The Golden Rule and the Punishment of Crime.

dust1n said:

If the golden rule is actually valid, then how can you put a criminal in prison or put them to death?

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The "golden rule" as stated by Jesus Christ is: "All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them. This, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean." (Matthew 7:12) I think this is a statement of how we individually should treat others. Criminals (and sometimes innocents) are punished by governmental authorities that are permitted by God to maintain a measure of law and order.(Romans 13:3,4) I believe that while God permits governments to rule temporarily, he does not create nor approve of these often cruel entities. In fact, the Bible reveals human governments are under Satan' control. (Luke 4:6) This helps explain the often cruel and excessive punishments meted out by human governments.

rusra02 said:

The "golden rule" as stated by Jesus Christ is: "All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them. This, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean." (Matthew 7:12) I think this is a statement of how we individually should treat others. Criminals (and sometimes innocents) are punished by governmental authorities that are permitted by God to maintain a measure of law and order.(Romans 13:3,4) I believe that while God permits governments to rule temporarily, he does not create nor approve of these often cruel entities. In fact, the Bible reveals human governments are under Satan' control. (Luke 4:6) This helps explain the often cruel and excessive punishments meted out by human governments.

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You said:
"I believe that while God permits governments to rule temporarily, he does not create nor approve of these often cruel entities."

Does that really reconcile with Romans 13 referenced immediately before this statement? Romans 13:1-6 seems to be saying government entities are put there by God to help you and that you must obey for this very reason, not be against them or fear them, and pay all your taxes.

I think it was slipped in there, personally, especially with the taxes bit.

rusra02 said:

The "golden rule" as stated by Jesus Christ is: "All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them. This, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean." (Matthew 7:12) I think this is a statement of how we individually should treat others. Criminals (and sometimes innocents) are punished by governmental authorities that are permitted by God to maintain a measure of law and order.(Romans 13:3,4) I believe that while God permits governments to rule temporarily, he does not create nor approve of these often cruel entities. In fact, the Bible reveals human governments are under Satan' control. (Luke 4:6) This helps explain the often cruel and excessive punishments meted out by human governments.

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So if I am a government official, God has granted me rule temporarily so that I don't have to follow the words of Jesus?

Quintessence said:

Never followed the golden rule anyway. Who needs it when you've got a personal code of honor?

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'Tis a good point.

dust1n said:

If the golden rule is actually valid, then how can you put a criminal in prison or put them to death?

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If you murder someone, you get the death penalty.
If I murder someone, I get the death penalty.

I do not see how this is a problem with the Golden Rule.

Mestemia said:

If you murder someone, you get the death penalty.
If I murder someone, I get the death penalty.

I do not see how this is a problem with the Golden Rule.

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If I get hungry, I'll kill and eat you.
If you get hungry, You kill and eat me.

Is that a better example?

dust1n said:

If I get hungry, I'll kill and eat you.
If you get hungry, You kill and eat me.

Is that a better example?

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Ah, so you are presenting the Golden Rule as an absolute?
Seems this approach is as realistic/useful as claiming freewill does not exist because you cannot fly.

Mestemia said:

Ah, so you are presenting the Golden Rule as an absolute?
Seems this approach is as realistic/useful as claiming freewill does not exist because you cannot fly.

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I was under the impression that most of the texts were presenting it as an absolute. I realize that most people don't carry it out as such. So, what is useful when it doesn't reach absurd claims, and not useful when it does?

David M said:

Because if I committed a crime I would want others to impose an appropriate punishment such as imprisonment.Which conforms with the Golden Rule.

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The problem with this is that while you would work well under the premise, it doesn't every everyone. Other people could want different things and be perfectly legitimate under some golden rule stress test. Perhaps like those two dudes who escaped that prison in New York a few months ago.

dust1n said:

I was under the impression that most of the texts were presenting it as an absolute. I realize that most people don't carry it out as such. So, what is useful when it doesn't reach absurd claims, and not useful when it does?

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I did not think you to be so impressionable.
How could any one carry it out as an absolute?
I suspect it is like the Judge not lest ye be judged.
It is not a command or absolute, but rather advice.

Mestemia said:

I did not think you to be so impressionable.
How could any one carry it out as an absolute?

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I dunno. That's what I'm wondering.

I suspect it is like the Judge not lest ye be judged.
It is not a command or absolute, but rather advice.

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I guess in some uses yes. But then there other instances where is sound more command-ish than it does advice-y .

"All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them. This, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean."

Though I assume this is probably due more to this particular translation.

dust1n said:

I was under the impression that most of the texts were presenting it as an absolute.

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Typical atheist.
Jerk one little verse out of context, blow it up into a Great Big Thing...
Then act like you're smarter than God or something.

Tom

Mestemia said:

I did not think you to be so impressionable.

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Also, I'm very bored with having the same 7 debates over and over...

dust1n said:

I dunno. That's what I'm wondering.



I guess in some uses yes. But then there other instances where is sound more command-ish than it does advice-y .

"All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them. This, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean."

Though I assume this is probably due more to this particular translation.

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Do you view that which came before it as commands?

columbus said:

Typical atheist.
Jerk one little verse out of context, blow it up into a Great Big Thing...
Then act like you've smarter than God or something.

Tom

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Not really a god thing since the Golden Rule is derived from an Egyptian text older than "God."

q konn said:

you don't believe in the possibility of a convincing arguments/s/?

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Depends on the scenario. Either way, even in instances where a convincing argument can be made, I can still get quite bored of it.

Mestemia said:

Do you view that which came before it as commands?

Matthew 7:1-10
`Judge not, that ye may not be judged,
for in what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged, and in what measure ye measure, it shall be measured to you.
`And why dost thou behold the mote that is in thy brother's eye, and the beam that is in thine own eye dost not consider?
or, how wilt thou say to thy brother, Suffer I may cast out the mote from thine eye, and lo, the beam is in thine own eye?
Hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then thou shalt see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
`Ye may not give that which is holy to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before the swine, that they may not trample them among their feet, and having turned--may rend you.
`Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you;
for every one who is asking doth receive, and he who is seeking doth find, and to him who is knocking it shall be opened.
`Or what man is of you, of whom, if his son may ask a loaf--a stone will he present to him?
and if a fish he may ask--a serpent will he present to him?

​

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If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.

There are parables of illustrations of what one is to do in all cases. Namely, the law specifically.

He gives all these instances in ways not to do them, and then basically says "therefore all things whatsoever."

Putting a criminal in prison should be toward protecting others.
Nothing can be done about a murder, for example, but something can be done about someone who is likely to commit another murder.

The "system" should be toward corrections. It should do the best thing for all -and favor the innocent.
It should consider as much as possible and create the best possible situation in the future.

We have a "correctional" system -but it doesn't actually correct much -for many reasons.

The death penalty does no good as a punishment toward correction of an individual (who will be dead) -and is not much of a deterrent to violent types.
It might satisfy a need for vengeance of loved ones of a victim, but that isn't really a good thing.
The life for life mentality is somewhat of a deterrent -but doesn't really make anything right.
If the death penalty has any place, it would be to remove someone from the world if there was absolutely no good reason for them to be in it.
(The death penalty in ancient Israel was about more than crime and punishment -and was used to remove certain things from Israel by removing certain people in preparation for the new covenant).

The golden rule is based on fairness, honesty, righteousness, etc. -not on human nature or individual humans.
To apply it correctly, a person should want others to do what is right to them for the good of all -even if it is not pleasant.


Let's say there was a minor car accident....

A fair person would want another to hold them responsible if they were at fault -because it creates the best possible future. An unfair person would want to avoid responsibility.

Sees said:

You said:
"I believe that while God permits governments to rule temporarily, he does not create nor approve of these often cruel entities."

Does that really reconcile with Romans 13 referenced immediately before this statement? Romans 13:1-6 seems to be saying government entities are put there by God to help you and that you must obey for this very reason, not be against them or fear them, and pay all your taxes.

I think it was slipped in there, personally.

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Yes, Romans 13:1 says "Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God." I believe that any government exists by God's permission. In that sense, they stand placed in their relative position. God has never relinquished his Sovereignty, and when governments seek to thwart Jehovah's will or purpose, he can and did remove them. For example, Jehovah destroyed proud Pharoah. He used Nebuchadnezzar to bring his judgment on Israel, but later removed proud Nebuchadnezzar from his throne for seven years. No government could exist unless God allows it to exist. However, I believe the Bible clearly shows that it is Satan who controls human governments. (1 John 5:19) Their authority over Christians is not absolute but relative. Thus Christians obey governmental authorities unless the government requires them to violate God's laws, in which case they "obey God as ruler rather than men." (Acts 5:29)

dust1n said:

So if I am a government official, God has granted me rule temporarily so that I don't have to follow the words of Jesus?

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God permits human governments to rule temporarily, yes. I am not aware of any government that follows Jesus Christ's teachings.