I'm not baptized. Am i a Christian?

MrMrdevincamus · Sep 4, 2015

sojourner said:
Correct. But the identity of being a follower of Jesus is secondary to the foundational identity of being a creature of love.

I have to disagree. Yes your interpertation or view sounds wonderful, but I do not see any scriptural support for that claim.

And that path hinges on two things: 1) loving God, 2) loving neighbor as oneself. Because I think that "being a Christian" is secondary to "being a creature of love." Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. That, to me, has very little to do with "believing in Jesus," or "accepting Jesus." "Belief" and "acceptance" are metaphorical ways of saying that Jesus' way is the way of love, that Jesus' truth is the truth of love, and that Jesus' life is the life of love. Any time we love, we believe in what Jesus taught and lived for. Any time we love, we accept the one thing Jesus thought most important. Jesus isn't the object, but the avatar. There are any number of avatars that can show us the love Jesus wanted us to experience.

So it seems to me that you are saying that salvation can be had by works (Love) ?

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Relevant scripture support that Jesus is the only way to gain eternal life (cut from the web);

"Jesus spoke of Himself as the only way to heaven in several places besides John 14:6. He presented Himself as the object of faith in Matthew 7:21–27. He said His words are life (John 6:63). He promised that those who believe in Him will have eternal life (John 3:14–15). He is the gate of the sheep (John 10:7); the bread of life (John 6:35); and the resurrection (John 11:25). No one else can rightly claim those titles."

sojourner · Sep 4, 2015

MrMrdevincamus said:
Do you have supporting scripture for that claim?

It's all over the place!
Gen. 12:3, Ex. 33:19, Job 42:2, Psalm 22:27, Psalm 65:1-2, Psalm 139:7-8, Psalm 145:8-10, Is. 25:6-8, Is. 45:22-24, Is. 49:6, Jer. 31:33-34, Hos. 11:9, Joel 2:28, Zeph. 3:9, Zech. 2:11, Matt. 5:44, Matt. 8:11, Matt. 12:50, Matt. 18:14, Mark 11:17, Lk. 3:6, Lk. 15:4, Lk. 15:8, Lk. 19:10, Jn. 1:9, Jn. 3:17, Jn. 4:23, Jn. 10:16, Jn. 12:32, Jn. 12:47, Jn. 15:16, Acts 3:21, Acts 10:34, Rom. 3:23, Rom. 5:18, Rom. 8:38-39, Rom. 11:32, 1 Cor. 13:4-8, 1 Cor. 15:22, Eph. 1:9-10, Phil. 2:10-11 Col. 1:19-20, 1 Tim. 1:16, 1 Tim. 2:3-4, 1 Tim. 4:9-10, Titus 2:11, 2 Pet. 2:9, Rev. 5:13, Rev. 21:25.

MrMrdevincamus said:
Verses such as the wages of sin is death and many others show that there may not be a burning hell for humans but those that are not saved are headed towards Sheol, which means 'the grave' among other things.

The verses that speak of God's unfathomable, saving love far, far outweigh those of judgment and condemnation.

MrMrdevincamus said:
That said I am open minded and have changed my mind my life etc if there is reason for that change, so I would be interested in reading your sources etc that led you the belief that everyone will be saved.

This is God's world, and God's will that all be saved. Don't you have faith that, one day, God's will shall happen??

sojourner · Sep 4, 2015

MrMrdevincamus said:
Actually I haven't gave the verse too much consideration! My favorite bible is the apocalyptic writings, this Matt. verse you referenced is parable. Are you asking if Christians should minister to everyone? If so yes, we should minster to those with the most sin first if possible. But if you are asking about the verse specifically, I think it has two meanings and is in parable. The main thing Jesus was doing was demonstrating that our love of Jesus is shown by loving and serving others. See John 15:12

Jesus did not use the parable to show that works are enough for salvation. He was demonstrating some people act like they love God and have a relationship with him by discussing correct things, obeying the commandants but never really changed their life. They don't love others as themselves and Jesus has loved us. This type of parable is repeated in other areas of the bible. Examples; James 2:26, John 4:19. Leviticus 19:18. There is more to this scripture but have I answered your question?

The difference is that true love sacrifices the self, and egotism doesn't. Those who follow laws and formulas, by and large, are doing so to save themselves.

savagewind · Sep 4, 2015

sojourner said:
I think there's a deeper meaning. I hear you saying that to deny Christ is to deny love. I turn it around. To deny Christ is to deny love. You're saying that accepting Christ is the true objective, and that love will follow. I say that love is the true objective, and that love is what Christ embodies. Whether we formally "accept Christ" is immaterial. What's important is that we "live love." To live love is to live the life of love that Jesus lived.

I don't think that to deny Christ is to deny love. To deny Christ is to deny better love. I believe Christ is the surpassing way.
To love without Christ is to glorify humankind. To love with Christ is to glorify God. The objective is to glorify God imho.

sojourner · Sep 4, 2015

MrMrdevincamus said:
I have to disagree. Yes your interpertation or view sounds wonderful, but I do not see any scriptural support for that claim.

God so loved the world? God created us to be in relationship with others -- it's not good for us to be alone. Faith, hope and love abide -- but the greatest is love. You really don't see this? You don't see the self-sacrificial love of Jesus for us in the cross?

MrMrdevincamus said:
So it seems to me that you are saying that salvation can be had by works (Love) ?

Love isn't a "work." It's a paradigm -- a position -- an identity. The fruits of love are often acts toward others. But love, itself, is not an act.

sojourner · Sep 4, 2015

savagewind said:
To love without Christ is to glorify humankind.

To love humankind is to glorify Christ.

savagewind said:
To love with Christ is to glorify God.

To love glorifies God.

savagewind said:
The objective is to glorify God imho.

The objective is to "walk in love, as Christ has loved us, and gave himself for us, an offering and sacrifice to God."

MrMrdevincamus · Sep 4, 2015

Tlaloc said:
The traditional view is that baptism is necessary for salvation. However there are notable Protestant sects which reject that.

Are you a Christian? Depends on whom you ask. In my view deliberately refusing baptism renders whatever Christian faith held as unsalvific.

Are you saying pride is the 'deadly' sin in your last paragraph example?

savagewind · Sep 4, 2015

MrMrdevincamus said:
Actually I haven't gave the verse too much consideration! My favorite bible is the apocalyptic writings, this Matt. verse you referenced is parable. Are you asking if Christians should minister to everyone? If so yes, we should minster to those with the most sin first if possible. But if you are asking about the verse specifically, I think it has two meanings and is in parable. The main thing Jesus was doing was demonstrating that our love of Jesus is shown by loving and serving others. See John 15:12

It is not the doing of fine works I am referring to. It is about what is written "as you have done to the least of these my brothers you have done to me". If the parable means to do good to anyone why is "to the least one of MY brothers" added?

Jesus did not use the parable to show that works are enough for salvation. He was demonstrating some people act like they love God and have a relationship with him by discussing correct things, obeying the commandants but never really changed their life. They don't love others as themselves and Jesus has loved us. This type of parable is repeated in other areas of the bible. Examples; James 2:26, John 4:19. Leviticus 19:18. There is more to this scripture but have I answered your question?

Is that the correct John scripture you wanted to share? How are you applying it?

Why is it written ἀδελφῶν or "brother" referring to a person of the same religious community?
http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm

savagewind · Sep 4, 2015

sojourner said:
To love humankind is to glorify Christ.

No! Not if love is not given in his name

To love glorifies God.

Not from people not believing in God.

The objective is to "walk in love, as Christ has loved us, and gave himself for us, an offering and sacrifice to God."

Christ loved us with a knowledge of God.

savagewind · Sep 4, 2015

sojourner said:
This is God's world,

Psalms 115:16

and God's will that all be saved.

Saved to what? Perhaps it means delivered to the reaping. God's will is that everyone will be well enough to reap. Is it not written a person will reap what is sown?

Don't you have faith that, one day, God's will shall happen??

God's will of peace and life will happen to all those who seek it. I am sure.

Glaurung · Sep 4, 2015

MrMrdevincamus said:
Are you saying pride is the 'deadly' sin in your last paragraph example?

No, I'm saying that baptism (even if only implicit) is necessity for salvation.

MrMrdevincamus · Sep 4, 2015

sojourner said:
God so loved the world? God created us to be in relationship with others -- it's not good for us to be alone. Faith, hope and love abide -- but the greatest is love. You really don't see this? You don't see the self-sacrificial love of Jesus for us in the cross?

I can connect the dots as well as anyone else, but there is no scriptural support for love being the ONLY requirement for being born again. You are taking artistic license by an intellectual guess mixed with wishful thinking that love alone is enough for salvation. I do not see Jesus saying just love everyone and you will receive salvation. Love is an important PART of gaining salvation, and maybe its a part of every thing a christian does, still salvation requires more. Maybe you are right, nothing is 100% certain, however that is placing a lot of faith on something that is not in the bible. As I said love is a very important component of salvation, but unless there is repentance there will be no salvation.

Love isn't a "work." It's a paradigm -- a position -- an identity. The fruits of love are often acts toward others. But love, itself, is not an act.

You are playing fast and loose with words, lol. but I think you are sincere and I don't think you are being malicious etc. As a want to be artist I admire passion, so I do admire your passion for the subject. Still I must disagree. As I said we are close, however, I can not even though I want to say love is enough. So, we seem to be at a stalemate, at least in that area

MrMrdevincamus · Sep 4, 2015

Tlaloc said:
No, I'm saying that baptism (even if only implicit) is necessity for salvation.

Got it!

savagewind · Sep 4, 2015

sojourner said:
To love humankind is to glorify Christ.

To love glorifies God.

The objective is to "walk in love, as Christ has loved us, and gave himself for us, an offering and sacrifice to God."

Matthew 5:46 Matthew 21:32 Luke 6:32

sojourner · Sep 4, 2015

savagewind said:
No! Not if love is not given in his name

Love is his name.

savagewind said:
Not from people not believing in God.

Why does one have to "believe in" God in order to glorify God? Agape is agape. One shows forth God whenever one participates in agape.

savagewind said:
Christ loved us with a knowledge of God.

Loving is knowledge of God, for God is love.

sojourner · Sep 4, 2015

Tlaloc said:
No, I'm saying that baptism (even if only implicit) is necessity for salvation.

Really? So, then, salvation is a product of what we do (being baptized). Got it.

sojourner · Sep 4, 2015

savagewind said:
Psalms 115:16

Psalm 24:1

savagewind said:
Saved to what? Perhaps it means delivered to the reaping. God's will is that everyone will be well enough to reap. Is it not written a person will reap what is sown?

Saved to full reconciliation with God.

savagewind said:
God's will of peace and life will happen to all those who seek it. I am sure.

So Christ's universal sacrifice to save the world isn't efficacious, after all, and God's will is powerless. Got it.

savagewind · Sep 4, 2015

sojourner said:
Love is his name.

Why does one have to "believe in" God in order to glorify God? Agape is agape. One shows forth God whenever one participates in agape.

Loving is knowledge of God, for God is love.

OK. Please explain Matthew 5:46 for us.

savagewind · Sep 4, 2015

sojourner said:
Psalm 24:1

This may not be saying what you want it to say. It seems to me the word "belongs" was added. I am certian that God's will is for God's people to manage Earth. That is what I think Psalm 24:1 means.

Saved to full reconciliation with God.

What will be left of the people hating God and God's people? 1 Corinthians 3:14,15

So Christ's universal sacrifice to save the world isn't efficacious, after all, and God's will is powerless. Got it.

Many saved is called powerless by you? Why?
Why not tell us why it is written that we should seek God and righteousness? Zephaniah 2:3 Psalms 22:26 Isaiah 11:4 Matthew 7:7,8

sojourner · Sep 4, 2015

MrMrdevincamus said:
I can connect the dots as well as anyone else, but there is no scriptural support for love being the ONLY requirement for being born again.

Formulas are useful only as sacramentals -- that is, only as they point to God. If the formula isn't effective in doing that, it means nothing. Holy water is just "wet" to an atheist. When one dies to one's ego, one is then born to full love. It's the sacrifice of the cross that shows forth the selfless love.

MrMrdevincamus said:
You are taking artistic license by an intellectual guess mixed with wishful thinking that love alone is enough for salvation.

No, I'm saying that there is adequate biblical, cultural and external support for the view that love is salvation.

MrMrdevincamus said:
I do not see Jesus saying just love everyone and you will receive salvation.

Luke 10:27-28, my friend. "Love God with your whole being, and love neighbor as self. Do this and you will live."

MrMrdevincamus said:
that is placing a lot of faith on something that is not in the bible.

It's all over the bible.

MrMrdevincamus said:
love is a very important component of salvation, but unless there is repentance there will be no salvation.

Repentance is an act of self-sacrificial love.

MrMrdevincamus said:
You are playing fast and loose with words

Love isn't a position, or an identity, or a paradigm out of which we view the world and others, and live life?? Really??

MrMrdevincamus said:
I can not even though I want to say love is enough. So, we seem to be at a stalemate, at least in that area

In what way isn't love "enough?" What more is there?? Love is the relationship to which we are all called with God, with others, with the earth, with the Spirit. It's that relationship that forms the ekklesia. It's that paradigm that wrought the work of the cross. It's that paradigm that caused Jesus to have compassion on those for whom the law said there should be no compassion. Whenever we truly love, we are doing and being everything Christ asked of us.

I'm not baptized. Am i a Christian?

Not baptized, am I a Christian?

Yes, you are a Christian

No, you are not a Christian

Although not a Christian, you may be a Jesus adherent etc.

Non-baptized means no Jesus adherence, in any form

Other/explain

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