If God Controls Everything...

Glaurung · Sep 27, 2015

JoStories said:
Either God is omnipotent or God is not.

God is omnipotent.

Either God knows who will do what or God doesn't

God knows.

and if God does know, that means God would then be culpable in that God would not have striven to help that individual see how wrong their choice might have been.

I disagree. God knows with certainty your future actions, yet he is no way culpable for them. You really need to get it into your head that Christians such as myself reject the notion that God's omnipotence infringes on human moral responsibility. (No matter how hard and desperately you what to insist on it).

Or a person chooses, such as me, to follow a Buddhist path. And for that, I get to go to hell?

Not necessarily. The only thing a Catholic can say with confidence is that without Christ salvation is impossible. Culpable rejection of Christ is rejection of salvation. To what degree your rejection is culpable will be for God to judge.

viole · Sep 27, 2015

Tlaloc said:
I disagree. God knows with certainty your future actions, yet he is no way culpable for them. You really need to get it into your head that Christians such as myself reject the notion that God's omnipotence infringes on human moral responsibility. (No matter how hard and desperately you what to insist on it).

Suppose I make conscious artificial intelligence and I know that in in the future one of those (perfectly autonomous beings) will kill a child.

Am I morally OK?

Ciao

- viole

Glaurung · Sep 27, 2015

viole said:
Suppose I make conscious artificial intelligence and I know that in in the future one of those (perfectly autonomous beings) will kill a child.

If your AI is truly autonomous, you lacking the providential omniscience of God can't possibly know what it would do. Secondly, God as the supreme lord of existence actually has the right to permit any evil including your death, as he wills for his purposes. You, lack that same right towards others. God has the supreme right of life and death over all.

That's another thing you have to swallow. The recognition that you are dust given life by God. And as God's property, he can do with you and the entire universe whatever he wills with perfect justification.

viole · Sep 27, 2015

Tlaloc said:
If your AI is truly autonomous, you lacking the providential omniscience of God can't possibly know what it would do. Secondly, God as the supreme lord of existence actually has the right to permit any evil including your death, as he wills for his purposes. You, lack that same right towards others. God has the supreme right of life and death over all.

That's another thing you have to swallow. The recognition that you are dust given life by God. And as God's property, he can do with you and the entire universe whatever he wills with perfect justification.

Well, we could posit any sort of God, with enough imagination, I guess.

But let's concentrate on the one we sort of know. What is His justification to cause so many miscarriages in your opinion?

Ciao

- viole

Etritonakin · Sep 27, 2015

One aspect of the tree of life was/is maintenance of the creation.

Man rejected God in Eden -and many times afterward.

God -for the most part -allowed the creation to fall into whatever state it would -and allowed man to experience it. Not all of our problems are caused by human choices, but many are. Some are happenstance and God also determines some difficult situations for overall psychological effect.

It is a harsh reality, but one we would continually choose without experience -that is essentially the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

All of the creation is renewable, but our minds are being created and perfected by this experience -and the experience will result in a correct mental state -which will make renewing the creation worthwhile, as we will learn the necessity of God's government, his power over the creation/knowledge of the creation -and he will not have to spend eternity fixing our mistakes.

1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. 6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, 7And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing

…19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.…

It has already been determined that all tears will be wiped away.

Saint Frankenstein · Sep 27, 2015

JoStories said:
I'm sorry but that seems to me to indicate a position that justifies your faith. Either God is omnipotent or God is not. Either God knows who will do what or God doesn't, and if God does know, that means God would then be culpable in that God would not have striven to help that individual see how wrong their choice might have been. Say one is a murderer. That would mean God allowed that person to murder. What is the point of that? Or a person chooses, such as me, to follow a Buddhist path. And for that, I get to go to hell? And God would know that? Sounds very monstrous to me.

It sounds like you have a very shallow idea of Christian philosophy and you've actually engaged in a contradiction.

To be truly all-powerful, you must literally have the ability to do anything and everything. That must necessarily include limiting your powers. God limited Himself by becoming Incarnate in the human body of Jesus Christ. God is the Creator and Sustainer of all of reality but He chose to descend unto us and be born as a fragile little baby. So, we see that God is able to limit Himself and He does so at times.

Now, we can also deduce that God did not make us to be robot or puppets, since He created us in His own Image. What this means is that we share His Nature to a certain extent. It means that He blessed us (or cursed, some would say, lol) with traits such as a rational mind and free will. In order that those traits could be exercised, He has granted us a degree of sovereignty. That means that He abrogates some of His power to us so that we may have power in our domain. He had to give a little so we can have a little.

Now the ability to do anything and everything isn't the same ability as having all-knowledge. God knew every single thing - on all levels - that would occur before He created the cosmos. He literally knows everything. He knew what our every thought and action would be - all of us, as individuals! - before He even created time. However, that's not the same as controlling your actions/thoughts or willing you to have certain thoughts and do certain things. God just knows because it is in His ability to know all things. But since He grants a degree of autonomy to His creations, He respects our free choice. That includes the choice to do wrong or even great evil.

As for whether you're going to hell because you're a Buddhist, Catholicism doesn't say that. When God judges, He takes measure of every aspect of your soul. Ultimately, it is you who decides where you will go.

Glaurung · Sep 28, 2015

viole said:
Well, we could posit any sort of God, with enough imagination, I guess.

Actually, we cannot. God is infinitely above human conceptualization. Which is why creating trite moral dilemmas for God is asinine. There's a good reason why both Islam and Judaism forbids visual representations of God. Christianity may not share that prohibition, but conversations like this one start to make me sympathetic. (Granted certain forms of Islam go to the extreme and ban representative art altogether).

But let's concentrate on the one we sort of know. What is His justification to cause so many miscarriages in your opinion?

Have you ever read the Book of Job?

rusra02 · Sep 28, 2015

Deist Mentor said:
Some believe that God controls everything, and that everything happens according to His will. They will go as far as to refuse medical treatment, blood transfusions, etc. Their attitude is that if it is God's will, then they will be saved, cured, not robbed, not in a car crash, etc. So here is a question...

According to Revelation 20:11-15, the dead are raised from their graves and judged according to their deeds [actions]. But if God controls everything, why is a judgment necessary since He would be judging what He caused in the first place? Are humans really nothing more than automatons...mere robots?

Something to think about.

To claim that God is responsible for the mess mankind is in is to ignore what he Bible says at 1 John 5:19; "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." Satan is ruling this world, and he offered it all to Jesus Christ: "Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish." (Luke 4:6) So what is taking place has been Satan's doing, not God's. Therefore, the unscriptural doctrine of predestination is false, just as you infer, IMO.

Guy Threepwood · Sep 28, 2015

JoStories said:
I'm sorry but that seems to me to indicate a position that justifies your faith. Either God is omnipotent or God is not. Either God knows who will do what or God doesn't, and if God does know, that means God would then be culpable in that God would not have striven to help that individual see how wrong their choice might have been. Say one is a murderer. That would mean God allowed that person to murder. What is the point of that? Or a person chooses, such as me, to follow a Buddhist path. And for that, I get to go to hell? And God would know that? Sounds very monstrous to me.

Does a loving parent grant a child every possible wish, prevent them from making any mistakes?

We want them to choose 'good' over 'bad' for themselves, and 'good' cannot be chosen if there is no choice

Etritonakin · Sep 28, 2015

God is omnipotent in that he has all power over them or that to whom or which he granted power.
He is able to take that power again. We cannot take his power.

His will and knowledge also supersedes all to whom he granted will and knowledge.
By his will he can remove our will, and by his knowledge he can remove our knowledge. We cannot remove his will or knowledge.

The only thing God cannot do is go against his word, because by his word he has said so. He is perfectly careful when swearing by himself that certain things will be and will not be. He is perfectly trustworthy and accountable to himself.

In granting power over part of the creation and creativity, God knowingly takes that power from himself and gives it.

Granting creativity is essentially God saying that he will make himself blind to which decisions we will make -even though many decisions can be predicted generally.

He may not know if you will eat the oatmeal or the captain crunch with crunch berries, but you'll probably eat eventually -because you will definitely get hungry, etc., etc.....

As we were created within a creation he knows perfectly well -having designed and created it -he knows the limits of our creativity, because we can only act upon it as our composition allows -and it can only be acted upon as its composition allows.

We may be able to create beyond what we call the laws of the universe eventually -but not now. Eternity is a long time. Of the increase of the government of God and Christ there will be no end.

Any person with power and decision can be removed if necessary -and any works they have worked can be undone if necessary. Once our minds are perfect as God's is perfect, that will not be necessary.

viole · Sep 28, 2015

Tlaloc said:
Have you ever read the Book of Job?

Yes, but how is that related with my question?

Ciao

- viole

Demonslayer · Sep 28, 2015

viole said:
Yes, but how is that related with my question?
Ciao
- viole

He's going to use Job to show how this "all loving" God constantly brings down untold anguish and horror on his people, and needs no justification to do so. But your miscarriage question is an excellent one. Seems odd God is so angry about abortions, yet causes thousands of miscarriages and still births every day. Mysterious ways I guess.

maxfreakout · Sep 28, 2015

Deist Mentor said:
Some believe that God controls everything, and that everything happens according to His will.

This is the only logical conclusion of God's existence, free will is illogical, absurd and impossible. God *created* everything, therefore God created all my acts of will during my lifetime. I am writing this post *only* because God determined that i would write this post before time started.

Deist Mentor said:
They will go as far as to refuse medical treatment, blood transfusions, etc. Their attitude is that if it is God's will, then they will be saved, cured, not robbed, not in a car crash

These ^ people you refer to are completely and stupidly missing the point of determinism (God's cybernetic transcendence) by assuming that they can genuinely *choose* to refuse a blood transfusion, or that God wouldn't choose to end their lives in a car crash

If God determines that a person will be in a car crash, that person *will* be in a car crash. Similarly if God determines that a person will refuse a blood transfusion, that person *will* refuse a blood transfusion. It is logically absurd to believe that God controls everything *and* that I can choose to refuse a blood transfusion.

Deist Mentor said:
According to Revelation 20:11-15, the dead are raised from their graves and judged according to their deeds [actions]. But if God controls everything, why is a judgment necessary since He would be judging what He caused in the first place? Are humans really nothing more than automatons...mere robots?

Human individuals are cybernetic puppets of the Divine Puppet-master, all our actions, thoughts, beliefs etc are injected into us from a source that is entirely beyond our control. However God makes us believe that we are free willing morally responsible agents, we are powerless puppets being injected with a belief that we possess genuine moral agency.

This is why Jesus the Godman had to be crucified. God is ultimately responsible for all human action, which means that God is the creator of all human sin. So God had to pay the moral penalty for being the author of all sin. Jesus' blood paid that moral penalty, - Jesus as God was justly punished for the sins of mankind, while Jesus as man was sinless and therefore unjustly punished.

viole · Sep 28, 2015

Demonslayer said:
He's going to use Job to show how this "all loving" God constantly brings down untold anguish and horror on his people, and needs no justification to do so. But your miscarriage question is an excellent one. Seems odd God is so angry about abortions, yet causes thousands of miscarriages and still births every day. Mysterious ways I guess.

Well yes. I got that, i think. But if you are right, then the argument fails on so many ways that it would painful to list.

Just to mention one: does God like to test the faith of people who believe in a competing god to start with?

Ciao

- viole

Demonslayer · Sep 28, 2015

This is the only logical conclusion of God's existence, free will is illogical, absurd and impossible.

Are you a Calvinist? That's the only denomination I've spoken with who believe in pure determinism.

I don't believe in God, but if I did I think I'd have to fall in this camp. Free Will makes no sense if you believe in the God that knows everything that is going to happen.

If God determines that a person will be in a car crash, that person *will* be in a car crash. Similarly if God determines that a person will refuse a blood transfusion, that person *will* refuse a blood transfusion. It is logically absurd to believe that God controls everything *and* that I can choose to refuse a blood transfusion.

Exactly right, this is why I bristle when people talk about "miracles." I got in a motorcycle accident some years ago and I can't tell you how many religious friends said "God is looking out for you" or "that you survived is a miracle."

What? God already knew a) that I was going to get into that crash and b) that I would survive it. How is it a miracle? Unless for some reason God originally intended for me to die, but then at the last minute changed his mind? Can God change his mind? If so, God does not know everything because for eons he thought I was going to die in that crash.

Neo Deist · Sep 28, 2015

rusra02 said:
To claim that God is responsible for the mess mankind is in is to ignore what he Bible says at 1 John 5:19; "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." Satan is ruling this world, and he offered it all to Jesus Christ: "Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish." (Luke 4:6) So what is taking place has been Satan's doing, not God's. Therefore, the unscriptural doctrine of predestination is false, just as you infer, IMO.

While I agree with you about predestination, I don't agree about Satan ruling this world. My God is all powerful, and for Satan to rebel and rule over this world means one of two things: God allows it, or the concept of Satan in traditional Christianity is false.

Neo Deist · Sep 28, 2015

maxfreakout said:
This is why Jesus the Godman had to be crucified. God is ultimately responsible for all human action, which means that God is the creator of all human sin. So God had to pay the moral penalty for being the author of all sin. Jesus' blood paid that moral penalty, - Jesus as God was justly punished for the sins of mankind, while Jesus as man was sinless and therefore unjustly punished.

Drivel.

God as the creator, is an all powerful being. If He wanted to forgive sin, all He has to do is snap His divine fingers. The concept of a blood sacrifice is human and dates back thousands of years.

Demonslayer · Sep 28, 2015

Jesus the Godman
LOL at "the Godman." Reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live "makin' copies" sketch with Rob Schneider.

"look who's here, it's the Godman, The Godster, the God-meister, makin' copies!"

JoStories · Sep 28, 2015

Guy Threepwood said:
Does a loving parent grant a child every possible wish, prevent them from making any mistakes?

We want them to choose 'good' over 'bad' for themselves, and 'good' cannot be chosen if there is no choice

When that child is very young ,they need guidance but as they age, not so much, so when it was that my daughter called 911 for 'fun' and made up something, I let her be arrested and have to do community service, etc. Furthermore, what is good and bad?? Based on whose understanding? You, I suspect, would base that on the Bible which I don't hold in the same light as you. Therefore, what I may have taught my children had nothing to do with Biblical tenets. I believe in trust and I don;t see your version of God giving you much of that.

Guy Threepwood · Sep 28, 2015

JoStories said:
When that child is very young ,they need guidance but as they age, not so much, so when it was that my daughter called 911 for 'fun' and made up something, I let her be arrested and have to do community service, etc. Furthermore, what is good and bad?? Based on whose understanding? You, I suspect, would base that on the Bible which I don't hold in the same light as you. Therefore, what I may have taught my children had nothing to do with Biblical tenets. I believe in trust and I don;t see your version of God giving you much of that.

I take your point, but the same principle applies here does it not? I'm sure your daughter didn't always appreciate the love behind your intentions right?

So too we are children to God, as long as we are on Earth, we have lessons to learn. Which means we must have the free will to fail and suffer the consequences- as we all do to some extent.

Your morals quite likely are based on the Bible, perhaps not, but where did your parents and grandparents get the morals they passed onto you?

If God Controls Everything...

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