• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Textual Criticism Versus Providential Preservation?

13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. (Rev 13:1 KJV)


The reasons scholars give for rejecting "and I [John] stood" and preferring "and he [Dragon] stood" illustrates their inconsistency, the unsoundness of their methodology.


For example, re Rev. 13:1 the textual critical note says:


tc Grk ἐστάθη (estathē, “he stood”). The reading followed by the translation is attested by the better MSS (픓47 א A C 1854 2344 2351 pc lat syh) while the majority of MSS (051 픐 vgmss syph co) have the reading ἐστάθην (estathēn, “I stood”)-Biblical Studies Press. (2006). The NET Bible First Edition


But elsewhere M [Egyptian Coptic], which supports εσταθην "is a better witness in the Apocalypse than elsewhere in the NT"-Beale, G. K. (1999). The Book Of Revelation: A Commentary On The Greek Text (p. 681). Grand Rapids, MI; Carlisle, Cumbria: W.B. Eerdmans; Paternoster Press.


So joining the majority text are the majority of critical texts used to evaluate it, including the Egyptian Coptic which is very early and considered weighty in Revelation. Still the Majority Text is overruled. If the Majority reading somehow offended the context or grammar, one might understand the objection. But its the supposed "superior reading" that offends the grammar, and context. The appearance of bias is unmistakable.


The natural antecedent of "he" in "he stood", is Jesus Christ, not the Dragon who is much further back:


17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And JESUS CHRIST stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns... PROPOSED Rev 12:17-13:1.


In addition, what need is there for a transition? Rev. 12:17 clearly ends that phase of the revelation, there is no doubt John is moving on to something different.


Critically speaking, which is more likely? John imprisoned on the island of Patmos informs us he was standing on the seashore (cp καὶ ἔστην καὶ ἰδοὺ Eze 43:6 LXT) when seeing the Beast rise from the sea; or he is adding an unnecessary and confusing clause to transition to a new Beast? It is confusing as standing on the shore of the sea is passive and is not figurative of anything affecting the Beast rising from the sea.


Confirming this, John explicitly says the Dragon powers the Beast (Rev. 13:4), giving the probable reason why he receives worship. Nothing in the text implies John interprets "and the Dragon stood on the sand of the sea."


It is not "critically sound" to prefer the less probable reason for an "anomaly"---that a scribe would add "ν" writing ἐστάθην (I stood) while reading ἐστάθη (he stood). As they themselves argue everywhere else, it's much more likely letters (and words etc.) are dropped.


Finally, Victorinus the Bishop of Pettau who died around 303 AD during the Diocletian persecutions, in a 15th century manuscript copy of his commentary on the Apocalypse (Ottobonianus Lat. 3288 A), reads "And I stood".



To sum up, belief in providential preservation of scripture is no less scientific than believing in textual criticism, but it certainly is more likely God preserved His inspired Word, than logical fallacies of men result in the true text.
 
Last edited:

Alitheia Aylso

Philosopher
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. (Rev 13:1 KJV)


The reasons scholars give for rejecting "and I [John] stood" and preferring "and he [Dragon] stood" illustrates their inconsistency, the unsoundness of their methodology. Their alleged preference for the "oldest texts" isn't followed here as they reject the Egyptian Coptic "I stood" for newer texts that read "he stood".


Moreover, it is not "critically sound" to prefer the less probable reason for an "anomaly"---that a scribe would add "ν" writing ἐστάθην (I stood) while reading ἐστάθη(he stood). As they themselves argue everywhere else, it's much more likely letters (and words etc.) are dropped.


Furthermore, they ignore the natural antecedent of "he" in "he stood", which is Jesus Christ, not the Dragon who is much further back:


17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns... (Rev 12:17-13:1 KJV)


In addition, what need is there for a transition? Rev. 12:17 clearly ends that phase of the revelation, there is no doubt John is moving on to something different.


Critically speaking, which is more likely? John imprisoned on the island of Patmos informs us he was standing on the seashore (cp καὶ ἔστην καὶ ἰδοὺ Eze 43:6 LXT) when seeing the Beast rise from the sea; or he is adding an unnecessary and confusing clause to transition to a new Beast? It is confusing as standing on the shore of the sea is passive and is not figurative of anything affecting the Beast rising from the sea.


Confirming this, John explicitly says the Dragon powers the Beast (Rev. 13:4), giving the probable reason why he receives worship. Nothing in the text implies John interprets "and the Dragon stood on the sand of the sea."


Finally, Victorinus the Bishop of Pettau who died around 303 AD during the Diocletian persecutions, in a 15th century manuscript copy of his commentary on the Apocalypse (Ottobonianus Lat. 3288 A), reads "And I stood".



To sum up, belief in providential preservation of scripture is no less scientific than believing in textual criticism, but it certainly is more likely God preserved His inspired Word, than logical fallacies of men result in the true text.

Assuming that these claims (with no citations) are true. Then you are saying that John stood and not the dragon. Therefore all critiques of the bible are invalid..... I have a question for you, why is the Bible valid?
 
Assuming that these claims (with no citations) are true. Then you are saying that John stood and not the dragon. Therefore all critiques of the bible are invalid..... I have a question for you, why is the Bible valid?

I did precisely what it is written I should do:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Rom 10:9-11 KJV)

And it occurred precisely as promised, I was not ashamed, I was saved.
 

Alitheia Aylso

Philosopher
I did precisely what it is written I should do:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Rom 10:9-11 KJV)

And it occurred precisely as promised, I was not ashamed, I was saved.

So you are saying that you believe in the Bible because the Bible says to?
 
So you are saying that you believe in the Bible because the Bible says to?

That would beg the question, be circular.

An analogy. The directions say take two aspirin, and headache is gone. I took two, headache went.

Then Alitheia asks "Why do you believe the directions?"

I reply: I did as instructed, and what it promised would occur if I did, happened.

Rationally, I can do no less.
 
Last edited:

Alitheia Aylso

Philosopher
That would beg the question, be circular.

An analogy. The directions say take two aspirin, and headache is gone. I took two, headache went.

Then Alitheia asks "Why do you believe the directions?"

I reply: I did as instructed, and what it promised would occur if I did, happened.

Rationally, I can do no less.

Circular logic makes no sense.

If I have a book that says this book is true, does that mean that it is true?
 
Then aside from the Bible why do you believe in the Bible?

Apart from the Bible being the perfect empirical experiment proving it is a divine book, and its historical and scientific accuracy, even acknowledging the quantum nature of our reality, there was the certainty of my born again salvation experience, which you are desperately seeking to evade.

Evasion of facts results in fallacious conclusions.

As was the case with aspirin, the proof is in the doing, believing.

Asking questions, ad infinitum is analogous to the textual critics. Your premise is unproved, even if I were unable to answer a question of yours, that would NOT prove you right at all.

You beg the question of your own position, even to yourself.

Why engage in such self delusion? Its time for you to repent and believe in Jesus, the Eternal Son of God, as LORD.

To prepare for that, read the Gospels of Christ, any version. They are sufficient to guide you to Christ. To salvation.

As a former left leaning agnostic, near atheist, you might consider the road I traveled.

Creationist arguments first, just to correct the disinformation you have been fed. Then, when you realize the likelihood God exists is overwhelming, read the four gospels of Christ. Christs words have a divine power to them that cannot be described, they must be experienced.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12 KJV)

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. -Almighty God Jesus Christ our LORD (Rev 3:20 KJV)

We love him, because he first loved us. (1Jo 4:19 KJV)

1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and you will delight in the richest of fare.

...

6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

(Isa 55:1-9 NIV)
 
Last edited:

Alitheia Aylso

Philosopher
Apart from the Bible being the perfect empirical experiment proving it is a divine book, and its historical and scientific accuracy, even acknowledging the quantum nature of our reality, there was the certainty of my born again salvation experience, which you are desperately seeking to evade.

Evasion of facts results in fallacious conclusions.

As was the case with aspirin, the proof is in the doing, believing.

Asking questions, ad infinitum is analogous to the textual critics. Your premise is unproved, even if I were unable to answer a question of yours, that would NOT prove you right at all.

You beg the question of your own position, even to yourself.

Why engage in such self delusion? Its time for you to repent and believe in Jesus, the Eternal Son of God, as LORD.

To prepare for that, read the Gospels of Christ, any version. They are sufficient to guide you to Christ. To salvation.

As a former left leaning agnostic, near atheist, you might consider the road I traveled.

Creationist arguments first, just to correct the disinformation you have been fed. Then, when you realize the likelihood God exists is overwhelming, read the four gospels of Christ. Christs words have a divine power to them that cannot be described, they must be experienced.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12 KJV)

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. -Almighty God Jesus Christ our LORD (Rev 3:20 KJV)

We love him, because he first loved us. (1Jo 4:19 KJV)

1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and you will delight in the richest of fare.

...

6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

(Isa 55:1-9 NIV)

If it has such historical and scientific accuracy then how come in is not treated as fact by the historical or scientific communities?
 
If it has such historical and scientific accuracy then how come in is not treated as fact by the historical or scientific communities?

I'd rather eat bugs than answer endless interrogatories, asked in hope of proving my positions wrong.

Asking endless questions is a waste of time, nothing is proved by asking questions.

And, it was so easy to Google the answers, I am certain my non-response will do you no material harm at all.

More than enough scientists and archaeologists testify the Bible is accurate in both disciplines.

http://www.facingthechallenge.org/arch2.php

http://www.icr.org/scientific-accuracy

Whenever it pertains to our reality, its nature or history, it is precisely right. But its not a science or history book, so there is lots of other material treating spiritual matters. Or wisdom etc. Also in these it is 100% accurate.


When you tire of being alone and lost, do as I did, go to Jesus and beg His forgiveness:

37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
(Joh 7:37-38 NKJ)

19 We love Him because He first loved us. (1Jo 4:19 NKJ)
 
Last edited:

Alitheia Aylso

Philosopher
I'd rather eat bugs than answer endless interrogatories, asked in hope of proving my positions wrong.

Asking endless questions is a waste of time, nothing is proved by asking questions.

And, it was so easy to Google the answers, I am certain my non-response will do you no material harm at all.

More than enough scientists and archaeologists testify the Bible is accurate in both disciplines.

http://www.facingthechallenge.org/arch2.php

http://www.icr.org/scientific-accuracy

Whenever it pertains to our reality, its nature or history, it is precisely right. But its not a science or history book, so there is lots of other material treating spiritual matters. Or wisdom etc. Also in these it is 100% accurate.


When you tire of being alone and lost, do as I did, go to Jesus and beg His forgiveness:

37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
(Joh 7:37-38 NKJ)

19 We love Him because He first loved us. (1Jo 4:19 NKJ)

If you have all the answers then why do you fear questions?

Your websites do not have peer reviewed studies.
 

Alitheia Aylso

Philosopher
Boredom isn't fear. The quality of your research is shallow and obsolete. Peer review has been exposed repeatedly as a fraud. The latest example:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/28/s...not-as-strong-as-claimed-study-says.html?_r=1

I am Trump when I want to be. You won't win a personal attack. Its time for you to move on.

Peer review among psychologist MAY be inaccurate. Does not mean that you do not need a peer review process to validate your claim.

I never made a personal attack, you simply like to believe that you are a victim.

Can you please provide some true evidence.
 
Peer review among psychologist MAY be inaccurate. Does not mean that you do not need a peer review process to validate your claim.

I never made a personal attack, you simply like to believe that you are a victim.

Can you please provide some true evidence.

I once was agnostic.

An agnostic is like a dog chasing its tail, endlessly.

They don't know, don't believe anyone else knows, yet they continue to act like they know the others don't know, and imagine they can prove they know, by asking questions they don't know, endlessly.

What a self-contradiction for an agnostic!

After searching analysis, I realized there were three kinds of agnostics in the world: Those who run away when things begin to happen, those who watch what happened, and those who wonder what just happened.

It would be hilarious, if one is easily amused.

I'm not.

But, I'm no longer an agnostic.
 
Last edited:

Alitheia Aylso

Philosopher
An agnostic is like a dog chasing its tail, endlessly. I know, I once was agnostic.

They don't know, don't believe anyone else knows, yet they continue to act like they know the others don't know, and imagine they can prove they know, by asking questions, endlessly.

What a self-contradiction for an agnostic!

After searching analysis, I realized there were three kinds of agnostics in the world: Those who run away when things begin to happen, those who watch what happened, and those who wonder what just happened.

It would be hilarious, if one is easily amused.

I'm not.

But, then again, I'm no longer an agnostic.

I have found that there is no proof for the existence or nonexistence of deity and until he show me otherwise I will not change.

So then you have no answer?
 
I have found that there is no proof for the existence or nonexistence of deity and until he show me otherwise I will not change.

So then you have no answer?

One day, I and my fellow agnostics, decided to change a light bulb. One had to ponder the existential nature of the bulb, another the step ladder. Still another, the ceiling upon which the light fixture was attached. We couldn't proceed, no one could possibly know the truth of these things. So in the dark we sat, till a Christian came along, turned on the light. Evidently, it was never out, someone forgot to flip the switch!
 
A correction to: So joining the majority text are the majority of critical texts used to evaluate it,

So joining the majority text are some weighty critical texts used to evaluate it, specifically the Egyptian Coptic which is very early and considered weighty in Revelation. Still the Majority Text is overruled. If the Majority reading somehow offended the context or grammar, one might understand the objection. But its the supposed "superior reading" that offends the grammar, and context. The appearance of bias is unmistakable.


An addition:

Aune citing Bousset [1906] argues:

As an introduction to 13:1–18, however, the passage is awkward (reflected in the textual variants) since one would expect more details to be given regarding how the dragon summoned forth the beast (Bousset [1906] 358).-Aune, D. E. (1998). Revelation 6–16 (Vol. 52B, p. 732). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

However, standing on the shore is passive, suggesting nothing about the Beast, including how it is summoned. Given the explicit statement this Beast is powered by the Dragon, who needs more details regarding its summoning? (Rev. 13:4). So critics have turned this on its head, rather than a copyist adding "v" to agree with "I saw", its they who drop the "v" to change the text to read "he stood", and then they are forced to ignore the natural antecedent ("Jesus Christ") and overlay upon the text "Dragon".
 

tfvespasianus

New Member
Alfred Persson,

Greetings - I am new to this board, but thought I would reply. The variant you note (i.e. 'e' versus 'on') is duly foot-noted in the bible I consult. I could even grant that your reading may be preferable. That being the case, to what extent does one critical judgement that is conceded at the outset to be one reading with variants acknowledged wholly discredit 'textual criticism'. Moreover, how does the existence of textual variants (of which this is just one example of many) square with 'providential preservation'?

As for preferring the older MMS evidence over the more recent, at times scholarship does not adhere to this as a hard-and-fast rule. As you may be aware, it is not axiomatic as in some cases (e.g. variants in Bezae) are eschewed despite the MSS being 'early'.

Take care,
TFV
 
Top