Trinity. It's just three ways of God showing himself. So in this concept, the Holy Spirit is God's own spirit, Jesus is God himself who has taken human form, and the Father is God himself in his true form. None of the three forms is anything else than God.

In this concept there is only one God, so the concept itself, God showing himself in any form he wants, should be valid for all three religions (all of them consider God to be almighty). The problem occurs when you read the gospels or the Qu'ran, where Jesus is being described as not being equal to the Father. This conflicts with the described concept of the Trinity.

Simply put, there is no way to describe the Trinity without being in conflict with the gospels or the Qu'ran.

How the gospels describes Jesus makes him a puppet of God, a person which is merely controlled or guided by God. So he isn't God, but he is like God as long as he stays true to God. But then he can't also be part of a Trinity where all three parts are God.
Hi heksesang

In Bible Jesus (pbuh) never claim he is God , on contrary he worship his God "father" , not worship Holy Spirit . , SO God (Fathre ) is greater ONE .

The word Trinity is not exist in Bible , it's invented by Church .

there is BIG different between claim of Authors of Bible and Jesus "teaching" .

God said in Quran that Jesus (pbuh) will deny (in judgement day) that he said he is God or "worship me" .
 
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heksesang

Member
Hi heksesang

In Bible Jesus (pbuh) never claim he is God , on contrary he worship his God "father" , not worship Holy Spirit . , SO God (Fathre ) is greater ONE .

The word Trinity is not exist in Bible , it's invented by Church .

there is BIG different between claim of Authors of Bible and Jesus "teaching" .

God said in Quran that Jesus (pbuh) will deny (in judgement day) that he said he is God or "worship me" .
I tried to explain, the Holy Spirit is a part of God. The Holy Spirit is God's spirit. Just like a human's spirit is a part of the human, God's spirit is part of God. So there is no reason to say "I worship the Holy Spirit", because if you say "I worship the Father", you also implicitly say that you worship the Holy Spirit because that spirit is part of the Father.

The word trinity doesn't exist in the Bible, but the concept could still exist there without being named. And if we find something and it doesn't have a name, we invent a name for it. So the fact that the church invented the name doesn't really impact how true or false the concept is.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
I tried to explain, the Holy Spirit is a part of God. The Holy Spirit is God's spirit. Just like a human's spirit is a part of the human, God's spirit is part of God. So there is no reason to say "I worship the Holy Spirit", because if you say "I worship the Father", you also implicitly say that you worship the Holy Spirit because that spirit is part of the Father.

The word trinity doesn't exist in the Bible, but the concept could still exist there without being named. And if we find something and it doesn't have a name, we invent a name for it. So the fact that the church invented the name doesn't really impact how true or false the concept is.
You compare God to human soul (spirit) !!!! so God had His own spirit too lol
thats your claim thats God who said that.

in which verse of God said in Bible the Holy spirit is God , or part of Gof?

how about Jesus (pbuh) , how you explain that he worship God ?

it's that make sense that God worship Him self or part of Him?
 

heksesang

Member
You compare God to human soul (spirit) !!!! so God had His own spirit too lol
thats your claim thats God who said that.

in which verse of God said in Bible the Holy spirit is God , or part of Gof?

how about Jesus (pbuh) , how you explain that he worship God ?

it's that make sense that God worship Him self or part of Him?
Seeing you obviously misunderstand me, can you please quote the exact sentence where you think I said that Jesus was part of God? I need to understand where the misunderstanding happens if I am going to explain my points properly.

Yes, I do compare the human spirit and God's spirit. It is said that humans were created in God's image (this is said in Genesis as part of the creation story). If that is true, our spirit must also be an image of his spirit (aka The Holy Spirit).
The Holy Spirit is in Christianity largely identified with what is called "Spirit of God" in the Hebrew Bible (and which is also called "Holy Spirit" in the Talmud and Midrash). In both the Hebrew and Christian literature, this "Spirit of God" is considered to be the aspects of God pertaining to prophecy, wisdom and creativity.

I never claimed that God said this (it's explained in the religious texts, but I am not aware of any statement of the type "God said: ..." about this matter), however, so can you please quote my exact sentence where you think I claimed this?
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
This prayer came true later of course in Jesus being a HUMAN MODEL having NO HUMAN MOTHER and DIRECTLY Formed by God in Mary. No God did not have SEX with Mary. Jesus being born in this way is a MIRACLE and provides a way for HUMANS to connect to GOD directly.

I was going to go into detail about the whole betulah vs. almah, but then remembered this is a DIR.
 
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