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The Law
- Thread starter Mattithyah
- Start date
Ron Hackel
Member
Latuwr
Why does everyone assume that the sin the Bible is talking about is our physical acts and not what we think about God's character? Since God is unconditional love there are no conditions that can bring about a separation between us and God. Someone asked me where I saw in Scripture that God was unconditional love. That is the definition of agape love. It was the Greek word that the apostles used to describe the love Jesus had. It was a word that the Greeks came up with to describe an unattainable love, because it required nothing in return from the one loving. For humans this is basically impossible. We love if the other person responds in like fashion. If we become betrayed our love can soon turn to one of extreme hate. God is proving freewill to be undesirable. God proves things by letting us experience the consequence of our actions.
ZECHARIAH 4 : 6 "Not by might nor power, but by my Spirit."
As a God of love he demands nothing. Think about it. All god's laws are perfect. What he suggests is always going to be the best possible decision. When we go against his advice we fail. sometimes big failures, sometimes small, but we fail. It is called God's wrath. Paul said it was God letting us go, doing it our way. It always turns out bad and Satan has said to our minds, "See God is showing you his wrath." God is simply letting you do what you want. That's love, right? Lucifer said that God's created beings should have freewill. If God doesn't demand obedience, how does he prove Lucifer wrong? He created us to demonstrate the flaws in freewill. As long as we have freewill we are slaves to Satan. God said he was made perfect in wisdom. We are no match for his suggestions to our minds. He knows exactly what lies will sway each individual mind. God in proving freewill a faulty idea has kept a few from being controlled by Satan. As Paul said that God made out of the same lump of dough some for noble purposes (prophets) and some for common. Most have to be common because otherwise Lucifer would not have been given a fair chance to prove his claims. God has kept the few because this earth is going to explode in the near future proving the fallacy of another of Lucifer's claims that he could rule in a superior fashion than God. His way is the law of greed, in contrast to God's law of love (law of giving, everyone lives to give). God is big time into recycling-all the cycles on earth. he has used us as a demonstration and just before it blows he is coming back to save any of us not afraid to come to him to be saved. Unfortunately people that believe in a punishing God will be doomed.
Why does everyone assume that the sin the Bible is talking about is our physical acts and not what we think about God's character? Since God is unconditional love there are no conditions that can bring about a separation between us and God. Someone asked me where I saw in Scripture that God was unconditional love. That is the definition of agape love. It was the Greek word that the apostles used to describe the love Jesus had. It was a word that the Greeks came up with to describe an unattainable love, because it required nothing in return from the one loving. For humans this is basically impossible. We love if the other person responds in like fashion. If we become betrayed our love can soon turn to one of extreme hate. God is proving freewill to be undesirable. God proves things by letting us experience the consequence of our actions.
ZECHARIAH 4 : 6 "Not by might nor power, but by my Spirit."
As a God of love he demands nothing. Think about it. All god's laws are perfect. What he suggests is always going to be the best possible decision. When we go against his advice we fail. sometimes big failures, sometimes small, but we fail. It is called God's wrath. Paul said it was God letting us go, doing it our way. It always turns out bad and Satan has said to our minds, "See God is showing you his wrath." God is simply letting you do what you want. That's love, right? Lucifer said that God's created beings should have freewill. If God doesn't demand obedience, how does he prove Lucifer wrong? He created us to demonstrate the flaws in freewill. As long as we have freewill we are slaves to Satan. God said he was made perfect in wisdom. We are no match for his suggestions to our minds. He knows exactly what lies will sway each individual mind. God in proving freewill a faulty idea has kept a few from being controlled by Satan. As Paul said that God made out of the same lump of dough some for noble purposes (prophets) and some for common. Most have to be common because otherwise Lucifer would not have been given a fair chance to prove his claims. God has kept the few because this earth is going to explode in the near future proving the fallacy of another of Lucifer's claims that he could rule in a superior fashion than God. His way is the law of greed, in contrast to God's law of love (law of giving, everyone lives to give). God is big time into recycling-all the cycles on earth. he has used us as a demonstration and just before it blows he is coming back to save any of us not afraid to come to him to be saved. Unfortunately people that believe in a punishing God will be doomed.
Ron Hackel
Member
Latuwr
God is love. In Isaiah 6 God has Isaiah prophesy something. Whenever God had somebody prophesy something it came to pass. Why would God tell him, to have the people not hear, see or understand? God was allowing freewill. As long as you have freewill you are open to Satan's suggestions-basically a slave because he is the greatest con artist ever. If you read how long, as Isaiah asked, you'll see until the end of the world. That is the point that Lucifer's claims are proven wrong.
God is love. In Isaiah 6 God has Isaiah prophesy something. Whenever God had somebody prophesy something it came to pass. Why would God tell him, to have the people not hear, see or understand? God was allowing freewill. As long as you have freewill you are open to Satan's suggestions-basically a slave because he is the greatest con artist ever. If you read how long, as Isaiah asked, you'll see until the end of the world. That is the point that Lucifer's claims are proven wrong.
Ron Hackel
Member
Latuwr
If you don't believe what I'm saying consider what the J.W. believe. In Revelation John sees the new world created by God and he sees no more seas. Our oceans were in the core of the earth before the earth ruptured and released the fountains of the deep. The J.W.'s don't believe in a new earth and say this verse is John seeing no more wicked people because there is a verse in Psalm's that says a wicked man is like a troubled sea. John sees no more seas-so no wicked men. It is not the just the sea, but a TROUBLED sea that is like a wicked man. Satan can lead you to believe in even the most absurd idea. I think Paul referred to this psalm in talking about being tossed about by all different kinds of thoughts. Not a cop out, but maybe none of you will understand until the second coming when this truth is going out to all that ever lived.
If you don't believe what I'm saying consider what the J.W. believe. In Revelation John sees the new world created by God and he sees no more seas. Our oceans were in the core of the earth before the earth ruptured and released the fountains of the deep. The J.W.'s don't believe in a new earth and say this verse is John seeing no more wicked people because there is a verse in Psalm's that says a wicked man is like a troubled sea. John sees no more seas-so no wicked men. It is not the just the sea, but a TROUBLED sea that is like a wicked man. Satan can lead you to believe in even the most absurd idea. I think Paul referred to this psalm in talking about being tossed about by all different kinds of thoughts. Not a cop out, but maybe none of you will understand until the second coming when this truth is going out to all that ever lived.
Hi Ron Hackel,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Thank you for your responses. You made this comment concerning ELOHIM in writing to me:
"As a God of love he demands nothing."
Do you consider this New Commandment a nothing demand?:
John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Love according to My Messiah Yahushua is the fulfillment of Law:
John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 15:9-10
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
So, according to Yahushua, LOVE is commandment keeping.
The Apostle Paul teaches the same as Yahushua about LOVE:
Romams 13:10
10 The love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore the love is the fulfilling of law.
Where did you get the idea that ELOHIM, who is an ELOHIM of Love, makes no demands of us?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Thank you for your responses. You made this comment concerning ELOHIM in writing to me:
"As a God of love he demands nothing."
Do you consider this New Commandment a nothing demand?:
John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Love according to My Messiah Yahushua is the fulfillment of Law:
John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 15:9-10
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
So, according to Yahushua, LOVE is commandment keeping.
The Apostle Paul teaches the same as Yahushua about LOVE:
Romams 13:10
10 The love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore the love is the fulfilling of law.
Where did you get the idea that ELOHIM, who is an ELOHIM of Love, makes no demands of us?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Hi Ron Hackel,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You wrote to me:
"God is love."
What this means to me is that ELOHIM is an ELOHIM of commandment keeping, who makes covenants with HIS Friends and expects HIS Friends to also keep HIS commandments.
This ELOHIM of love gave the Children of Israel this commandment through Moses:
Deuteronomy 30:15-16
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love YAHWEH thy ELOHIM, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and YAHWEH thy ELOHIM shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deuteronomy 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Obviously, the record indicates that the Children of Israel chose life for themselves and for their children. With what result? This Scripture does speak against them:
Psalms 53:2-3
2 ELOHIM looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek ELOHIM.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
So the Children of Israel as well as the Children of men can choose to do good, that is, they can choose to keep the Law, but they cannot follow through on their choice, and so they all have done evil, and thereby by their evil action actually have chosen death for themselves. As a result, all have physically died from Moses to Yahushua (with the possible exception of EliYah). What this tells me is simply that all men have the appearance of freedom of choice, but that men are really slaves to sin. They can choose to do good, but they cannot do it?
A truly free man can choose to do good and then go on to accomplish the good that they have chosen. Can a man be made free?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You wrote to me:
"God is love."
What this means to me is that ELOHIM is an ELOHIM of commandment keeping, who makes covenants with HIS Friends and expects HIS Friends to also keep HIS commandments.
This ELOHIM of love gave the Children of Israel this commandment through Moses:
Deuteronomy 30:15-16
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love YAHWEH thy ELOHIM, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and YAHWEH thy ELOHIM shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deuteronomy 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Obviously, the record indicates that the Children of Israel chose life for themselves and for their children. With what result? This Scripture does speak against them:
Psalms 53:2-3
2 ELOHIM looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek ELOHIM.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
So the Children of Israel as well as the Children of men can choose to do good, that is, they can choose to keep the Law, but they cannot follow through on their choice, and so they all have done evil, and thereby by their evil action actually have chosen death for themselves. As a result, all have physically died from Moses to Yahushua (with the possible exception of EliYah). What this tells me is simply that all men have the appearance of freedom of choice, but that men are really slaves to sin. They can choose to do good, but they cannot do it?
A truly free man can choose to do good and then go on to accomplish the good that they have chosen. Can a man be made free?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Ron Hackel
Member
Latuwr
Am I correct that you don't put any value to the New Testament? God gave the Jews the god they desired. It was not really God. He disguised himself as a pagan god because they would not accept the God he was. If you only have the Old Testament to go by it is very difficult for anyone to understand the truth. The verse you gave in Psalm 53, Paul used in saying that the Jews were no better than the Gentiles, that both were under sin.
If you read Psalm 78:32 it said the Jewish sin was not trusting in a loving God. They never believed God would do the next thing for them. For the first couple of months they grumbled about everything that was happening to them, but as a loving Father he simply did what was needed. What happened after Mount Sinai? If anyone grumbled it was no longer the loving Father it was a legalistic pagan god that was presented them. This god they could believe in!
Both the Jews and Gentiles sacrificed to appease their gods. Now you'll respond that god wanted the sacrifices it was the way the Jews sacrificed that God was mad at. They didn't have the right attitude or something. Satan has the access to all our minds to make suggestions. This is one and is not even a good one.
ISAIAH 66 : 3 "But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck."
Unless you think murder and animal cruelty is acceptable this is a harsh indictment against sacrifice.
The Jews covenant with God was for them to introduce the true character of God to the world and they failed.
HOSEA 6 : 6&7 "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and ACKNOWLEDGMENT of God rather than burnt offerings. Like Adam, they have broken the covenant-they were unfaithful to me there."
As Adam the Jews would not believe in a loving God. Adam ran and hid when God came into the garden to talk to him. They ran from their loving Father. And, they didn't hide because they were nude. They had covered themselves. Adam said he felt naked. This is symbolic for feeling that God was mad at you.
ISAIAH 61 : 10 "For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness."
So to be unclothed you feel unrighteous, that God is mad at you. Paul wrote that there was no one righteous because they didn't understand God-that he is total love.
PSALM 51 : 16 "You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings."
This is your man David. Do you doubt him? Tell me do you know of any loving fathers that want their children to bring them gifts because they think it is the only way he could possibly love them? The Christians don't have a clue either as you can tell from MC. Jesus was the end of the law. Not the ten Commandments, but legal way of presenting them. God is love and Jesus came to show that God. The Jews were deathly afraid of the god that came down on Mount Sinai and told Moses that they'd obey him but Moses would have to be the go between.
DEUTERONOMY 18 : 17 "The Lord said to me: What they say is good. I will raise up a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him."
Jesus was that prophet.
ISAIAH 1 : 11-12 "The multitude of your sacrifices-what are they to me? says the Lord. I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you appear before me, who asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me."
Satan takes the words meaningless and puts in your mind that the people hadn't put the right attitude into it. Shame on the Jews for being so gullible. God is love and they like the rest of mankind have trouble accepting that because that is not our nature. It is not our nature because God has allowed us to have freewill in order to show the fallacy of it. With it we can not help but have this kind of nature. We are free to decide for ourselves what is good or evil in our own minds. What does ISIS think is evil and what does the western world think is evil? Only an all knowing God can orchestrate billions of beings so that all decisions are best for all. And as God said in Zechariah 4:6, Not by power nor might but by my Spirit. God does not demand you believe him.
Ron
Am I correct that you don't put any value to the New Testament? God gave the Jews the god they desired. It was not really God. He disguised himself as a pagan god because they would not accept the God he was. If you only have the Old Testament to go by it is very difficult for anyone to understand the truth. The verse you gave in Psalm 53, Paul used in saying that the Jews were no better than the Gentiles, that both were under sin.
If you read Psalm 78:32 it said the Jewish sin was not trusting in a loving God. They never believed God would do the next thing for them. For the first couple of months they grumbled about everything that was happening to them, but as a loving Father he simply did what was needed. What happened after Mount Sinai? If anyone grumbled it was no longer the loving Father it was a legalistic pagan god that was presented them. This god they could believe in!
Both the Jews and Gentiles sacrificed to appease their gods. Now you'll respond that god wanted the sacrifices it was the way the Jews sacrificed that God was mad at. They didn't have the right attitude or something. Satan has the access to all our minds to make suggestions. This is one and is not even a good one.
ISAIAH 66 : 3 "But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck."
Unless you think murder and animal cruelty is acceptable this is a harsh indictment against sacrifice.
The Jews covenant with God was for them to introduce the true character of God to the world and they failed.
HOSEA 6 : 6&7 "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and ACKNOWLEDGMENT of God rather than burnt offerings. Like Adam, they have broken the covenant-they were unfaithful to me there."
As Adam the Jews would not believe in a loving God. Adam ran and hid when God came into the garden to talk to him. They ran from their loving Father. And, they didn't hide because they were nude. They had covered themselves. Adam said he felt naked. This is symbolic for feeling that God was mad at you.
ISAIAH 61 : 10 "For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness."
So to be unclothed you feel unrighteous, that God is mad at you. Paul wrote that there was no one righteous because they didn't understand God-that he is total love.
PSALM 51 : 16 "You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings."
This is your man David. Do you doubt him? Tell me do you know of any loving fathers that want their children to bring them gifts because they think it is the only way he could possibly love them? The Christians don't have a clue either as you can tell from MC. Jesus was the end of the law. Not the ten Commandments, but legal way of presenting them. God is love and Jesus came to show that God. The Jews were deathly afraid of the god that came down on Mount Sinai and told Moses that they'd obey him but Moses would have to be the go between.
DEUTERONOMY 18 : 17 "The Lord said to me: What they say is good. I will raise up a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him."
Jesus was that prophet.
ISAIAH 1 : 11-12 "The multitude of your sacrifices-what are they to me? says the Lord. I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you appear before me, who asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me."
Satan takes the words meaningless and puts in your mind that the people hadn't put the right attitude into it. Shame on the Jews for being so gullible. God is love and they like the rest of mankind have trouble accepting that because that is not our nature. It is not our nature because God has allowed us to have freewill in order to show the fallacy of it. With it we can not help but have this kind of nature. We are free to decide for ourselves what is good or evil in our own minds. What does ISIS think is evil and what does the western world think is evil? Only an all knowing God can orchestrate billions of beings so that all decisions are best for all. And as God said in Zechariah 4:6, Not by power nor might but by my Spirit. God does not demand you believe him.
Ron
Hi Ron Hackel,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
I am aware that Jehovah's Witnesses do profess faith in two hopes, namely, an earthly hope and a heavenly hope. Of course, the Apostle Paul contradicts their belief right here:
Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One YAHWEH, one faith, one baptism,
6 One ELOHIM and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
I did not know that the Witnesses reject the clear biblical teaching that ELOHIM will create a new heaven and new earth.
Prior to the rebellion of HaSatan and his like minded Sons of ELOHIM, the whole Cosmos was inhabited by the ELOHIM in the same manner in which we inhabit our earthly bodies. One could say that the ELOHIM were clothed by the whole of physicality, that is, the whole Universe was THEIR BODY. Perfect control of the Universe requires sufficient spirit to enliven the Universe just like sufficient spirit is required to enliven your physical body. The rebellion of HaSatan diminished the spirit of the ELOHIM, and consequently, the whole Universe was subjected to decay at that time.
All of this changed through the wonderful work of Messiah Yahushua, and eventually, there will be a new heaven and new earth, no doubt about it.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
P.S. I see that you have recently posted a response to me. My post above is a reply to your post #504.
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
I am aware that Jehovah's Witnesses do profess faith in two hopes, namely, an earthly hope and a heavenly hope. Of course, the Apostle Paul contradicts their belief right here:
Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One YAHWEH, one faith, one baptism,
6 One ELOHIM and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
I did not know that the Witnesses reject the clear biblical teaching that ELOHIM will create a new heaven and new earth.
Prior to the rebellion of HaSatan and his like minded Sons of ELOHIM, the whole Cosmos was inhabited by the ELOHIM in the same manner in which we inhabit our earthly bodies. One could say that the ELOHIM were clothed by the whole of physicality, that is, the whole Universe was THEIR BODY. Perfect control of the Universe requires sufficient spirit to enliven the Universe just like sufficient spirit is required to enliven your physical body. The rebellion of HaSatan diminished the spirit of the ELOHIM, and consequently, the whole Universe was subjected to decay at that time.
All of this changed through the wonderful work of Messiah Yahushua, and eventually, there will be a new heaven and new earth, no doubt about it.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
P.S. I see that you have recently posted a response to me. My post above is a reply to your post #504.
Ron Hackel
Member
Latuwr
You quoted the New Testament. In that case maybe we can have something to dialog about. I won't have time until tomorrow, my sister is visiting from Boston. Maybe I'll be able to share more of how Jesus and the apostles refuted the Mount Sinai God. Here is one thing for you to consider though. Paul said in Hebrews 12:21 that Moses was trembling with fear yet in Exodus 20:20, Moses tells the Jews not to be afraid that God had come to test them. I'm share Satan has an explanation to cover this, but the obvious answer at least to me, is Moses said that because he knew it really wasn't what God was like. He knew God was disguising himself as a pagan god to see if they would follow him. They wanted everything else they had in Egypt would this just be another? Compare the picture of God at the cave with Elijah and at Mount Sinai. They were complete opposites. Jesus refuted almost everything the Mount Sinai god advocated.
2 CORINTHIANS 3 : 9 "If the ministry that condemns men is glorious (10 Commandments), how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness.(righteousness being the knowledge of a loving God). Jesus basically gave the 10 Commandments at the Sermon on the Mount. He gave them as a loving Father instead of a legalistic tyrant. I have heard people say it's not the 10 suggestions but the 10 commandments. Actually it is the 10 suggestions. God is not the legalistic god shown at Mount Sinai. Since his laws are perfect he does not have to punish for people to do them. He simply allows them to fail until they figure out that he knows what he is talking about. That is how a God of love works.
Ron
Hope to hear more from you.
You quoted the New Testament. In that case maybe we can have something to dialog about. I won't have time until tomorrow, my sister is visiting from Boston. Maybe I'll be able to share more of how Jesus and the apostles refuted the Mount Sinai God. Here is one thing for you to consider though. Paul said in Hebrews 12:21 that Moses was trembling with fear yet in Exodus 20:20, Moses tells the Jews not to be afraid that God had come to test them. I'm share Satan has an explanation to cover this, but the obvious answer at least to me, is Moses said that because he knew it really wasn't what God was like. He knew God was disguising himself as a pagan god to see if they would follow him. They wanted everything else they had in Egypt would this just be another? Compare the picture of God at the cave with Elijah and at Mount Sinai. They were complete opposites. Jesus refuted almost everything the Mount Sinai god advocated.
2 CORINTHIANS 3 : 9 "If the ministry that condemns men is glorious (10 Commandments), how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness.(righteousness being the knowledge of a loving God). Jesus basically gave the 10 Commandments at the Sermon on the Mount. He gave them as a loving Father instead of a legalistic tyrant. I have heard people say it's not the 10 suggestions but the 10 commandments. Actually it is the 10 suggestions. God is not the legalistic god shown at Mount Sinai. Since his laws are perfect he does not have to punish for people to do them. He simply allows them to fail until they figure out that he knows what he is talking about. That is how a God of love works.
Ron
Hope to hear more from you.
Hi Ron Hackel,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You wrote to me:
"God gave the Jews the god they desired. It was not really God. He disguised himself as a pagan god because they would not accept the God he was."
It is written concerning YAHWEH ELOHIM:
1 Samuel 2:2
2 There is none holy as YAHWEH: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our ELOHIM.
This same YAHWEH commanded the Children of Israel to be like unto HIM:
Leviticus 20:26
26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I, YAHWEH, am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
And not only that, but My Messiah Yahushua commanded us this:
Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
If YAHWEH ELOHIM is perfect, why are you so bold to suggest that YAHWEH ELOHIM disguised HIMSELF as a pagan ELOHIM? With YAHWEH ELOHIM, what you see, is what you get!
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
You wrote to me:
"God gave the Jews the god they desired. It was not really God. He disguised himself as a pagan god because they would not accept the God he was."
It is written concerning YAHWEH ELOHIM:
1 Samuel 2:2
2 There is none holy as YAHWEH: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our ELOHIM.
This same YAHWEH commanded the Children of Israel to be like unto HIM:
Leviticus 20:26
26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I, YAHWEH, am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
And not only that, but My Messiah Yahushua commanded us this:
Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
If YAHWEH ELOHIM is perfect, why are you so bold to suggest that YAHWEH ELOHIM disguised HIMSELF as a pagan ELOHIM? With YAHWEH ELOHIM, what you see, is what you get!
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr
Ron Hackel
Member
Latuwr
Make a paper with Jesus and Mount Sinai god in separate columns.
M.S.g. said eye for eye Jesus said NO
M.S.g. said a person caught in adultery was to be stoned Jesus said I do not condemn you
M.S.g. allowed the Jews to divorce their wives and treat them as mere possessions. In Malachi God said he hates divorce.
M.S.g. brought fire down on people that confronted him Jesus rebuked James and John when they suggested it. They suggested it because that is
picture of God they had been led to believe in. Why do you think Phillip asked to see the Father? He asked because Jesus was nothing like the god they had been taught to believe in. The apostles used the word agape to describe Jesus. That word could never be used to describe the Mount Sinai picture of a god. That is why Paul said it was the end of the law. It was the end of the legalistic god. If you can't wrap your mind around that its fine. It will only cost you a thousand years in the grave. What is your thinking on the second coming? I can at least show you what Scripture says will happen and why you have to believe in a loving God.
In Acts Stephen said that God gave them over to the worship of pagan gods. Paul said in Romans 3:9-12 that the Jews were no better than the pagans that they didn't understand God.
Explain the two different pictures of a god as shown Elijah at the cave and the Jews at Mount Sinai. All the things you quoted about God are true, but what does that have to do with God giving the Jews the god they desired? What do you think Jesus came for? You don't believe the silly idea that he had to come to pay some kind of penalty as the Christians think, do you?
Make a paper with Jesus and Mount Sinai god in separate columns.
M.S.g. said eye for eye Jesus said NO
M.S.g. said a person caught in adultery was to be stoned Jesus said I do not condemn you
M.S.g. allowed the Jews to divorce their wives and treat them as mere possessions. In Malachi God said he hates divorce.
M.S.g. brought fire down on people that confronted him Jesus rebuked James and John when they suggested it. They suggested it because that is
picture of God they had been led to believe in. Why do you think Phillip asked to see the Father? He asked because Jesus was nothing like the god they had been taught to believe in. The apostles used the word agape to describe Jesus. That word could never be used to describe the Mount Sinai picture of a god. That is why Paul said it was the end of the law. It was the end of the legalistic god. If you can't wrap your mind around that its fine. It will only cost you a thousand years in the grave. What is your thinking on the second coming? I can at least show you what Scripture says will happen and why you have to believe in a loving God.
In Acts Stephen said that God gave them over to the worship of pagan gods. Paul said in Romans 3:9-12 that the Jews were no better than the pagans that they didn't understand God.
Explain the two different pictures of a god as shown Elijah at the cave and the Jews at Mount Sinai. All the things you quoted about God are true, but what does that have to do with God giving the Jews the god they desired? What do you think Jesus came for? You don't believe the silly idea that he had to come to pay some kind of penalty as the Christians think, do you?
Regal_Begal
Member
Are you sure that what you are seeing is not just that it requires a different side of God's personality to deal with sin than it does for him to deal with those that love him as he loves them?
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
That is what I see it as doing.
One cannot have it two ways, either God is the same today as yesterday and as he will be tomorrow or he isn't.
But in case you haven't noticed yet, (as I see you are new here), Ron Hackel believes that God will save absolutely every human that ever lived.
Never mind that some men have their hearts and minds fully set in loving evil. Ron thinks God yet plans to save such ones.
It is a nice idea to think that God can change absolutely everyone but the fact is that would be a ticket to all of the angels looking on to engage in evil, for why avoid these temporary pleasures if they don't hold any real and lasting consequences?
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Shalom Everyone, I would like to offer some OT Scriptures to be compared with NT Scriptures to see if Elohim changes from an evil "god" to a loving and good "god:"
Ezekiel 15:7 compared to 1 Peter 3:12
Psalms 76:7 compared to Hebrews 10:31
Psalms 90:11 compared to Luke 12:5 & Matthew 10:28
Isaiah 13:9 compared to Matthew 3:7, Luke 3:7, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, & Revelation 6:16-17
Leviticus 24:20 compared to Matthew 5:38-42 which produces Romans 12:19-20
Are we to believe that Elohim CHANGES Himself from a good "god" (before Sinai), and then to an evil "god" (after Sinai), and then back again into a good "god" after the murder/suicide of himself?
Numbers 23:19, Psalms 84:11 & Malachi 3:6 compared to Hebrews 13:8 & James 1:16-17
A reasonable examination of the above Scriptures should make it more than evident that the OT Elohim is the SAME as the NT Elohim, which Paul confirms by telling us that the Rock which accompanied the Israelites (AFTER Sinai-in the wilderness) was/is the SAME Rock of the NT, Messiah Yeshua:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4
3 Because I will publish The Name of Yahweh: ascribe ye greatness unto our Elohim.
4 [He is] The Rock, His work [is] perfect: for all His ways [are] judgment: an Elohim of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] He.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed (Exodus 40:38) them: and that Rock was Messiah.
Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew
Ezekiel 15:7 compared to 1 Peter 3:12
Psalms 76:7 compared to Hebrews 10:31
Psalms 90:11 compared to Luke 12:5 & Matthew 10:28
Isaiah 13:9 compared to Matthew 3:7, Luke 3:7, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, & Revelation 6:16-17
Leviticus 24:20 compared to Matthew 5:38-42 which produces Romans 12:19-20
Are we to believe that Elohim CHANGES Himself from a good "god" (before Sinai), and then to an evil "god" (after Sinai), and then back again into a good "god" after the murder/suicide of himself?
Numbers 23:19, Psalms 84:11 & Malachi 3:6 compared to Hebrews 13:8 & James 1:16-17
A reasonable examination of the above Scriptures should make it more than evident that the OT Elohim is the SAME as the NT Elohim, which Paul confirms by telling us that the Rock which accompanied the Israelites (AFTER Sinai-in the wilderness) was/is the SAME Rock of the NT, Messiah Yeshua:
Deuteronomy 32:3-4
3 Because I will publish The Name of Yahweh: ascribe ye greatness unto our Elohim.
4 [He is] The Rock, His work [is] perfect: for all His ways [are] judgment: an Elohim of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] He.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed (Exodus 40:38) them: and that Rock was Messiah.
Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew
Ron Hackel
Member
Wide is the highway to destruction and you all are on cruise control. The only thing that matters in salvation (which is only a thousand year vacation) is your mindset of what God is like. If you believe in a punishing God, a punishing god you shall have. What all of you don't seem to comprehend is what the second coming involves. And as long as all of you have freewill you'll be unable to fight the suggestions of your father as Jesus told the Pharisees.
Regal_Begal
Member
I agree with you.
I was looking at some of your other posts in this thread and find them very insightful.
I thought perhaps you might find the following video on Romans 7:22 interesting:
http://tv.jw.org/#video/VODProgramsEvents/pub-jwbmw_201508_2_VIDEO
I would like to speak with you concerning how the thoughts in that video fit hand and glove with much of what you have said.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
I just viewed that video.
I see that it gets the same point across that I have been trying to make but does so in a much more direct way that avoids the controversy over long held misconceptions which people are so stuck in that to address them raises their emotions, destracing them from seeing anything else. Very smart!!!
But I have found that many Witnesses speak as though they believe we are born sinners by the inherited sin idea. How do you understand that?
Also, what do you believe concerning the Omniscience doctrine? Do you believe that there is absolutely not one iota of anything that God does not know exactly will be in advance of it's coming to be?
Oh, thank you for sharing that video to me.
Regal_Begal
Member
Distracing them, huh? Cute.I just viewed that video.
I see that it gets the same point across that I have been trying to make but does so in a much more direct way that avoids the controversy over long held misconceptions which people are so stuck in that to address them raises their emotions, destracing them from seeing anything else. Very smart!!!
But I have found that many Witnesses speak as though they believe we are born sinners by the inherited sin idea. How do you understand that?
Also, what do you believe concerning the Omniscience doctrine? Do you believe that there is absolutely not one iota of anything that God does not know exactly will be in advance of it's coming to be?
Oh, thank you for sharing that video to me.
Yes, there is much difference in the way some of the witnesses tend to view those subjects. I figure that is to be expected in that each person grows at his own pace. But I think that the Society is clear enough on that and you never see them say in any of their articles that we were born actual sinners. They seem to be pretty clear about sin being a choice we make.
I will give you my short answer, first, then I will prepare something to show you why I see it as I do.
How do I understand the inherited sin doctrine? I don't believe we are born sinners but what we inherit are the weaknesses which added to the temptation of sin within this world that we are thrust into quickly results in our becoming sinners. I agree with you that sin entered the world as opposed to entered men and got passed on through childbirth. I will prepare my reasons for believing and post them to you later.
What do I believe concerning the Omniscience doctrine? I believe that there are some things God does not know until he searches the matter out. I don't believe in the fabric of time fantasy which got it's beginning in science fiction imaginative thinking of men. I believe that if God knew absolutely everything ahead then it would cancel out his need of discernment and wisdom. For it would not take discernment and wisdom to reel some imaginary fabric of time forward and backward like a strip of a movie film to see what the outcome of things would be. I will prepare scriptures to support why I believe that, also, and post them to you later.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Yes, I have noticed that difference from witness to witness and attributed it to the same thing.Distracing them, huh? Cute.
Yes, there is much difference in the way some of the witnesses tend to view those subjects. I figure that is to be expected in that each person grows at his own pace. But I think that the Society is clear enough on that and you never see them say in any of their articles that we were born actual sinners. They seem to be pretty clear about sin being a choice we make.
I will give you my short answer, first, then I will prepare something to show you why I see it as I do.
How do I understand the inherited sin doctrine? I don't believe we are born sinners but what we inherit are the weaknesses which added to the temptation of sin within this world that we are thrust into quickly results in our becoming sinners. I agree with you that sin entered the world as opposed to entered men and got passed on through childbirth. I will prepare my reasons for believing and post them to you later.
What do I believe concerning the Omniscience doctrine? I believe that there are some things God does not know until he searches the matter out. I don't believe in the fabric of time fantasy which got it's beginning in science fiction imaginative thinking of men. I believe that if God knew absolutely everything ahead then it would cancel out his need of discernment and wisdom. For it would not take discernment and wisdom to reel some imaginary fabric of time forward and backward like a strip of a movie film to see what the outcome of things would be. I will prepare scriptures to support why I believe that, also, and post them to you later.
I am in full agreement with both of your answers and say go for it on the follow up as I have been meaning to do that same thing but have not followed through as yet.
Perhaps your doing so will be better than doing so my self.
You think amazingly similar to a witness I know who shares my internet with me?
Well, actually, it is in his name.
Regal_Begal
Member
I have a friend named Malachy who shares my Internet service with me?Yes, I have noticed that difference from witness to witness and attributed it to the same thing.
I am in full agreement with both of your answers and say go for it on the follow up as I have been meaning to do that same thing but have not followed through as yet.
Perhaps your doing so will be better than doing so my self.
You think amazingly similar to a witness I know who shares my internet with me?
Well, actually, it is in his name.
Is your name Malachy?