Death penalty: Are you for or against it?

Curious George · Oct 3, 2015

Mazdaian said:
This isn't vigilante, this is true justice. What you call as 'compassion' is cowardice and allowing evil which has terrorized people to come back and terrorize again, just so some people can sleep better at night.

What about everyone who is going to pay because of people too weak and scared to do the right thing? What happens when you live in an area where criminals roam free and terrorize people because the justice system is filled with cowards and bleeding hearts who don't know that the right thing would be to remove them from society for good!?

The only reason you would let these people go is because they won't terrorize your neighbourhood. The vilest people should be put down, and if the justice system doesn't other prisoners will. If you grew up in an area where a lax criminal system let evil roam free you'd want capital punishment for those who bring pain to so many.

Yes, and as I said, even ISIS thinks they are doing the "right" thing.

The world you paint entails rule by terrorists not freedom from them.

MD · Oct 3, 2015

Curious George said:
Yes, and as I said, even ISIS thinks they are doing the "right" thing.

The world you paint entails rule by terrorists not freedom from them.

The world you want is to give terrorists power because it bothers your conscience too much to do the right thing. There are some people who are beyond rehabilitation.

Curious George · Oct 3, 2015

Mazdaian said:
The world you want is to give terrorists power because it bothers your conscience too much to do the right thing. There are some people who are beyond rehabilitation.

What exactly do you think is the world I want? Have you read my posts?

Sundance · Oct 3, 2015

If I may weigh in on this issue, I'll say as a Christian, I am a believer in what the Bible teaches. It, on one hand, makes it clear that there are and always have been sins worthy of physical death. On the other hand, our Lord teaches us again and again to be merciful, to be forgiving, because in the end, all vengeance belongs to God our Father, not to us as human beings. Though any criminal, every sinner believes they will get away from paying the price for their crime, they surely won't, especially if he or she is not concerned with repentance and making amends.

Deidre · Oct 3, 2015

Saint_of_Me said:
Actually if the death penalty was used correctly it WOULD serve as a deterrent. Especially if ti were applied to some other crimes like the OP mentioned.
You gonna try and say that if we killed guys in town square a couple weeks after sentencing for rape or financial fraud or animal abuse or drug dealing that those who deal in those sorts of things would not think twice or even desist in their criminal activities?

LOL. They would. Want proof? Check out the crime rate in countries with Draconian punishment, like in the Middle East or China.

Again--the lone problem with Capitol Punishment in this country is that it is not employed nearly expediently or often enough.

Are you a liberal? LOL..one of those who believe in therapy for criminals instead of mere incarceration, death, or hard labor?

You know what the definition of a liberal is?

Somebody who hasn't been mugged yet.

LOL.

Peace.

I'm not a liberal but it's not rocket science to figure out that violence begets more violence. If fear of suffering and death is the only means to get people to 'stay in line,' what kind of society is that? If fear of punishment worked, then the US prison system wouldn't be overflowing with repeat criminals.

RedDragon94 · Oct 3, 2015

Saint Frankenstein said:
As for me, I'm for it and think it should be expanded for certain crimes. I've seen enough to know that some people are really just evil and some of things that they do to humans or animals is just unspeakable, and they should be removed from the earth for justice's sake. I don't even care about the deterrence argument. It's about justice, to me.

These are the things I think it should be expanded to include:

Violent rape
Sadistic animal abuse and torture
Pimping
Human trafficking
Poaching (especially of endangered/protected species)
Drug lords
Child molestation and rape
Knowingly taking part in and facilitating human rights abuses
Knowingly causing or facilitating financial disasters (that would clear out Wall Street and many politicians pretty quick, lol)

In my opinion, if there's airtight evidence that has been proven not to have been faked by an impartial panel of experts (biological, audio, video, documents, etc.), they should be denied an appeal, denied plea deals and fast-tracked on death row. If such evidence does not exist, they should be allowed appeals.

As for methods of carrying out the death sentence, I believe in scrapping silliness like lethal injection, gas chambers, etc. and just putting a bullet into their head.

Also, I agree that the prison system and legal system needs a drastic overhaul. But much of this is idealism and not necessarily supporting the broken, corrupt system that exists now. In other words, it's what I'd like to see. I believe in rehabilitating those who can be rehabilitated - not all can be, such as psychopaths and those with similar brain abnormalities such as ASPD - but I also believe in justice and that there are some crimes that only monsters would commit in the first place.

So what's your opinion on this?

This list is interesting. Do you know how many people born into urban areas do things like drug trafficking and pimping because they aren't educated and feel they have no other choice? Animal abuse, really? What about child abuse in general, you wanna lump that in there?

Saint Frankenstein · Oct 3, 2015

RedDragon94 said:
This list is interesting. Do you know how many people born into urban areas do things like drug trafficking and pimping because they aren't educated and feel they have no other choice?

I'm not talking about simply being a dealer. I'm talking about things like being the head of a cartel. As for pimping, that's often a form of slavery.

Animal abuse, really?

Of course.

What about child abuse in general, you wanna lump that in there?

Depends on the extent.

9-10ths_Penguin · Oct 4, 2015

Curious George said:
For correlation you would need a study on death row offenders held in general population. Compared to death row offenders held on death row. But even that wouldn't be correct because such would bias it the other way unfairly, for nothing in the advocating of stopping the DP entails having death row types in general population. My point was that the study is to broad to show even correlation with death row types. So, you don't even have correlation.

I think you're forgetting something: *you* were the one arguing that the death penalty is better than life imprisonment for specific deterrence. You still haven't supported this claim. You just did some hand-waving about jailhouse murders by people serving life sentences.

As I pointed out, death penalty states actually have a higher rate of jailhouse murders than states without the death penalty, so I'm suspicious of your claims. Even if you try to come up with sketchy rationalizations for these stats, you still haven't justified your claim.

So... what reason do you have to think that capital offenders commit fewer crimes after sentencing than offenders serving life sentences? Are you just basing this on a simplistic idea of "you don't commit any crimes onces you're dead"? If so, you forget that there's years or decades from when a death sentence is handed down until it's carried out.

... and if you want to get rid of that long delay and just summarily execute prisoners right after sentencing, then there are a whole different boatload of problems with your position.

9-10ths_Penguin · Oct 4, 2015

DJ_sXe said:
If I may weigh in on this issue, I'll say as a Christian, I am a believer in what the Bible teaches. It, on one hand, makes it clear that there are and always have been sins worthy of physical death. On the other hand, our Lord teaches us again and again to be merciful, to be forgiving, because in the end, all vengeance belongs to God our Father, not to us as human beings. Though any criminal, every sinner believes they will get away from paying the price for their crime, they surely won't, especially if he or she is not concerned with repentance and making amends.

Something I've wondered about: why would a Christian care about the secular justice system at all? Don't you believe that "true" justice will be meted out by God anyhow? Wouldn't any human justice system be redundant, and nothing more than a chance to introduce injustices (though if God is going to reward people in Heaven for suffering injustices, maybe that doesn't really matter)?

Curious George · Oct 4, 2015

9-10ths_Penguin said:
I think you're forgetting something: *you* were the one arguing that the death penalty is better than life imprisonment for specific deterrence. You still haven't supported this claim. You just did some hand-waving about jailhouse murders by people serving life sentences.

As I pointed out, death penalty states actually have a higher rate of jailhouse murders than states without the death penalty, so I'm suspicious of your claims. Even if you try to come up with sketchy rationalizations for these stats, you still haven't justified your claim.

So... what reason do you have to think that capital offenders commit fewer crimes after sentencing than offenders serving life sentences? Are you just basing this on a simplistic idea of "you don't commit any crimes onces you're dead"? If so, you forget that there's years or decades from when a death sentence is handed down until it's carried out.

... and if you want to get rid of that long delay and just summarily execute prisoners right after sentencing, then there are a whole different boatload of problems with your position.

I absolutely want to minimize the delay but still provide sufficient process.

Yes, after they are dead they cannot commit a crime.

The length of stay is decidedly shorter than life. So the time still works in my favor. You bring up another good point re: whether an inmate facing death is more hostile than one serving life without. Again I am not sure that we can find an appropriate stat, but I would imagine that this is actually opposite. I based my opinion on discussions with officers who have worked on death row. But I encourage you to research death row inmate behavior and prove me wrong.

Glaurung · Oct 4, 2015

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Something I've wondered about: why would a Christian care about the secular justice system at all? Don't you believe that "true" justice will be meted out by God anyhow?

Because this life is important, both on the individual and societal level. We have a duty to practice virtue and work towards the common good, not just to sit passively and wait for the afterlife because it "doesn't matter".

Wouldn't any human justice system be redundant, and nothing more than a chance to introduce injustices

We're not infallible and unfortunate things will happen. But we live in a society, and a society needs laws in order to function. Being Christian in no way diminishes that need.

Your point is little more clever than asking why a Christian does not kill himself to get to heaven immediately.

Sundance · Oct 4, 2015

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Something I've wondered about: why would a Christian care about the secular justice system at all? Don't you believe that "true" justice will be meted out by God anyhow? Wouldn't any human justice system be redundant, and nothing more than a chance to introduce injustices (though if God is going to reward people in Heaven for suffering injustices, maybe that doesn't really matter)?

To answer the first question: the same reason why an individual of any other faith tradition would care. We all are subject to the justice system, regardless of what religion or lack thereof we may profess. As for question number two, it is an oversimplification of what I posted...and what I believe. As I had already mentioned, serious criminals who are not concerned with repentance or making amends they will most assuredly be dealt with, both in this life and the next. Justice is handed out by human judges in this life, and by God in the next. Either way, if a criminal shows no remorse for his or her crime, then I will show no remorse in handing out due justice.

9-10ths_Penguin · Oct 4, 2015

DJ_sXe said:
To answer the first question: the same reason why an individual of any other faith tradition would care.

I care about implementing a justice system because I think that if people don't do it, it won't happen. This justification doesn't apply in most Christian belief systems.

DJ_sXe said:
We all are subject to the justice system, regardless of what religion or lack thereof we may profess. As for question number two, it is an oversimplification of what I posted...and what I believe. As I had already mentioned, serious criminals who are not concerned with repentance or making amends they will most assuredly be dealt with, both in this life and the next. Justice is handed out by human judges in this life, and by God in the next. Either way, if a criminal shows no remorse for his or her crime, then I will show no remorse in handing out due justice.

But if the punishment you would hand out is deserved, then God will take care of it if you don't. If it won't happen without you, then God can't be relied upon to do it... which would imply that the punishment is unjust... no?

Saint_of_Me · Oct 4, 2015

Deidre said:
I'm not a liberal but it's not rocket science to figure out that violence begets more violence. If fear of suffering and death is the only means to get people to 'stay in line,' what kind of society is that? If fear of punishment worked, then the US prison system wouldn't be overflowing with repeat criminals.

Again, your adage "violence only begats more violence" does not seem to hold true in those countries I mentioned in my OP that impose Draconian laws. Rather, they seem to enjoy minuscule violent crime rates.

So...what kind of a society is that?

LOL..seems like a pretty safe one.

Unless of course you're a murderous criminal.

Deidre · Oct 4, 2015

Saint_of_Me said:
Again, your adage "violence only begats more violence" does not seem to hold true in those countries I mentioned in my OP that impose Draconian laws. Rather, they seem to enjoy minuscule violent crime rates.

So...what kind of a society is that?

LOL..seems like a pretty safe one.

Unless of course you're a murderous criminal.

Maybe you should run the world. You know everything, you seem to think. ^_^

Saint_of_Me · Oct 4, 2015

Deidre said:
Maybe you should run the world. You know everything, you seem to think. ^_^

Naw...I don't have the stomach for politics to run the world. Or even this country. But thanks.

I just have my opinions, like everybody else.

But as a science guy, I DO usually try to arm them with facts.

Unlike, say, some of the religious folks around here.

psychoslice · Oct 4, 2015

Deidre said:
Maybe you should run the world. You know everything, you seem to think. ^_^

I think he is intelligent and has some good ideas, maybe you should take more notice ?.

Saint_of_Me · Oct 4, 2015

psychoslice said:
I think he is intelligent and has some good ideas, maybe you should take more notice ?.

Well, thank you!

Likewise, I'm sure.

Wirey · Oct 5, 2015

I am a complete fan of allowing the state to determine when I die. Just imagine how great it will be when the Muslims gain the upper hand in voting numbers and make Christianity a federal offense.

Deidre · Oct 5, 2015

psychoslice said:
I think he is intelligent and has some good ideas, maybe you should take more notice ?.

I think for myself, thanks. The DP helps no one ...so think as you like.

Death penalty: Are you for or against it?

Are you for or against the death penalty?

I support the death penalty.

I oppose the death penalty.

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