God of the Old Testament

ThePainefulTruth · Jul 1, 2015

The Deist said:
I like that part. I have always questioned the concept of blind faith. People that buy into it are basically saying, "I have zero proof or evidence of any kind, but none of that matters."

But faith, true faith (emotions guided by reason, IOW not blind) is just as important. I use the analogy of a ship. Reason is someone at the controls guiding the ship away from/through disasters and staying on course; while true faith is the drive, the engine, without which it's dead in the water. This is sort of a modification of the way Einstein put it.

LASTINGLIGHT · Jul 19, 2015

Marcion was an early rejector of the OT. He saw the OT God as incompatable with the God that Jesus described. I see his point.

leibowde84 · Jul 19, 2015

Deist Mentor said:
Growing up as a Baptist and spending 30 years in that religion/denomination, I did a lot of Bible study sessions, but it was not until I was in my 30s and I really started paying attention to what was actually written in the Bible, that I drifted away from my upbringing and eventually walking the path of the deist. These are some of the things that after reading them, I became further removed from my childhood religion:

Human sacrifice
Child sacrifice
Slavery
Murder
Rape

All of these things are found in the OT and they were all SUPPOSEDLY ordered by God. First born animals and children were to be sacrificed as a burnt offering. Slavery was encouraged and there were laws that governed its practice. When the Israelites conquered a city, they murdered every man, woman and child in it. Virgin girls were kidnapped, taken as wives and forcefully raped.

As an adult, when I actually understood what those things were and how heinous and immoral they were, to go back and re-read the Bible and see them throughout the OT, I could not help but drift away. Hell, I am a cop (CSI) and help send people to prison for doing those things.

It really gripes me to read about ancient priests and how they lived. "God" demands a 10% tribute (tithe), payable to the priesthood. There was to be a weekly feast prepared a certain way and with the best morsels, also given to the priesthood. The priests did not work in the fields or tend to the flocks...they sat around in their shaded tents and lived an easy, rich life. It was the biggest con game of its time...and proliferates to this very day.

I have always said that the god of the OT and the god of the NT seem to be two different individuals.

"Bow down before me! Tremble before me! Fear me! You will burn in hell!" That sounds more like the directives of a diabolical, self righteous dictator than it does a benevolent, loving deity.

That is one of the bigger reasons why I am a deist. Deism, as a theological concept, denies the drivel found in the OT as being divinely inspired. We can clearly see where it was a person, or group of people, that were using religion and the threat of divine wrath to live a fat, easy life. There was a reason only the priests could go inside the temple...they did not want their secret to get out!

I really enjoyed this explanation. I kind of feel the same way.

I grew up in a mixed religion household of Judaism and Roman catholicism. Hebrew school on the weekends and catholic grade school. When I was in eighth grade u chose to be confirmed for the same exact reasons you just described. I didn't want to believe that God was capable of what I read in the old testament.

ThePainefulTruth · Jul 19, 2015

LASTINGLIGHT said:
Marcion was an early rejector of the OT. He saw the OT God as incompatable with the God that Jesus described. I see his point.

Yet Jesus worshiped the God of the O/T as his Father, and expected imminent Kingdom of that God. Just another contradiction, the Bible's full of them.

jeager106 · Jul 19, 2015

@URAVIP2ME
Re Act 2:27
From several Bibles. I see no mention of the mythical "hell".
New International Version
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.New Living Translation
For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.English Standard Version
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.New American Standard Bible
BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.King James Bible
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.Holman Christian Standard Bible
because You will not leave me in Hades or allow Your Holy One to see decay. International Standard Version
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades or allow your Holy One to experience decay.NET Bible
because you will not leave my soul in Hades, nor permit your Holy One to experience decay. Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Because you did not leave my Soul in Sheol and you did not give your Pure One to see destruction.”GOD'S WORD® Translation
because you do not abandon my soul to the grave or allow your holy one to decay.Jubilee Bible 2000
because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Neo Deist · Jul 19, 2015

jeager106 said:
@URAVIP2ME
Re Act 2:27
From several Bibles. I see no mention of the mythical "hell".
New International Version
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.New Living Translation
For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.English Standard Version
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.New American Standard Bible
BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.King James Bible
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.Holman Christian Standard Bible
because You will not leave me in Hades or allow Your Holy One to see decay. International Standard Version
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades or allow your Holy One to experience decay.NET Bible
because you will not leave my soul in Hades, nor permit your Holy One to experience decay. Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Because you did not leave my Soul in Sheol and you did not give your Pure One to see destruction.”GOD'S WORD® Translation
because you do not abandon my soul to the grave or allow your holy one to decay.Jubilee Bible 2000
because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Hell is misunderstood by many. The KJV and the RCC saw to that waaay back when.

Neo Deist · Jul 20, 2015

@URAVIP2ME While I appreciate the posts and your understanding of biblical truths, this particular forum is for Theological Concepts - Deism, not Theological Concepts - Early Christianity.

Deism rejects the Bible as divinely inspired, as well as any prophets. We look to nature and creation to understand that there is a God.

Neo Deist · Aug 4, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
Please take note Matthew 24 and Luke 21 have both a minor and a MAJOR fulfillment.
The minor fulfillment - Luke 19:43-44 - was fulfilled in the year 70 when the Roman armies - Matthew 24:15 - destroyed Jerusalem
Revelation was Not written for the 1st century but for our day or time frame - Revelation 1:10
Back in the first century there was Not the global or international troubles as mentioned at Matthew 24:7; Luke 21:11
Also, please note at Matthew 24:14 there was No earth-wide preaching as a witness to ALL of earth's nations.- Acts of the Apostles 1:8
So, between the minor and MAJOR fulfillment it bridges a l-o-n-g gap period of time.
The generation that would see Matthew 24:14 completed is the generation of our day or time period.
Modern-day technology has even made possible rapid Bible translation so that people even living in remote areas of earth can and now do have access to the Bible in their own language or mother tongue.

The Un-painful truth is that Jesus is the one who will be ushering in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill starting with Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth when righteous mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' Tree of Life ' on earth for the healing of earth's nations as mentioned at Revelation 22:2. Isaiah chapter 35 describes oh how good earthly conditions will be.

This is Deism - Theological Concepts. Please post here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forums/theism.229/

Besides. deists reject the Bible as the divine word of God. Especially the NT, which was written after-the-fact, many authors are anonymous, and most of it is hearsay.

ThePainefulTruth · Aug 7, 2015

Deist Mentor said:
These are not deistic concepts and don't belong on this particular forum.

If you are trying to preach to us, you are wasting your time. Many of us started out as Christians, but then grew up and started thinking for ourselves.

Precisely. And they aren't because they have no foundation in reason, but in faith in revealed hearsay only.

Neo Deist · Aug 8, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
Whether on Not you call the old Hebrew Scriptures as hearsay or not, Jesus logically reasoned on them. Jesus used logic and reason using the old Hebrew Scriptures on which to base his teachings. That is why there are corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages between the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures.

Sigh.

He is referring to the entire Bible, especially the NT. Most of it is hearsay as the authors were either unknown or they were written by 3rd parties decades after the fact.

But I will repeat this one more time...this forum is not about Christian concepts, preaching to others about Christianity, etc. It is for the discussion of Deistic Theological Concepts (hence the forum category). If you can't discuss deism, you need to go elsewhere.

columbus · Aug 8, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
Whether on Not you call the old Hebrew Scriptures as hearsay or not, Jesus logically reasoned on them.

There is no way to tell if this happened or not. There are stories about it, but there are ancient stories of many kinds. You don't believe in most of them any more than I do.

Personally, I don't have a problem with you posting here. But other posters do and there is no doubt that you are breaking RF rules. Why do you feel entitled to do that? Why do you ignore other people's wishes?
Tom

BenTheBeliever · Aug 9, 2015

As a Christian I have often wonder myself if they are two different people. All I can say is the true message of Christ is forgiveness,mercy and love

Neo Deist · Aug 10, 2015

CAN WE PLEASE TAKE THIS NON-DEISM CRAP OUT OF THIS PARTICULAR FORUM...

THIS FORUM IS FOR THEOLOGICAL CONCEPTS - DEISM ONLY.

ThePainefulTruth · Aug 11, 2015

Deist Mentor said:
CAN WE PLEASE TAKE THIS NON-DEISM CRAP OUT OF THIS PARTICULAR FORUM...

THIS FORUM IS FOR THEOLOGICAL CONCEPTS - DEISM ONLY.

I'm not sure what you're objecting to, especially since you inserted your comment following a quote from Thomas Paine's Age of Reason, addressing the deistic theological concept of the "word of God". I understand the frustration of continually being confronted with brick wall non-reasoning like "But the Bible says....", but the OP sort of invites that kinda thing. I guess what I'm saying is, could you reference specific comments your objecting too. I'm on your side here, just sayin'; and given the time lapse, that Paine quote might actually have sunk in to a degree. Not likely, but it's the most concise and profound deistic argument against divine revelation I know of, and I've seen it change minds before.

Neo Deist · Aug 11, 2015

Pretty much all of URAVIP2ME's post's are Christian proselytizing and have nothing to do with deism. I have repeatedly told him that this is a very specific forum but he ignores it. He needs to take that crap to a Christianity DIR.

Neo Deist · Aug 18, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
All translations can be compared with the ancient manuscripts. It is the ancient manuscripts that support Bible canon.

Since this pertains to deism's rejection of holy books, I will comment on this one section...

Your statement is not correct. The original works of "Moses" and others have long been lost/destroyed. Many were presumably lost when Nebuchadnezzar II burned Jerusalem. Those original works are known as the "Autographs" and no translation can be compared to them. All we have are copies of copies...and they are subject to human error, just like anything else.

Besides, deists reject holy books because we understand that they all originated with some person who claimed to hear God(s) speaking to him/her, and more so than not that person had an agenda. They were also written for a particular culture and time period, most of whom had very little scientific or medical knowledge.

ThePainefulTruth · Aug 18, 2015

URAVIP2ME said:
All translations can be compared with the ancient manuscripts. It is the ancient manuscripts that support Bible canon.

So don't waste your money on an English or other post-ancient Bible; and if you can't read Greek or Hebrew you're SOL. Define ancient. And what do we do with the Dead Sea Scrolls and Gnostic texts which were hidden to protect them from destruction by those who had arbitrarily decided what the canon was/is? And then there's archaeological evidence that causes the definition of certain words to come into question, like whether resurrection was a whole body or only a spiritual event. Trying to provide cover for 3000 years of biblical corruption and hearsay generates a whole lot of back-filling and tap-dancing.

Quagmire · Aug 18, 2015

**Mod Post***

Most the posts in this thread have been deleted.

While this isn't a DIR forum, all of the forums under Theological Concepts are discussion forums. Debating isn't allowed. http://www.religiousforums.com/forums/theological-concepts.228/

This is the Deism sub-forum. Anyone can post here, but you'll need to limit your comments to topics specifically concerning Deism.

Neo Deist · Aug 18, 2015

Thanks for cleaning the thread up.

Saint_of_Me · Oct 5, 2015

Deist Mentor said:
Growing up as a Baptist and spending 30 years in that religion/denomination, I did a lot of Bible study sessions, but it was not until I was in my 30s and I really started paying attention to what was actually written in the Bible, that I drifted away from my upbringing and eventually walking the path of the deist. These are some of the things that after reading them, I became further removed from my childhood religion:

Human sacrifice
Child sacrifice
Slavery
Murder
Rape

All of these things are found in the OT and they were all SUPPOSEDLY ordered by God. First born animals and children were to be sacrificed as a burnt offering. Slavery was encouraged and there were laws that governed its practice. When the Israelites conquered a city, they murdered every man, woman and child in it. Virgin girls were kidnapped, taken as wives and forcefully raped.

As an adult, when I actually understood what those things were and how heinous and immoral they were, to go back and re-read the Bible and see them throughout the OT, I could not help but drift away. Hell, I am a cop (CSI) and help send people to prison for doing those things.

It really gripes me to read about ancient priests and how they lived. "God" demands a 10% tribute (tithe), payable to the priesthood. There was to be a weekly feast prepared a certain way and with the best morsels, also given to the priesthood. The priests did not work in the fields or tend to the flocks...they sat around in their shaded tents and lived an easy, rich life. It was the biggest con game of its time...and proliferates to this very day.

I have always said that the god of the OT and the god of the NT seem to be two different individuals.

"Bow down before me! Tremble before me! Fear me! You will burn in hell!" That sounds more like the directives of a diabolical, self righteous dictator than it does a benevolent, loving deity.

That is one of the bigger reasons why I am a deist. Deism, as a theological concept, denies the drivel found in the OT as being divinely inspired. We can clearly see where it was a person, or group of people, that were using religion and the threat of divine wrath to live a fat, easy life. There was a reason only the priests could go inside the temple...they did not want their secret to get out!

Congratulations on seeing the light and embracing reason and logic.

Yeah, for my money the god of the Old Testament, Yahweh, is indeed one of the most loathsome character in all of fiction. A jealous, petty, mass-murdering and child-killing malevolent bully.

How anybody could ever worship such a thing is beyond me. I continue to equate belief in, and worship of, such a god as a form of psychosis.

God of the Old Testament

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