Can I contradict God?

Nakosis · Sep 10, 2015

dust1n said:
What does it matter? I'm not God.

If you can determine your future or leave it undetermined, God certainly is capable of doing that as well.

Wait, what? How can one determine a future if there is no future to know? Let's say God was determined for the people who killed Jesus to actually kill Jesus. How can he determine it if he can't know the actions of the people because they have a free will, and they haven't acted yet. How can know the future actions of people. Remember, God didn't kill Jesus, people, with their free will, did.

Just like your (imaginary? kids), they are not always left to their own freewill. It's up to the parent when to allow their kids to exercise their freewill or not.

So how does God determine the future actions of people with free will?

God, being omnipotent could take away freewill if God needed to to make something happen. Probably wouldn't have to though. Folks aren't that difficult to manipulate. If I knew you well enough, even I could probably figure how to get you to do exactly what I wanted you to do. Your autonomy would remain intact. People tend to have a willingness to be controlled by their emotions and desires.

If I determine their future, than they can't determine it themselves, can they?

Exactly. That doesn't mean however you are always going to determining their future.

dogfishparisi · Sep 11, 2015

I do not see any inconsistency between free will and the concept of God. Conceptually, God is beyond human knowledge. We speak of God, and what not... but we have no recourse except for our tiny spheres of observation. Free will is our ability to plot our own course, but the God concept leaves little room for the notion that our actions will be unknown. If God knows what causes and effects are cascading down in the physical realm of life and matter than it stands to reason that God knows what we will do before we do- but it is not predestined.
In this same frame of thinking you can see how sometimes human action upholds the desired course or 'will of god' while other times it diverges and creates adverse effects.

Milton Platt · Sep 11, 2015

Nada said:
According to the holy scriptures God cannot sin.He is good.Sin is what occurs when God's laws are broken.

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

How do you know the scriptures are truthful.....that your god is truthful, other than his own declaration? How do you verify his truthfulness? You can't quote from scripture to do it.....that's just what he wanted you to know. How do you know for sure that it isn't all a big charade and he is laughing his *** off right now?

Milton Platt · Sep 11, 2015

dogfishparisi said:
I do not see any inconsistency between free will and the concept of God. Conceptually, God is beyond human knowledge. We speak of God, and what not... but we have no recourse except for our tiny spheres of observation. Free will is our ability to plot our own course, but the God concept leaves little room for the notion that our actions will be unknown. If God knows what causes and effects are cascading down in the physical realm of life and matter than it stands to reason that God knows what we will do before we do- but it is not predestined.
In this same frame of thinking you can see how sometimes human action upholds the desired course or 'will of god' while other times it diverges and creates adverse effects.

So in your opinion, god does not exercise control over human endeavors? What about the constant interference chronicled in the Bible?

dogfishparisi · Sep 12, 2015

Milton Platt said:
So in your opinion, god does not exercise control over human endeavors? What about the constant interference chronicled in the Bible?

Well, in order to believe God exercises control over mankind (beyond the laws on the natural world ) one can always site the Bible. But realistically, it is quite clear we should not take all scripture literally. Psalms where songs sung in praise. Proverbs are tidbits of pragmatic wisdom. Genesis has 2 conflicting creation stories. Exodus is a historical narrative. They are all different and should be read with foreknowledge of their origins.
The Bible is a tremendous resource, but the notion that it is literally is absurd. Believing this stifles ones ability to delve into the rich and diverse lessons contained within, and ironically becomes the justifications for deception.

Milton Platt · Sep 12, 2015

dogfishparisi said:
Well, in order to believe God exercises control over mankind (beyond the laws on the natural world ) one can always site the Bible. But realistically, it is quite clear we should not take all scripture literally. Psalms where songs sung in praise. Proverbs are tidbits of pragmatic wisdom. Genesis has 2 conflicting creation stories. Exodus is a historical narrative. They are all different and should be read with foreknowledge of their origins.
The Bible is a tremendous resource, but the notion that it is literally is absurd. Believing this stifles ones ability to delve into the rich and diverse lessons contained within, and ironically becomes the justifications for deception.

But there is no indication that the various authors meant anything to be interpreted. They provide no uniform basis for such interpretation and how something is interpreted comes down to personal opinion and nothing more.
If personal opinion is the basis for what you believe, then just sidestep the book and go with personal opinion.

dogfishparisi · Sep 12, 2015

Milton Platt said:
But there is no indication that the various authors meant anything to be interpreted. They provide no uniform basis for such interpretation and how something is interpreted comes down to personal opinion and nothing more.
If personal opinion is the basis for what you believe, then just sidestep the book and go with personal opinion.

What I believe develops through constant research and contemplation. The Bible is comprised of many texts, by many authors, throughout an extended period of time. Understanding this puts an individual in a unique position to glean information that may otherwise be misunderstood or missed completely. This is a fact.

Milton Platt · Sep 12, 2015

dogfishparisi said:
What I believe develops through constant research and contemplation. The Bible is comprised of many texts, by many authors, throughout an extended period of time. Understanding this puts an individual in a unique position to glean information that may otherwise be misunderstood or missed completely. This is a fact.

More importantly, it means there could be massive misinterpretation and misrepresentation of what the authors meant when they wrote the text. What the scriptures mean is interpreted differently by different people, different groups, and changes over time. Many of those are mutually exclusive. What Universally accepted method is there to arrive at a precise meaning? There is none. Worse, we do not even have the original text and cannot be certain of the authors.

Unification · Sep 12, 2015

dust1n said:
Just a quick question, something I was mulling over for a bit today. When I say can I contradict him, I'm asking if it is possible to act in such a way that God could not have foreseen my actions. Can I behave different then how God thought I was going to act in the future?

Thanks.

Your life is a series of being in the present.

"God" is inside of you. Always in the present.

You have a triune mind...the conscious, subconscious, ego/unconscious. They are warring and trying to pull you in different directions(thinking in your head) Really, all you're doing is contradicting and tricking yourself. Your mind is what's in the past and future.

You are always choosing in the present no matter what you do.

dogfishparisi · Sep 12, 2015

Milton Platt said:
More importantly, it means there could be massive misinterpretation and misrepresentation of what the authors meant when they wrote the text. What the scriptures mean is interpreted differently by different people, different groups, and changes over time. Many of those are mutually exclusive. What Universally accepted method is there to arrive at a precise meaning? There is none. Worse, we do not even have the original text and cannot be certain of the authors.

What you say is true.But It isn't a matter of right or wrong interpretation unless you believe it is a factual accounting, the literal word of God. Most scholars believe that the authors where, or felt, divinely inspired. Barring extremist leanings the Bible is a very positive influence. It can be cherry picked to justify almost any stance, but when a stance is taken the truth of what the Bible says is revealed only through study.

Unification · Sep 12, 2015

Milton Platt said:
More importantly, it means there could be massive misinterpretation and misrepresentation of what the authors meant when they wrote the text. What the scriptures mean is interpreted differently by different people, different groups, and changes over time. Many of those are mutually exclusive. What Universally accepted method is there to arrive at a precise meaning? There is none. Worse, we do not even have the original text and cannot be certain of the authors.

Universal: they are all metaphysical, and semantics of words for different cultures that represent something within, nothing external to the human body and mind. Every being has a mind, brain, and body. Poetic inner writing that has been made fundamental, outward, literal, historical that has created divide and as a weapon for control and oppression.

Unification · Sep 12, 2015

Unification said:
Universal: they are all metaphysical, and semantics of words for different cultures that represent something within, nothing external to the human body and mind. Every being has a mind, brain, and body. Poetic inner writing that has been made fundamental, outward, literal, historical that has created divide and as a weapon for control and oppression.

Most are worried about building and constructing literal building temples, outward growth while few are building and constructing their mind temple, inward growth. Then again, the first would have to destroy their own temple(mind) in order to rebuild their temple(mind.) Neurological plasticity is too painful for many.

Milton Platt · Sep 12, 2015

dogfishparisi said:
What you say is true.But It isn't a matter of right or wrong interpretation unless you believe it is a factual accounting, the literal word of God. Most scholars believe that the authors where, or felt, divinely inspired. Barring extremist leanings the Bible is a very positive influence. It can be cherry picked to justify almost any stance, but when a stance is taken the truth of what the Bible says is revealed only through study.

You supported my point....the Bible has been studied for a very long time and there is no consensus even now. It is impossible to know which interpretation is correct. Everyone who has a studied interpretation has in fact studied the Bible. many of those who reject the whole thing have studied the bible.Which person that has "studied the Bible" is correct??? I doubt "most scholars believe the authors were or are divinely inspired". It is possible the authors "thought" they were, but there is no justification for believing they were. There is no evidence to support that claim (I mean divine inspiration). And what about the other religions with conflicting views which also have "divinely inspired" writings?

dogfishparisi · Sep 12, 2015

Milton Platt said:
You supported my point....the Bible has been studied for a very long time and there is no consensus even now. It is impossible to know which interpretation is correct. Everyone who has a studied interpretation has in fact studied the Bible. many of those who reject the whole thing have studied the bible.Which person that has "studied the Bible" is correct??? I doubt "most scholars believe the authors were or are divinely inspired". It is possible the authors "thought" they were, but there is no justification for believing they were. There is no evidence to support that claim (I mean divine inspiration). And what about the other religions with conflicting views which also have "divinely inspired" writings?

I stated that most scholars believe the authors where, or felt, divinely inspired- which is exactly the same stance you've taken. Maybe my wording could have been better.
The thing is this- the Bible, being a compilation of many texts by many authors over a large swath of time is going to reflect many perspectives, many viewpoints on repetitive issues, and of course will appear contradictory if one does not understand the diverse origins of the texts.

Milton Platt · Sep 12, 2015

FearGod said:
I don't believe that our actions are predetermined, it means that we are 100% robots but the fact we aren't.

So your view is that god is not omniscient?

Milton Platt · Sep 12, 2015

dogfishparisi said:
I stated that most scholars believe the authors where, or felt, divinely inspired- which is exactly the same stance you've taken. Maybe my wording could have been better.
The thing is this- the Bible, being a compilation of many texts by many authors over a large swath of time is going to reflect many perspectives, many viewpoints on repetitive issues, and of course will appear contradictory if one does not understand the diverse origins of the texts.

But if it is supposed to be divinely inspired word of god, then why would it be impossible to understand for all but a few select people who have spent their lives studying ancient texts and languages? Is god implying that only advanced scholarship in ancient languages and civilizations will allow you to know what the heck he was saying? Why would he not want to be universally understood?
As to the scholars, you are lumping two different things together as to what they believe. Do they all believe the authors WERE divinely inspired.....or do they mostly believe the authors THOUGHT the were divinely inspired??? There is a vast difference between the two claims and you are throwing them together. Add to that there is a vast number of scholars who would tell you that they are just stories and the god they speak of is just mythology. I can THINK that I am devastatingly handsome and have a net worth of billions, but unfortunately, the facts say otherwise. The fact that an anonymous person ages ago thought god told them something holds no water at all.

FearGod · Sep 12, 2015

Milton Platt said:
So your view is that god is not omniscient?

Omniscient doesn't mean he knows what i'm going to do after 10 minutes but he knows what i.m thinking by now
and what i'm planning to do by now, i don't know why people interpret the word omniscient as to be the knowledge
of the future, do you have a verse that God says he knows what a person will do by tomorrow...etc

Milton Platt · Sep 12, 2015

FearGod said:
Omniscient doesn't mean he knows what i'm going to do after 10 minutes but he knows what i.m thinking by now
and what i'm planning to do by now, i don't know why people interpret the word omniscient as to be the knowledge
of the future, do you have a verse that God says he knows what a person will do by tomorrow...etc

omniscient means all knowing. In other words having all knowledge. If he doesn't know what you will be doing in 10 minutes, he is not all knowing. Maybe there is a better word?

FearGod · Sep 12, 2015

Milton Platt said:
omniscient means all knowing. In other words having all knowledge. If he doesn't know what you will be doing in 10 minutes, he is not all knowing. Maybe there is a better word?

All knowing doesn't involve time, why including future knowledge.

Milton Platt · Sep 12, 2015

FearGod said:
Omniscient doesn't mean he knows what i'm going to do after 10 minutes but he knows what i.m thinking by now
and what i'm planning to do by now, i don't know why people interpret the word omniscient as to be the knowledge
of the future, do you have a verse that God says he knows what a person will do by tomorrow...etc

Here ya go......
“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

How's that?

Can I contradict God?

Non-Binary Physicalist

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Freedom Of Mind

Well-Known Member

Freedom Of Mind

Well-Known Member